Great relationship between HSBC and FOS, any possible collusion?***Settled***

[sharburrys]

Hello Everyone

 

I would like to share my terrible experience with you all... HSBC and then the Ombudsman....

 

My concern started in October 2009...

personally I am a Financial Analyst and decided to invest some money in a HSBC Invest Direct (share dealing) account, which is DD to my HSBC Plus account, which means I have got 2 different contract with HSBC.

 

I made quite few thousands in couple of years...

In October 2009 unfortunately I was diagnoised with swine flu and could not manage to get out of the bed, in the meanwhile few days before couple of my orders were executed and which made me overdrawn £5,750 in my HSBC Plus current account but considering I have got £1,500 authorised overdraft limit and appx £15,000 worth shares in my Invest Direct account....

 

HSBC started to charge me around £398 in 2 months and then decided to sell my shares and suspend my account... The contract says:

 

HSBC Invest Direct: If you do not have sufficient funds in your account, HSBC has got rights to sell your shares....

 

HSBC Plus account says: I have got an authorised overdraft limit of £1500 and excessive use of this limit will be penalised with daily interest + fees (which does not state any kind of how much unauthorised you can go up to)

 

 

Wait for this...

 

I was overdrawn around £5,750 from which I have got an authorised overdraft limit of £1,500 and they sold a total of £6,145 worth shares in 2009... and also they suspended my share dealing account for around 10 days in which I had around another £9K worth shares....

 

I tried to contact HSBC and proceed my complaint and of course dont be naive... NO result.... when has anyone seen to get a result with their complaints in the first step...

 

I tried to contact the person who authorised to sell my shares, and asked him why he sold more than even the overdraft? his answer was:

 

"We left you a budget for your daily expenditures"

I asked him if he has ever seen me paying any bills from my account?

he said "No"

 

I took this case to the Ombudsman.... Great big Ombudsman... only 500-600meters away from HSBC headquarter....

 

3 adjudicator amazingly found HSBC within their terms and conditions....

I appealed and requested a "Final Decision".... in August 2010....

Mr Ombudsman took my case as the adjudicators are not allowed to give the final decision....

He took his time and in February 2011... he gave a "Provisional Decision" of fair compensation for me his words were:

"A = Total amount sold

B = Unauthorised overdraft (which means - £1,500 of authorised overdraft)

C = A - B

So I was supposed to be getting C amount of shares in todays value as compensation ....

When I proved that my C amount of shares are worth £6,750 in todays value (current BBC prices), I think they did not like that...

 

Then what happened....

 

Final Decision came in October 2011... NO COMPENSATION given and HSBC has rights to do so???

 

I took it further and went to the Independent Asssessor.... No result.....

 

upppss sorry, I should not say like that... here is the result I got:

 

The Great Big Ombudsman sent me a cheque of £100 as an appology as it took 21 months to come to this conclusion (if you consider average handling time for each case is 6 months) ... I call it as "Consolation Prize" Keep quite son! we give you £100 go and have a glass of wine, which will cool you down

 

What I dont understand is; if I used my credit card and bought lots of stuff and gone overdrawn, what would have happened? I dont expect HSBC would come and cease my clothes or the stuff I bought?

Even if they were right (which they are not) why did they charge me £398 for an unauthorised overdraft fee + Interest + daily charges?

It is a service that I have not received and why did they sell my shares?

 

I dont really know what happened between Feb and October 2011 but it is not really surprising especially if you consider HSBC HeadQuarter and Financial Ombudsman is only 2-3 street far away each other....

 

May be a nice lunch break in an expensive restaurant or a small coffee shop will be a great place to negotiate??? What do you think????

 

Anyway I really dont know what to do??? I tried to contact the media sources, tried everything... Sky, BBC, ITV Daily Mail, FT, etc... even Daybreak and Lorraine no response....

 

I would really appreciate if anyone can help me as I ran out of my options... Btw European Ombudsman is not even bothered about it, they are more interested in Euro then GBP

 

Kind regards

[citizenB]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?826-How-Can-BCOB-Protect-You-From-Your-Bank-s-Unfair-Treatmen

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?824-Does-your-bank-play-fair

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?825-BCOB-the-hidden-rules

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?827-Examples-of-unfair-treament

 

Have a read of the articles listed above - they can be found in CAGmagazine. If you believe you have been treated unfairly, then perhaps you could use BCOBs

[sharburrys]

Hi there

 

Thank you for your response

 

It was a really useful article...

