Transport Investigations Limited - Brought ticket before leaving station!

[links81uk]

I need some advice, I caught the train to work and the ticket booth was very busy and only manned by one person. Worried about being late I went over the footbridge and caught the train. There are no ticket machines at the station, along with several other stations on the line.

 

The train was extremely busy, due to a cancelled train and the conductor was nowhere in sight. So after arriving at the station I queued along with approximately 15 plus other passengers and purchased my weekly ticket at the excess fares desk (one of several at Cardiff Queen Street) as I had done a couple of times before.

 

Immediately after buying the ticket and just before I went through the exit barrier I was confronted by a man who I have since found out to be from Transport Investigations Ltd, who questioned and then cautioned me and advised that I was in breaking a byelaw for travelling on the train without a ticket.

I have checked the National Rail website and understand that Penalty fares are not in operation on Arriva Trains Wales services.

I had no intention of not buying a ticket (fare dodging) and had queued at one the excess ticket offices provided on my own accord immediately upon leaving the train along with 15 plus other passengers.

I had a ticket before leaving the ticket area and provided a valid ticket upon request to a person of authority, so technically have I broken any laws? Can I indeed expect a letter of prosecution or are they just trying it on? If necessary I can also provide them with my bank statements to prove that I regularly purchase a weekly ticket each week!

Arriva Trains services appear to be technically aware that people are having trouble buying tickets as they are providing these Excess Ticket offices before the barriers. And there are regularly 15 plus people queuing for tickets on a Monday and Tuesday at these desks.

Any comments or advice would be appreciated.

Edited December 14, 2011 by links81uk

[Nystagmite]

I had a ticket before leaving the ticket area and provided a valid ticket upon request to a person of authority, so technically have I broken any laws?

 

Well, you did travel without a valid ticket...

[SRPO]

IF your version of events is accurate.......tell them to get stuffed, you paid the fare before being challenged by an 'inspector'. No court in the land will convict you even if you were charged with a strict liability offence.

[Old-CodJA]

IF your version of events is accurate.......tell them to get stuffed, you paid the fare before being challenged by an 'inspector'. No court in the land will convict you even if you were charged with a strict liability offence.

 

Only partly true I'm afraid.

 

If there were facilities to pay before the traveller joined a train, it has to be remembered that the Act says ' having not previously paid the fare..' and if it was simply a case of not wishing to queue, not wishing to use a self-service machine, or passenger running late for a train, these are not acceptable excuses and a prosecution is very likely to succeed.

 

Additionally, we only get one side of a story on CAG and often do not know what fare was actually paid. For example, if a traveller arrived at station C and paid from station B, but actually travelled from station A, then intent to avoid a fare is evident and that would easily be convicted.

 

Yes, you are right, Arriva Trains Wales do not operate a Penalty fare system, they are not required to do so, but they do have a prosecution process for allegations of offences the same as other TOCs.

 

I try never to give what might be seen to be definifitive answers until we are wholly aware of all the facts.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[Old-CodJA]

I had a ticket before leaving the ticket area and provided a valid ticket upon request to a person of authority, so technically have I broken any laws?

 

In answer to that specific question the answer is, 'Technically, Yes'

 

If a person gets on a train at a station where there are facilities to buy a ticket, but does not go and pay the fare BEFORE getting on and has not been given formal permission to get on a train without a ticket by staff at the station, then that person can be charged with a Byelaw offence.

 

Facilities to buy a ticket include either a booking office or ticket machines.

 

Extract from Byelaws

 

18. Ticketless travel in Non-Compulsory Ticket Areas

 

(1)In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

 

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

 

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

If a person gets on at a station where there are genuinely no facilities to get a ticket at all, the travellers responsibility is to go and find the guard or conductor and pay the fare straight away.

 

All of the Arriva Trains Wales services have staff on board as far as I am aware.

 

Hope that helps

Edited December 15, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[Richie77]

@links81ukThe same thing happened to me on Tuesday morning - I just co-operated because I thought I hadn't done anything wrong & he'd say "your tickets are fine...carry on".Haven't got a clue how many persistent fare dodgers are actually getting caught but it's clear that law-abiding, fare paying passengers are fair game to the Revenue Protection Agents at Queen Street, Central etc.Step 1 - travel on trainStep 2 - queue up at station to buy ticket before leaving station through barriersStep 3 - Revenue Protection Agents say “gotcha” as there was ‘intent to avoid paying a fare’Step 4 - receive letter threatening prosecution & summons to Magistrates CourtStep 5 - pay the ‘admin fee’ of £100+ to make the whole thing go awayStep 6 - [repeat over & over again in order to rake in as much money as possible]Well done Arriva for appointing the parasitic Transport Investigations Ltd to hammer the people that pay their fares every day.

