employment issues? need help fast.

[diva1987]

Hi, I wonder if anyone can help. First off I have worked at my place of work for 8 years. I work in a busy restaurant and have always had a manager but the owner decided they needed a new manager who is now above everyone else, he came a year ago and is the owners family member. I don't know why but since he has started he has always not got on with me.

 

He is ok to my face but behind the scenes causes trouble for me for no reason and lies all the time about me. I am diabetic and if I need to I have a extra UNPAID break and work the time I needed at the end of my shift. I was earlier this year suspended for not booking a holiday in the correct procedure, my son was very ill in hospital and i text my friend at work and asked her to ask the supervisor if i could book the day off, he said yes but of course in the disciplinary he denied he had said yes. i was given a final written warning for that.

 

Ok so on to the next issue, another woman started months ago and has fell out with the majority of workers for one reason or another and also has a grudge against me for a unknown reason. one day she shouted f**k off to me when i asked her for something, i subsequently told the owner has the new manager hadn't done a thing about it. nothing was done, she knew i had said something, but a couple of weeks ago i went to work and my new manager had told me i had to go to the office to see my boss. i was told there were people saying i had taken food and not paid, i said i hadn't as i take my own food or only eat when the food is offered free. I once made something and paid straight away, i know who served me but my new manager is saying it was for something else on a different day. something i don't even eat!

 

I had my disciplinary yesterday and denied all the accusations but i asked whether i was able to see the so called witnesses statements. they say they wanted to keep them confidential. i also asked why i wasn't able to speak to my work colleagues if it would help me defend myself. i was told i could now but they may not want to speak to me.

 

What i want to know is can they actually dismiss you if you haven't done anything just on what people who don't like you have made this ridiculous story up. i do believe i will be sacked because they wouldn't of made these things up for any other reason. they know stealing is gross misconduct but isn't bullying too.

 

I asked why wasn't my allegations of mine and others of bullying my this woman wasn't perused. I was told i should of put it in writing, i was never told it should be in writing so how should i know. where do i stand on this. if these 2 people are saying this even though they are saying they have both never witnessed it together can i still get sacked. thankyou

Edited December 22, 2011 by antone
Added paragraphs for clarity

[papasmurf1cx]

Prepare to lose your job. It is plain to see, and you know it, that they have been after you for some time. You do seem to have a case on different fronts, disability discrimination and being subject to unfair procedures at work over the discipline processes.

 

The question is if they sack you could you undertake a Tribunal case? Have you legal expenses cover attached to your home contents insurance or belong to a union (although they can be problematic too)? Fighting a case can be stressful, so are you wanting it or not?

 

In any event you should in fact do everything in writing, as you have found out verbal communication can be denied and 'friends' are nothing of the sort when it comes to their own employment. So whatever you do next everything should be in writing and you should keep copies.

[Bizz1980]

Hey,

 

 

I am a restaurant manager and from what I get from what you saying . .

 

1 you cant be put straight on a final warning.

2 you do need to have holidays booked in writing so your would be a fault and disciplined.

3 you should appeal this as they MUST provide you with the witness statements as part of the process this is not optional regardless of the situation.

4 they can NOT accuse you of stealing receiving free food without proof and what action did they take against the person/s who apparently gave you it?

4 regards to the abusive TM you must put the complaint in writing to the manager he has no choice but to take up your concerns.

 

Tell me what paperwork have you received regarding your disciplinary?

Are you part of a union?

Were you offered a witness?

Was there a company witness?

[diva1987]

I only had the letter telling me i had to attend the discaplinary and havent heard from them since. i was told because the person who made the statement wanted it to be confidential i wasnt allowed to see. but surely that means i cnt defend myself if there just saying i took this at that without a statement. i do have witnesses but in there statements they made no comment not quite sure why as i havent spoken to them because im not allowed to. there saying i took things but arent giving dates or times as they know it didnt really happen. i had a representative in with me but they wouldnt allow me to have the person of my choice as they was off for 2 weeks. im not part of a union too.