 

I have got only 2 questions:

 

1- I am not quite sure if I am being emotional about the case or do I really have a good case to pursue? It is really difficult to be object with your own matters? What is your opinion about the story above?

 

2- If I take the legal action based on BCOBS and lose it, will I be responsible for the legal costs of the other side?

 

Also in case if HSBC decides to bring up FOS Final Decision; would it influence the outcome?

 

Kind regards

[BankFodder]

• it depends on whether or not the case is allocated to the Small Claim Track. If the case is low value - less than £5000 then it is probably a small claim.
  
• I'm sure that the bank would refer to the FOS decision - but firstly FOS decisions are not binding and secondly you are merely asking the judge to decide if the HSBC acted unfairly. It certainly seems to me that by unilaterally arranging a reserve fund for you that this is beyond what they are entitled to do. To arrange it on an account which as you say has never been used to pay any bills is really very puzzling indeed - to say the least. The apparent change of mind goes strongly in your favour.
  
• There is a big chance that faced with a legal action , that the bank would settle rather than risk a BCOBS judgment
  
• I would hope that you would let us know if that happened - although the bank would try to impose confidentiality. It would be hugely humiliating for the FOS to find that the bank had given you your settlement in the face of court action when they had been prepared to bluff it out in the face of the FOS. I think that would tell us everything about the usefulness (not) of the FOS. I can imagine that in a court action on BCOBS, that the FOS would very firmly be rooting for the bank.
  

 

As for being caught in your emotions, I don't think that you should start accusing the FOS of collusion. I can scarcely imagine that is true. But certainly from the reports we get here they seem to be mediocre. Remember of course, that this is a place where people come to complain. There isn't much good news on this site.

However over the years I have had the impression that the FOS is over-cautious, protective of themselves and tries to unsettle the banking industry as little as possible. They certainly aren't about being an instrument for change in the entire industry. They are merely about trying to deal with each case.

I also think that they allow themselves to be mocked by the Industry and they don't seem to have the will to do much about it.

[sharburrys]

Woow guys thank you very much,

It is the first time I am trying this website and amazing ideas...

I was awake yesterday till around 12 and read lots of other cases... fantastic ideas and great communication...

It is what we (cosnumers) need, increasing the synergy will break down the oligopolic power in between banks...

 

I will start the court action on Monday and will let you know how it goes... My concern is the fact that individuals dont know anything and trusting the Ombudsman... But these guys dont seem doing what they were supposed to be doing? Can we not take it to the media's attention?

 

I have not got an answer to my second question about if I lose the court case, will I be responsible for the other party's legal expenses? Then I can weigh the risk and the return?

 

As a matter of interest; yesterday I was reading other cases on this site; I am also quite interested in the PPI charges and reclaims on MBNA and HSBC credit cards... but they are dated back in 2009 and 2010? Can anyone please kindly send me the link for the current dates and recent results and I will have clue how to start my claim, at the moment I am all over the place... I read lots of cases with HSBC and Barclaycard but they dont seem to respond to SAR or CCA requests properly; it will be great to know the straight forward requests?

 

Thank you very much everyone for your help... Keep in touch.... Fingers crossed I will update you with the results

 

Kind regards

[citizenB]

sharburry, the response to your questions re costs

 

it depends on whether or not the case is allocated to the small claim Track. If the case is low value - less than £5000 then it is probably a small claim.

 

Costs are limited in small claims .

 

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_rights/legal_system_index_ew/small_claims.htm

 

http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/procedure-rules/civil/

[citizenB]

 

As a matter of interest; yesterday I was reading other cases on this site; I am also quite interested in the PPI charges and reclaims on MBNA and HSBC credit cards... but they are dated back in 2009 and 2010? Can anyone please kindly send me the link for the current dates and recent results and I will have clue how to start my claim, at the moment I am all over the place... I read lots of cases with HSBC and Barclaycard but they dont seem to respond to SAR or CCA requests properly; it will be great to know the straight forward requests?

 

Kind regards

 

Not quite sure what you mean here. If you want to make a claim in respect of PPI you would first identify if it was mis sold to you.

 

If so, then you would complete a spreadsheet with all the charges - so you would need statements if a credit card or know the amount of upfront

premium if it were a loan.

 

You will find draft SAR letters in the CAG library, linked at the top of each screen.

 

Once you are ready with your figures, complete a spread sheet, download the complaint form from the FOS website then send everything off to the bank asking for your money back.