[Old-CodJA]

Shouldn't 'Step 1' be = 'Go to station and buy ticket' ?

 

Then 'Step 2' = 'board train' etc...

[Richie77]

Shouldn't 'Step 1' be = 'Go to station and buy ticket' ?

 

Then 'Step 2' = 'board train' etc...

 

Yes, you're correct. However, in all the years I've been using trains I never knew that it was an offence to board a train without a ticket. I buy a return ticket at my station of destination because the ticket office at my station of departure is always busy & the conductor can't get around everyone on the train as it's packed. No-one from Arriva has ever said to me that I shouldn't be buying my ticket after I get off the train & I've never seen a sign or notice stating this. I travel on the train several times a week & I pay my fare every time. I genuinely thought it was common practice to queue up & buy your return ticket before leaving the station as there's 20 people queuing at any one time. If I'm not allowed to buy a return ticket at my station of destination then why didn't one of the Arriva staff tell me by saying "you shouldnt be doing this because theres a ticket office at your station". It's obviously going to be an expensive lesson for me to learn but my view is that it's incredibly unfair to punish genuine fare paying passengers in this way. IMO Arriva are letting genuine people fall into this trap & are then using the fear of prosecution to extort money from them.

[links81uk]

As you say there is regularly 20 plus people queuing at the excess ticket desks. Its seems to have become common practice at Cardiff Queen Street to pay upon arrival at the station due to the limited ticket facilities available on the valley lines. Especially, at the weekends when more than often enough the ticket booth is often locked, which is not helpful especially if the conductor on the train is hiding in his cabin or is unable to do his rounds on the train as it is too crowded.

 

For example on Saturday morning, when I went Christmas shopping there must of been 40 people queuing up the corridor towards the desks as I walked past. Surely Arriva must realise they have a ticketing problem at the valley stations with people being unable to buy tickets? Also why only pick people at random to prosecute, if one, why not all? or at least put up a warning sign to make people realise they must buy before travelling from this point forward? Judging by the queues Arriva appear to be unknowing providing a ticketing service upon arrival at the station.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, you're correct. However, in all the years I've been using trains I never knew that it was an offence to board a train without a ticket. I buy a return ticket at my station of destination because the ticket office at my station of departure is always busy & the conductor can't get around everyone on the train as it's packed. .

 

 

It is clear from your post that a traveller who knows this is choosing not to pay before boarding. The National Conditions of Carriage make clear that not wishing to queue, or arriving late for a train are not acceptable reasons for failing to get a ticket. If a traveller knows that is the case, then it is his or her responsibility to comply with the rule and make time by arriving earlier.

 

 

As you say there is regularly 20 plus people queuing at the excess ticket desks.

 

Ticket selling facilities are often provided where travellers may have arrived at an interchange from stations that do not have any ticket selling facilities.

 

Also why only pick people at random to prosecute, if one, why not all? or at least put up a warning sign to make people realise they must buy before travelling from this point forward? Judging by the queues Arriva appear to be unknowing providing a ticketing service upon arrival at the station.

 

On sites such as this we only get one side of any story and are never party to all the details of why any individual may actually face prosecution.

 

Yes, I agree, it would be simple for all stations to have a sign saying 'you must buy a ticket before travelling', but I do not know why many people find that hard to understand anyway. I'm sorry if that offends anyone.

 

When we all go and buy the weekly shopping we know we have to pay and do not take the goods without paying just because there are not sufficient tills to keep the queue moving as fast as we would like. We do not need a sign at the supermarket to tell us that we have to pay.

 

Where I struggle with understanding a bit of this is that, if a traveller is not prepared to queue for a ticket before getting the train, why are they prepared to queue when they get off?

Where is the time saving?

 

It has been suggested to me that many people may only queue to pay when they get off if inspectors are present.

 

I am not saying that is so in the OPs case, but it is a comment that has been aired elsewhere.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[Richie77]

Perhaps my wording could've been a bit better.....but my point is that I wasn't aware that paying for the fare for my partiuclar journey at my destination station was an offence. I didnt know & no-one from ATW has ever told me that I shouldn't be doing this.I replied on this thread to empathise with the person who started it. I've just e-mailed ATW customer services to complain about what happened to me & if other genuine people complain then maybe ATW will do something about it. Before anyone says...yes I know it was Transport Investigations Ltd who carried out the check / interview but it took place on one of ATW stations.