 

in the discaplinary i made a opening statement before we started which said

 

1 my legal advisors have asked me to ask you as a legal requirment to make full and concise notes of the meeting along with namesof those in attendence and suply me with a copy.

2. please be aware that i am also prepared and able to proceed a full employment tribunal if the allegations against me for the non payment of food is persued.

3. it is important for you to be aware that you could dismiss me without actual proof of non payment purely on your suspicions and hearsay, but, that under an employment tribunal hearing corroborated evidence will be required including sworn testemonies by any witnesses.

4 to conclude finally, i am still happy to continue in your employmentif this episode can be put behind and i now await you questions to proceed with this meeting.

[Bizz1980]

The witness statements cannot be used if copies are not given to you these MUST be provided.

 

When I say witness do you have a company witness present at hearings and do they?

Is the hearing documented?

Have they given you at least 48 hours notice to prepair for your hearing?

 

They must provide the statements and give you notice of the hearing they also must document all conversations, your witness would not be permitted to speak on your behalf but just act as witness to anything said.

the witness should be of your choice provided they work for the company and they are not part of the investigation therefor you can talk to this person.

 

They must highlight times and dates of the event and who brought it to there attention.

You must not talk to other staff members this could damage your case.

Your statement is spot on they must provide evidence and statements to back up there claim any evidence or statements used should also be supplied to you in order to defend your case provided there are not part of the investigation.

Also if the person conducting the hearing is the person that did the investigation they are NOT aloud to head or witness the hearing.

 

If no evidence is given or witness statements are provided and the person heading the hearing is also the person investigating the outcome will be in valid and they would be forced to reinstate your position.

[diva1987]

Thankyou for all your replies, made me feel somewhat better. Now i only have one statement (my manager who doesnt like me). he totally messed up because the one thing he said he witnessed he got the date and the actual item made wrong plus i do have a recipet for it and witnesses who will back me up that hes lyin( i hope). the other things he is saying it is all because somebody has told him( im guessing the other person who doesnt like me). Im not allowed to know who said things to him and what the dates were for these alleged offences. in his statement he made he was asked"has she made any other food and not paid" he answered yes such and such but doesnt say why he thinks that, who told. and date for that allegation. if people dont back me up could this all go on hearsay from people that im lying.

[dreadpiratesteve]

As Bizz says, they MUST provide you with a copy of all evidence they intend to use against you prior to the hearing. If they wish for the witnesses that made statements to remain anonymous, they can provide you with a copy which has their names removed but must contain the same wording and the original kept in case of tribunal.

 

If you can, speak with ACAS prior so that they can give you some advice and guidance on how to proceed.

[diva1987]

when you say statements to back up there claim any evidence or statements used should also be supplied to you in order to defend your case provided there are not part of the investigation.

 

does that mean if somebody is saying i did the alleged offence then i shoud or shouldnt be allowed to see them.

[stu007]

Hi diva1987

 

Bizz is correct about the witness statements and also any other evidence they are using in the case against you they must provide you with copies this is so that you can then prepare your defense.

 

You are also entitled to request that those witnesses that done the statements are present (if they refuse they must put the reason in writing to you for ther refusal) and any witnesses for yourself are present at the hearing so that you are able to ask them any questions but you must put this in writing before hearing date to the Chariperson of the Disciplinary Hearing.

 

They should also have explained your rights under company policy and also provided you with a copy of there 'Disciplinary and Grievance' procedure. You are also entitled to be accompanied by either a work collegue or union representative at the hearing.

 

please also have a look at the ACAS Website very good info: www.acas.org.uk

(I would download and if you can print of a copy of the 'ACAS Disciplinary & Grievances Procedure' and take it with you to hearing and make sure they see it i.e. sit it right in front of you in there full view.)

Edited December 23, 2011 by stu007

[Bizz1980]

No apologies this was mixed up anything part of the investigation that they use against you must be given to you to defend your case.

They cannot use anything without showing you it before your hearing.

 

Steve offers sound advice speak to acas its free but they cannot offer advice only give you guidelines that your company must adhere to.