 

If you look at the PPI success thread, you can click on a user link and see how they started their claims.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?88004-PPI-Successes

 

Suggest you go to the last posts on the thread as they will be the most current.

 

You can also look in the PPI forums for individual threads that are ongoing.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?111-Payment-Protection-Insurance-(PPI)

 

HTH

[sharburrys]

Thank you very much for your help everyone...

 

I will go and have a look at it very carefully and calculate and open the case tomorrow.. I promise I will update you with the outcome with the small claims court....

 

I believe that I was mis-sold the credit card PPI, as I was a full time student at the time I signed my paperworks also I did not have a clue what PPI was, they did not mention anything about it... I am not quite sure but I read an article the other day which says if you are studying, you were not supposed to be buying a PPI on your account and credit cards etc..

 

 

Thank you very much once again,

 

Kind regards

[sharburrys]

Hi everyone

 

Just wanted to update you all that I have taken the legal action against HSBC and county court claim has been filed. I received a letter from DG solicitors to acknowledge the claim and informing me that the defendant will defend himself and refuse to pay any such claims....

 

I am not quite sure but I have heard that these guys normally threatened individuals to reflect their costs of the claim etc.

 

Has anyone experienced with these guys before, better the devil you know than devil you dont;) I can prepare my case towards their weaknesses.

 

Thanks

[citizenB]

What exactly have you issued your claim for?

 

And what have you done with respect to the PPI, does that form part of your claim.

[sharburrys]

Hi CitizenB

 

Thank you for your response, sorry had a bit problem with my connection,

 

I filled the case against HSBC for BCOBS on 15th January 2012 but I also sent an SAR to HSBC on 9th January 2012, HSBC's solicitors DG contatced me stating that they acknowledged and defending themselves.

 

I have written a letter and sent them saying "thank you for your letter but please advise your clients HSBC to comply my SAR request which was sent on 9th January 2012"

 

I received a phone call last Friday 27th Jan and the lady from HSBC UK DATA collection team and asked me what accounts would you put your request for and I said all my accounts, Credit cards, Current account and Invest Direct acoount including all the pages for the application when I was opening with a breakdown of all the charges including PPI as well as the Credit Check result when I opened my Invest Direct aco****;

 

Her response was " she can not do the PPI and the breakdown of the charges because it is a different department who deals with PPI request" and I requested to pull my conversation with her she said it is not recorded?

 

I sent another letter to DG below Mr XXXX is myself:

 

 

Dear Mrs Solicitor

Mr Yilmazkaya has received a phone call from your client HSBC Plc, Mrs SSSS – UK Data Compliance department today’s date 27th January 2012 at 09:36am and this conversation lasted for 12 minutes. Mrs SSS took Mr XXXXX through the security check and this was duly passed.

Sue Hancock asked Mr XXXX what accounts he would like to process his SAR request for, which was originally requested on 9th January 2012 by Mr XXXX.

Mr XXXX’s response was: “I would like to have all my contracts, correspondence and telephone conversations regarding my HSBC Invest Direct, HSBC Current account (then which was changed to HSBC Plus) and HSBC credit card, with the full terms and conditions as well asa full break down of all the charges applied to these accounts with PPI (Payment Protection Insurance).

Mrs SSSS’s response was “she was unable to provide PPI charges and the contract to Mr XXXXX as it was held in a different Data Protection Unit and therefore different terms and conditions apply.”

Please advice your client, HSBC Plc to comply with Mr XXXXX’s request of SAR dated on 9th January 2012 and enclosed with a payment of £10 cheque to cover this request. Your client should be able to provide us the documents requested, failure of this basic request may jeopardise the contractual duties of HSBC Plc which may raise concerns whether HSBC Plc is empowered to do what they have done?

This unforeseen circumstance caused a substantial financial loss to Mr XXXXX, therefore we would like to make sure your client understands very clearly what Mr XXXX's request of SAR also includes:

1- The application form which was signed by Mr XXXXX while he was opening his HSBC student account. This application form should have the back and front pages with all questionnaires including the full terms and conditions at the time it was proceed.

2- The application form which was signed by Mr XXXX when he opened his Invest Direct Account. This application form should have the back and front pages with all questionnaires including the full terms and conditions at the time it was proceed. As we are aware that HSBC Plc also went for a Credit Score check for Mr XXXX’s request, all the copies of this credit check results included.

