Lords veto welfare reform bill with votes against on 3 proposals

[sadone]

Thought I'd sneek this in here as It will effect all of us....

 

Today, at 12.30pm the welfare reform bill will return to the House of Commons.

 

Let's be very clear - it is a dangerous, incomplete bill based on flawed evidence and unpleasant ideals. It is vast and impenetrable - most of the ministers arguing for it have very little understanding of the detail within it. Yes, that's right, they don't understand the details or effects of their own policies.

 

The welfare reform bill will affect every one of us, not just the "feckless scroungers" the government have led you to believe. Child benefit will be cut, tax credits for "hard working families" will be cut, tax credits for disabled children, NI credits for disabled children, we will all eventually be transferred onto Universal Credit where both parents will be expected to be in full time work when their children reach the age of 12. Everyone will face sanctions.

 

Make no mistake - this bill fatally erodes the already inadequate social security provision we have in the UK. For all the big numbers the government like to toss around, we have the lowest levels of benefits and the toughest sanctions of any developed nation. This bill is the tipping point. People are going to die and we've done everything - and more - that we possible could to highlight the most dangerous areas.

 

Rest can be read over here

 

http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.com/2012/02/vote-with-your-hearts.htm

 

[Paul the Farmer]

I'm sorry, but I find this a bit distasteful. The death of a child is a tragedy to anyone who goes through it, whatever their financial status.

[sadone]

I'm sure It is, but I find it a tad weird that someone can go through such an experience, be (at the time a millionaire of course) and yet still claim DLA, the very benefit he's now so obsessed about taking away from the rest of those who dearly need it and of course, you know, aren't millionaires.

 

But of course Cameron doesn't actually care about anyone else but the rich, does he....

Edited February 1, 2012 by sadone

[osdset]

I'm sorry, but I find this a bit distasteful. The death of a child is a tragedy to anyone who goes through it, whatever their financial status.

 

Yes it is distasteful, but so is the governments attitude with regard to welfare reform, distasteful, contemptible, and ultimately, criminal.

[grahamengineering]

Am I missing something in this bill? Essentially it is to put a cap on the amount of benifits given to one family at £26000 a year? If this is the case, what is actually wrong with that? I think most of us, long term illness or not could live a fairly good existence on that. In the cases of those staying in rented accomodation in expensive areas. Well as harsh as it sounds, if you aren't footing the bill then sorry you will have to move into cheaper accomodation. I genuinely feel this bill is something a large part of the working general public want.

[osdset]

Am I missing something in this bill? Essentially it is to put a cap on the amount of benifits given to one family at £26000 a year? If this is the case, what is actually wrong with that? I think most of us, long term illness or not could live a fairly good existence on that. In the cases of those staying in rented accomodation in expensive areas. Well as harsh as it sounds, if you aren't footing the bill then sorry you will have to move into cheaper accomodation. I genuinely feel this bill is something a large part of the working general public want.

Yes you are missing something, the bill is a bit more than placing a £26.000 cap, you seem to be under the impression that that figure is what the government proposes to pay everyone, and yes I could have a decent standard of living if I was getting, or ever had the chance to get that level of benefit, mine comes to £8.884 per year inclusive of rent and council tax, and that figure is more likely to go down than up.

[grahamengineering]

Yes you are missing something, the bill is a bit more than placing a £26.000 cap, you seem to be under the impression that that figure is what the government proposes to pay everyone, and yes I could have a decent standard of living if I was getting, or ever had the chance to get that level of benefit, mine comes to £8.884 per year inclusive of rent and council tax, and that figure is more likely to go down than up.

 

So is that rate figured on what your current rent and council tax amount is? Also is this on top of any other income you have? I am fully aware the cap is on a family income not a single person.

[count orlok]

that £26000 figure includes everything including Housing benefit child benefits etc and could leave a large family with no money to live on other than child benefits and even having to use some of that towards rent.

 

This will effect not only the "feckless and Work-shy", but "nice" middle class families who find themselves through no fault of their own find themselves on bad times. When we start seeing Lib Dem & Tory voters on the streets peoples' views will change, but it will be too late then.

[osdset]

So is that rate figured on what your current rent and council tax amount is? Also is this on top of any other income you have?

 

Actually I got the math wrong, it's less than quoted

 

52 weeks ESA @ £67.50 = £3.510

52 weeks rent @ £82.00 = £4.264

52 weeks council tax @ £20 = £1040

Total £8.814

[MARTIN3030]

"I genuinely feel this bill is something a large part of the working general public want."

 

The numbers of working general,public is dwindling,and some of them will be affected by this further down the line if it is implimented.

 

Unlike motoring forums issues,members posting here have little choice or recourse if these plans are introduced.

Many cant even afford to run a car...........

Be careful what you post in this forum,and if you are questioning those who do,I think you need to be doing so with an understanding of those posting here.