 

they can NOT go on hearsay they must prove it and investigate it properly. Also if there is only one witness then its your word against there's this also must be backed up with evidence if 2 people then you may have a problem as that is enough to merit gross miss conduct.

 

If the manager is a witness and this is being used then he can NOT hold your meeting as it is conflict of interest.

 

Does your company have an HR department if so you might want ask them to get involved if you feel the investigation is not fair though I do warn you that they will come in hard and fast and if you are a fault then they wont waste time.

[diva1987]

hi, thanks for the reply. he says in his statement it was reported to him by staff members, if this is true should i still not have a copy of there statement. if no body is willing to give a statement why would they say these things. it also say staff advised him somethhing happened but again no other statement to prove this. there seems to be a hell of a lot of reporting going off but not a lot of statements to back this up.

[Bizz1980]

Going back to the original post my advice would be not to make any other complaints regarding anyone else or other issues stick to the facts of the false allegation and the evidence they must provide make sure they are following the disciplinary procedures ask for all the information Witness statements times what was stolen ect...

Steer away from the other allegations for now it will be portrayed as trouble making because you are in trouble. Once your case has been closed then raise a formal complaint in writing to the manager.

 

Stick to the facts don't rant don't blame ask the important questions and get clear answers this will make them realize you are serious and are taking sound advice.

[Bizz1980]

Its really simple he can NOT hold your hearing without giving you the evidence my advice is wait till your hearing and ask for the statements if he fails to supply then he cant hold a meeting if he does supply you can request 48 hours to re evaluate your case make no comment until he supplies you with the evidence he is using.

 

He may be trying to flush you out and get some kind of admit ion. Are still working at the moment? are you suspended? if you are it must be on Full pay. If your not it cant be classed as gross miss conduct as the appropriate action has not been taken which would be to suspend you on full pay.

[diva1987]

yes im suspended on full pay but i have already had the discaplinary so if they do sack me i would have to bring it up about there only being 1 statement without nobody else clarifying these allegations at the appeal. I did say at the start is there only 1 statement and she said yes, others wished to be kept confidential, she gave me a summary of what other staff had said but didnt include any names and it didnt say anything about my managers allegations being true. if someone did say i did it but wished it to be kept confidential could they still put it in the summary that someone did agree with his statement. sorry i keep going on but this company arent excalty fair and will probably sack me from hearsay to another person even if it isnt backed up with there own anonymous statement.

[Bizz1980]

No statements can be used unless they have been provided to you. If they sumemerise them that's fine but can't be used as evidence unless given to you.

 

Have you appealed it? Why havnt they already made a deccision?

[stu007]

Hi diva

 

In post 11 you point out that 'He says in his statement it was reported to him by staff members'.

 

This is a very broad termanology for a Manager to use for a disciplinary statement of evidence what an idiot!!!

 

Your defence to this could be - That this statement is very vage and raises the question as to why the manager has only stated 'reported to him by staff members' as this raises further questions.

 

1. which staff members were these?

2. when did these staff member report this (date and time)?

3. exactly what did each of these staff members report?

4. where are these staff members statements?.

[diva1987]

Hi, I posted a thread regarding a discaplinary I was atteding at work. Please read my other post if you havent. I am going for the discaplinary again as it was ajourned as i wanted to speak to witnesses. Out of the 4 people i wanted to speak to only 2 of them aggreed. both agreed they dont believe i had stolen and backed upo what i had been telling my employer all along. Only my m,anager made a statement when the allegation was being investigated all the others refused. they gave me a summary of what other staff had said or not said. when i speaked to my witness i shown them the summary of the staff who didnt wish to comment and both told me they had not been asked 4 out of 7 of the questions. I also fount out that one of the people had said already that i had done nothing wrong. My managers statement says he was told by members of staff on 3 occasions but if this had of happened why would they not make a statement to verify there allegations. what will happen now?

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

I've merged your threads in order to make life easier for the people trying to help you. Please continue to post on this thread.