3- The application form which was signed by Mr XXXX when he opened his HSBC Credit Card. This application form should have the back and front pages with all questionnaires including the full terms and conditions at the time it was proceed

4- A copy of all Mr XXXX’s telephone conversations between 1st October 2009 and March 2010 which includes outgoing and incoming calls from or to Mr XXXX as well as his correspondence and conversations with Mr yyyyyyy at the time he was responsible as xxxx's account manager and who also accepted to authorise selling Mr XXXXX’s shares from his Invest Direct account and the conversation with ZZZZZZ (HSBC Compliance department).

5- A copy of email/ letter or a copy of telephone conversation between HSBC Plc – Mr YYYYY (account manager), and HSBC Invest Direct which was concluded with a demand of selling XXXX’s shares, with a break down (calculation) what is this request based on? As the amount of shares were sold excessively at the time.

6- Breakdown of every single charges applied to XXXX’s HSBC Invest Direct Account, HSBC Student Account( then which was changed to Plus Account) and HSBC Credit Card since the account was opened.

Mr XXXX will appreciate if your client HSBC Plc has any further queries, please make sure your client HSBC Plc contacts Mr XXXXXX on 11111111, on a call which ought to be recorded by HSBC Plc.

We believe that Mrs SSSS’s response of being unable to provide the break down of the charges especially for PPI charges is not a valid reason; Mr XXXXX has right to request information from every single department of HSBC Plc as long as related to any of his accounts we would appreciate your client’s co-operation in this matter.

We look forward to hearing from you within the time scale which was included in our previous letter – please find the enclosed copy – evidence 1

Kind regards

[sharburrys]

Hi everyone;

 

I just wanted to update you that HSBC put their defense stating that it is in their terms and conditions to sell my shares and also Financial Ombudsman's decision was in their favour... but nothing about they sold them excessively....

 

I am preparing my case together and hopefully I will give you the good news soon ....

 

Citizen I need a quick help if you are still there? I would appreciate a prompt advice?

 

I have just received a box of documents in response to my SAR; but it seems really complicated and thousands of pages....

 

How can I see whether I was paying PPI or not?

 

For example it states in one of the documents:

 

17th June 2010 INTEREST £49.50

17th June 2010 INTEREST £1.49

 

Nothing is written about PPI? but I am 100% sure that they charged PPI when I was penalized to go overdrawn they charged me £25 per transaction in a day, so I was paying £175 a month for good 6 months?

 

Is this the new style they have created to avoid paying PPI charges back to the consumers?

 

Where can I actually see the PPI charges or is there any other name they are using?

 

Regards

[citizenB]

You need to look for statements - if you were paying PPI, it will be indicated on there.

 

Or you could look to see if the contract you signed is included, again it will indicate if PPI was applied at the beginning of the account.

 

I dont understand the reference to the two different interest rates. The £25.00 charges for going overdrawn is not PPI either.

 

PPI is an Insurance product which is supposed to protect you in the event you were unwell or unemployed during the term of the loan / credit card.

 

Interest is applied to the account as agreed at the time you entered into the agreement.

[sharburrys]

Thank you CitizenB for your help

 

I could not see the PPI in my statements and they sent me a copy of my contract it does not mention anything about PPI? I was reading all the threads on the site and people are talking about a PPI box was ticked in their contract or with small print covering PPI charges but in my contract dated 2008 does not look anything like that - this is for my credit card

 

On the other hand my bank account used to be a student account and turned to be a premier account and it is all done over the phone and no signature there and nothing about PPI charges again? I am a bit confused the fact that why they have not provided me the copy of my contract when I made the application for graduate account (student) in the first place rather than sending me the terms and conditions of the premier account?

 

Really confused, it seems 2 different charge for the same day every month? called interest?

 

What can I do next?

 

Regards

[citizenB]

If they havent provided you with the terms and conditions, you should contact them again and ask

[sharburrys]

Hi CitizenB

 

I hope you are well, I have just received DG, (HSBC's solicitors) defense for the court case; they request the case to be stroke out. as the claimant (myself) has no prospects of success? I am a bit worried, these guys seem quite confident? What can I do?

 

I already put my claim for BCOBS and stated that I was overdrawn around £5,750 and had a overdraft limit of £1,500 and they sold around £6,000 which made my account +£350? HSBC never provided a letter or the transcripts of the phone calls shows that HSBC wanted me to put my overdraft back to the normal limit of £1500? and provided the court all the evidence? so how can they request it to be stroke off??

 

Thanks

[sharburrys]

Hi Citizen B

 

I would like to ask your help if it is possible....