[Old-CodJA]

Perhaps my wording could've been a bit better.....but my point is that I wasn't aware that paying for the fare for my partiuclar journey at my destination station was an offence. I didnt know & no-one from ATW has ever told me that I shouldn't be doing this.

 

I understand that and I also do not want anyone to think that I believe all prosecutions are always justified.

 

I'm sure my record on here makes that very clear, but it must be remembered that ignorance of a law is never a defence.

[Richie77]

Yep, I understand what you're saying Old-CodJA. Just tried to clarify my point thats all - the only thing I'm guilty of in this instance is being naive. I'm not a dishonest person - I use the train & I pay my fare every day without fail. Whether it be at the ticket office, on the train or at the desks at my destination. What would you say the chances were of such a case going forward to Court? As I know if it goes to Court I'd be stuffed. I'm waiting to receive my letter from Transport Investigations Ltd but I'm sure the bloke said I'd have the chance to pay a 'fine / fee' to cover 'cost / admin costs' to basically stop it from going further. Sorry for the lack of details there but I haven't got anything in writing at present & at the time I was in shock to be honest!!

[SRPO]

OC, I used a big bold IF to start my answer, although an offence may be apparent could you really see a court convict based on the events as stated?

[Richie77]

Hi SRPO, same question to you if you'd be kind enough to help. What would you say the chances were of such a case going forward to Court? As I know if it goes to Court I'd be stuffed. I'm waiting to receive my letter from Transport Investigations Ltd but I'm sure the bloke said I'd have the chance to pay a 'fine / fee' to cover 'cost / administration costs' to basically stop it from going further.

[SRPO]

Personally, if the circumstances are as described I would say there is a zero chance of this going to court.

However, this is merely one side of the story & I've spent the last 25 years looking at statements wondering if the people involved were actually there based upon what they have written.

[Richie77]

Thanks for the reply SRPO. The bloke from TIL actually wrote down the statement on a MG11 form if I remember correctly. I asked him for a copy at the time but he said I'd receive a copy in the post when I receive my letter. Can't believe in all the years I've got the train I never knew the rule about having a valid ticket before actually getting on the train. I always pay my fare without exception - whether it be at the ticket office, on the train or at the destination station. The bloke from TIL wasn't interested in that though. Will this be handled solely by the prosecutions department at TIL or will it be down to the TOC (Arriva) to make a decision on whether they want to prosecute?

[Old-CodJA]

Like SRPO the I have spent 30 plus years dealing with these sort of things and with more than 55 years between us I agree entirely with the comment that, all too often what we read on one side is wildly different when read from another perspective.

 

Reading your post I am very surprised that any inspector who was reporting what s/he alleged to be an offence should say 'you will get an opportunity to pay a fine to stop it going to court' or words to that effect. Whilst some cases may be settled by agreement at the request of the traveller, no rail company has the right to arbitrarily impose a 'fine' in lieu of prosecution of an alleged offence. The imposition of a fine is wholly the prerogative of the Magistrates.

 

A traveller might seek or propose an out of court settlement and a rail company might agree, but they cannot fix a 'fine' as a penalty.

[Richie77]

Thanks for the reply Old-CodJA. I understand & agree with what you're saying. The bloke from TIL who took my statement was actually quite polite & quietly spoken compared to the other agents. I said something like "are you saying I'll have to pay a fine?" & I'm 90% certain he said something like "you'll receive a letter explaining everything but you'll normally have a chance to pay admin costs otherwise it goes on & the fine is bigger". I know fine's can only be issued by a Court but there's a thread on here somewhere by a person called 'TomJames' started on 16th Jan 2009 (if I'm correct) & it backs up what I'm saying. This person states that they were asked by TIL to pay £79 to cover admin costs to make them drop the 'case' before it went to Court. Its definitely on here somewhere - I would link to it but I don't know how to!

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks for the reply Old-CodJA. I understand & agree with what you're saying. The bloke from TIL who took my statement was actually quite polite & quietly spoken compared to the other agents. I said something like "are you saying I'll have to pay a fine?" & I'm 90% certain he said something like "you'll receive a letter explaining everything but you'll normally have a chance to pay admin costs otherwise it goes on & the fine is bigger". I know fine's can only be issued by a Court but there's a thread on here somewhere by a person called 'TomJames' started on 16th Jan 2009 (if I'm correct) & it backs up what I'm saying. This person states that they were asked by TIL to pay £79 to cover admin costs to make them drop the 'case' before it went to Court. Its definitely on here somewhere - I would link to it but I don't know how to!