 

My best, HB

[papasmurf1cx]

Present the appeal evidence at the hearing and make an allegation that it was all made up. If they proceed with a sacking you will have goods grounds to take to an ET. Keep good records of it all. make sure your witnesses give a written version of events BEFORE giving evidence.

[greendollar]

Hi Diva 1987 ,

 

What evidence/statements have been supplied to you so far . I note that you say you have been informed that you are not allowed to know who has written statements about the allegations or dates when the alledged offences were supposed to have taken place .

I personally would inform your employer that you wish to have any witnesses that have written statements present at any disciplinary so that you can question them .

Your employer could refuse this request but must have a good reason to do so or it will weaken their case at any tribunal .

Also,if your employer cannot even give you the dates of the alledged offences how the hell are you supposed to defend yourself . I'd just say that you can't possibly answer any questions as you have no idea what day they are talking about . Goodluck .

[diva1987]

Thanks for the reply, i only have my managers witness statement as he was the one who made the allegation. He says he saw me one time but this one time will be accounted for when i give my witness statements to them as he got the date wrong, the item worng which i allegadely didnt pay for. He obviously thought i hadnt paid but when he realised i had he made up something else on a diiferent day so it looks like i couldnt possibly have paid. They are able to print of till recipets and would know what each member of staff had paid for. The other 2 allegations are apperently from other staff telling him but i havent got anymore statements so cant know for sure if anyone really did tell him or not. I wasnt allowed to talk to anyone before the last discaplinary but said if im not allowed to talk to anyone how can i defend myself, they then quickly backtracked and arranged meetings with the propl i had requested. They said 2 people had refused but ow can i be sure they did ask them or wether they just dont want me to speak to them because they could verify i did nothing wrong.

[BobTooU]

Hi diva1987

You have some good advice above so i'll make this brief. Does your company have a disciplinary policy? If so have they provided you with one? If no this is good for you so far as the tribunal will see this as an afront to fairness. If they have read it fully. Write down each and every breach you can prove they have committed. The more breaches the better for you at a tribunal. No witness statements provided is witholding information (not in those words). Do not make them aware of the specific breaches or they will just correct them before your Appeal and this will leave you with less leverage later. If they do not have a policy then Acas policy provails. Acas cannot give advice, merely guidance! If no union, no house insurance, this can get very expensive. Hopefully you will qualify for legal aid. But you can speak to many free law advice agencies. Law Society, FRU, CAB (may have someone in your area), etc.

My final piece of advice is buy a Dictaphone and record everything. Itssounds ridiculous but I expect your employer will say one thing and writeanother. What they write is binding, what they is not. They will say things tomake you feel at ease or confuse you. If you have a recording of this it willsave a lot of stress.

Good luck

BobTooU

[diva1987]

Hi. I found out today i was sacked. I really haven't done anything wrong and am so upset as i have been fausly accused. What do I put in the letter of appeal? Any help? Thankyou

[BobTooU]

Hi diva1987

 

Really sorry to hear your news. But don't let the B******s get you down.

Your Appeal letter is merely a procedural application to be heard again because you feel the original Hearing: was unfair because....; missed some vital evidence; new evidence has come to light; procedures were not followed. Make it brief, bullet points. You don't have to right down any details. They will give you an appeal. If they don't it is better for you at a Tribunal. Almost certain they will and the outcome will be the same. They are never going to admit they were wrong, unless you can prove someone has lied! However, as in my case I did prove the investigating officer had lied, yet the outcome was still the same at the Appeal.

Put your letter of Appeal in. Then look for a new job in the mean time. Look forward in life otherwise they can and will drag you down until you are completely worn out.

If they have lied, and provided very poor evidence to get you sacked, and you get nowhere at Appeal inform them you intend to go to Tribunal and they will settle (long time after).

Look for some good advice from people suitably qualified on here and free sources.

 

Chin up

 

BobTooU

[diva1987]

Thank you so much bob for your advice, makes me feel a littkle better. I have worked at the place since leaving school so I am worried about getting another jiob as I only have them as a reference, do you think its possible to be able to take them to a tribunal if they havent listened to your version of events.