 

I have just received my paper work from court against HSBC (BCOBS)

 

Their request is as follows:

 

1- The claimant's (myself) claim to be struck out pursuant CPR3.4(2) (a) and 3.4(2) (b)

2- There be judgement for the defendant pursuant to CPR24

3- Defendant's costs incurred and ocasssioned as a result of this claim and application to be summarily assessed by the court and paid by the claimant forthwith

 

 

 

Would you be able to help me and explain what they are?

 

Regards

[citizenB]

These are the CPRs they are referring to I have included the link to the court website so you know where to find these.

 

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part03#IDAML0HC

 

Power to strike out a statement of case

3.4

(1) In this rule and rule 3.5, reference to a statement of case includes reference to part of a statement of case.

(2) The court may strike out(GL) a statement of case if it appears to the court –

(a) that the statement of case discloses no reasonable grounds for bringing or defending the claim;

(b) that the statement of case is an abuse of the court’s process or is otherwise likely to obstruct the just disposal of the proceedings; or

 

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part24

CPR24 is summary judgment - so they are in effect asking the judge to strike out your claim by way of Summary judgment ie.. without a full trial.

 

I am just going to have a read back over your thread.

 

[citizenB]

Sharburry, I am going to flag your thread and the queries for others to look at.

 

What other kind of defence have HSBC entered ? In your post #16 you advise that they have entered a defence and asked for your claim to be struck out. and again in post # 17 this is the same. But have they actually entered any defence other than what is above. ?

[citizenB]

I am also puzzled as to the change of decision by the Ombudsman.. it appeared initially that you were to be refunded shares at the value at that time.. but then the final decision was that you were only entidled to £100.00 compensation from the ombudsman.

 

Someting is not quite right.

 

Is there a court hearing date yet ?

[slick132]

Hi Sharburrys,

 

Can you confirm exactly what you said in your Particulars of Claim, so we can see if there's any merit in the Application made by the other side.

 

Edited April 9, 2012 by slick132
typo

[sharburrys]

Hi Citizen B

 

Thank you for your message

 

I really appreciated your prompt reply...

 

Post 16 was the defence that HSBC's solicitors provided to me and to the court at the beginning

"stating that the claimant has no prospect of success"

 

and when I received the hearing date and all the other information from HMCS I saw the other response which I stated in post 17.... Other than that nothing I heard yet....

 

FOS was the biggest disappointment in this story;

 

I opened a case in FOS around Jan210 and the response of provisional decision came in March 2011 stating that

a fair compensation for me of C where:

"A = Total amount sold

B = Unauthorised overdraft (which means - £1,500 of authorised overdraft)

C = A - B

 

When I proved the Ombudsman that the amount of C equeals to £6,450 at the time and all of as sudden the Ombudsmans final decision came HSBC did nothing wrong and it is in my contract... If the funds do not clear they are entitled to sell my shares...

 

I took the case to the chief Ombudsman and she never responded all I heard from one of her assistants apologisng for this taking longer than (22months) average handling time of 6 months.... and a cheque of £100

 

I wrote the Ombudsman asked what his decision based on and how come can HSBC sell my shares around £2150 more than what i was actually overdrawn and I paid for fee called unauthorised overdraft fee + interest why did they not refund me??? His response was "open another case"

 

Basically I was overdrawn around £6250 from which I had an overdraft limit of £1500 which I still have and I have been paying an account fee for... HSBC sold around £6750 shares....Is it not straight forward? plus I was penalized around £450 charges (before and after sale)

 

I tried to contact media - no one seems interested especially no one does not want to deal with HSBC???

 

Taken the legal action now being threatened with paying their legal costs... hearing date is 17th May 2012

 

I am so frustrated but where is the justice?? If an individual did the same thing to them they will penalise him £1000s why anyone can not touch these guys??\

 

Apologies if I involve too much comments as I am fed up with dealing HSBC since 2009 December....

 

I really need help....

 

Regards

[sharburrys]

Hi Slick

 

Thank you for your message

 

I opened my case for "HSBC sold my shares excessively"

 

Regards

[MARTIN3030]

Dont be too fazed by their stance,it is not unusual for banks legal teams to be asking for a strike out -in fact it is very common.

Remember,it is not DG who will have the ultimate decision on whether there is cause of action or not,it is the Court.

[sharburrys]

Also I requested a refund of charges back with 8% interest as well as the amount of shares back in my account which were sold excessively at the time...