[grahamengineering]

Wait a minute orlok, 26k take home is a bloody good wage if you are working. If you cannot survive on that then your family budgeting cant be up to much. The tax paying general public in the largest part plan their family taking into account their own financial circumstances. If they are in receipt of £26k child benifit PRIOR to anything else then frankly no I don't think they deserve more. I think the politicians actually know the working general public are behind them on this.

[Nystagmite]

£26 really isn't that much when you think about it:

It's £500 a week. Out of that, you must pay for everything. If you're a single parent, you'll get (from April) £71 for you, child benefit around £20 a week, rent, (which for some is a huge chunk- I don't live in an expensive are and rent for a 2 bedroom flat is around £115 a week) council tax and money for your child.

 

If you earn £26k and are working, you're entitled to child tax credit, which can be quite a lot if you have a few children. This is why I don't agree with it.

 

It shouldn't be one size fits all. It should depend on where you live and the amount of children you have.

[sadone]

Well that includes private rents which are (for a large family) very expensive, But hey why tackle greedy landlords when you can take it out on families instead.

[Nystagmite]

The maximum rent you can get under LHA is £400 (for 4 bedrooms) that means you've only got £100 a week for everything else.

[grahamengineering]

Osdset, I know what you get to keep yourself isn't a lot of money. But it is reasonably enough to feed & cloth you and keep you warm if you are living in a 1 bedroom house. I know this because I've done it. Benefit isn't to give you any more than enough to survive on. Nystagamite, The government has a duty to taxpayers too. It has to be seen as being fair to everyone. I strongly believe responsible people take their family salary into account prior to having children. If a person cannot live on 26k take home a year even with 6 kids there is something wrong with their budgeting. If you cannot afford the rent on the large house your in, then sorry if I'm footing the bill move into a different area where you can. A landlord can ask as much as he likes, If nobody has the money for his property then it remains empty and he gets nothing. This is exactly what is wrong with the welfare system in its present form. It is being seen as an extension of your salary instead of what it should be, a safety net if something goes wrong.

[Nystagmite]

What about those who come into a situation out of their control? I've lost count of the amount of people I've met who had children when they were married and then split. Leaving them as single parents and having to survive on benefits.

 

Surely, we should be looking at reducing the rates of rent instead of forcing people to just get by on benefits.

[grahamengineering]

Sorry about no paragraphs, for some reason I'm writing in paragraphs but when I press post it is all clumped together. Any ideas?

[sadone]

Well, lets analyse it, then.

 

Firstly, it's a benefit cap per household, not per person. So, lets take a family of two adults and three children. Rent for a four bedroom house in Kingston is around £400 a month or £20,000 a year. Take off another £1,000 for Council tax and that leaves you with £5,000 or around £100 a week. For five people. So, £20 per person per week. And this is for Gas, Electric, Water, Food, Clothes (a constant expense with three children), etc.

[MIKEY DABODEE]

at the moment that lone parent with six children is getting at least £32k per year with HB and CT so £26k cap will be a big drop in the household budget for

them

Edited February 1, 2012 by MIKEY DABODEE

[osdset]

This is actually quite clever of the government, they have successfully planted the idea that this magic figure of £26.000 is now a universal benefit rate.

IMHO £26.000 is a pretty poor annual rate of pay, it looks good because things are desperate, have a word with any MP and see if they would accept that as a wage, my trade before I had to give up work was a carpenter, I have just done a quick bit of math, and if the annual wage for my trade in 1980 had kept up with inflation, carpenters would now be on £1.500 per week or £78.000 per annum. By the way I gave up work three years ago not in 1980!

[grahamengineering]

Sadone I count £400 x 12 months as £4800.

[sadone]

Sorry that should be £400 a week.

 

This is actually quite clever of the government, they have successfully planted the idea that this magic figure of £26.000 is now a universal benefit rate.

IMHO £26.000 is a pretty poor annual rate of pay, it looks good because things are desperate, have a word with any MP and see if they would accept that as a wage, my trade before I had to give up work was a carpenter, I have just done a quick bit of math, and if the annual wage for my trade in 1980 had kept up with inflation, carpenters would now be on £1.500 per week or £78.000 per annum.

 

Yep I totally agree. But the bill is more then just a cap, It involves all areas of benefit including time limiting those on ESA despite cries from many disability groups.

[grahamengineering]

You genuinely think £26k take home a year as poor? Come on how many carpenters have you heard of on £78k a year?

[Nystagmite]

You genuinely think £26k take home a year as poor? Come on how many carpenters have you heard of on £78k a year?

 

Of course, that does depend on your situation and where you live.

[grahamengineering]

So you don't think sadone, that if somebody else is footing the bill a person should move out of lovely kingston and their £400 a week rented house, and into something more affordable? What the new bill is saying is that if the average working class family can't afford to live in houses like the one you describe. In the interests of fairness why should someone getting their rent paid for them!