 

I might be wrong, but I do not think the 'TomJames' post is similar in any way because if I remember correctly, he was a professional comedian who tried to get involved in someone else's incident where he tried to organise a collection to pay a travellers fare and then went looking for a lot of publicity. I thought that was a Virgin trains matter and that RPSS were following up a penalty notice, but as I say, my memory may be mistaken.

 

I suppose it is worth noting that in some cases there are actually Home Office guidelines that suggest many low level offences concerning first time offenders and especially young people, can be dealt with outside the judicial process by financial penalty, rather than going straight to action in the criminal courts.

[Richie77]

I might be wrong, but I do not think the 'TomJames' post is similar in any way because if I remember correctly, he was a professional comedian who tried to get involved in someone else's incident where he tried to organise a collection to pay a travellers fare and then went looking for a lot of publicity. I thought that was a Virgin trains matter and that RPSS were following up a penalty notice, but as I say, my memory may be mistaken.

 

I suppose it is worth noting that in some cases there are actually Home Office guidelines that suggest many low level offences concerning first time offenders and especially young people, can be dealt with outside the judicial process by financial penalty, rather than going straight to action in the criminal courts.

 

Just done a search on here for Transport Investigations Ltd & the 'TomJames' thread is on there but I don't know how to link to it. It says that he got stopped without a valid Oyster card & was contacted by TIL where he claimed they suggested he could pay their £79 admin costs & they'd not pursue the matter any further. So I suppose they're not official fines as they're not issued by the Courts but they're 'stealth fines' i.e. called something else such as administration costs. According to some other threads on here regarding TIL - when they write to you regarding your alleged offence they give you a ref number & a log in for their website which allows you to pay the 'fine / stealth fine / administration costs' (I assume) without it going futher.

[Richie77]

Found this on the Transport Investigations Ltd website................Fare recovery and prosecutions – We provide a follow-through processing service to collect unpaid fares or to proceed to prosecution. Reports are received by our administration office and cases processed to completion, either through recovery of fares and administration costs, or by summary prosecution in Magistrates' Courts throughout the country. Our in-house prosecutors and support staff have wide experience of handling these issues and we have been particularly successful in gaining recoveries where other processes and agencies have failed. We strive to ensure that all parties are fully informed throughout the process as necessary, and a professional approach in handling these delicate matters is maintained at all times. We also offer a byelaw prosecution service that includes car parking and anti-social behaviour...............apologies if my posts appear cluttered but I can't seem to paragraph or space it our for some reason!

[Richie77]

Found this on the Transport Investigations Ltd website................Fare recovery and prosecutions – We provide a follow-through processing service to collect unpaid fares or to proceed to prosecution. Reports are received by our administration office and cases processed to completion, either through recovery of fares and administration costs, or by summary prosecution in Magistrates' Courts throughout the country. Our in-house prosecutors and support staff have wide experience of handling these issues and we have been particularly successful in gaining recoveries where other processes and agencies have failed. We strive to ensure that all parties are fully informed throughout the process as necessary, and a professional approach in handling these delicate matters is maintained at all times. We also offer a byelaw prosecution service that includes car parking and anti-social behaviour...............apologies if my posts appear cluttered but I can't seem to paragraph or space it our for some reason!

 

As you can see it does mention about 'administration costs'. I could be clutching at straws but I've got a hunch myself & god knows how many others will receive near identical letters over the next few weeks giving us the option to log in & pay these 'administration costs' to stop it from going further.

[MrGates]

What you have to remember is that TiL or any TOC don't have to offer any chance of an out of court settlement, 1st time offences can often be easily settled by this arrangement, the TOC stands to gain nothing by taking someone to court. The costs involved are relatively small in some cases compared to a day in court, there are many systems in the uk where similar practices exsist.

[Richie77]

Thanks Old-codJA, SRPO & MrGates for your input on this thread - it’s much appreciated............

 

As I’ve stated previously I’m not a dishonest person & I pay my train fare every time to use the train without exception. That’s why I’m not prepared to allow Transport Investigations Ltd (TIL) or Arriva Trains Wales (ATW) treat me in this manner. It’s an injustice that needs to be rectified.I’ve taken encouragement from recent posts on other forums where people have reported near identical situations as myself & links81uk

 

 

Apparently, ATW have been flooded with complaints on this issue & have been writing back to people to inform them that they are instructing TIL to drop the allegations made against them............

 

This thread alone has had nearly 700 ‘views’ so it’s clear that other people have been looking for advice & information on this subject as they’ve also been unfairly treated. I implore any people out there who have been stopped by a member of TIL staff to put in a written complaint to ATW immediately. I’ve also written to my local MP & my Welsh Assembly representative.............

 

When I’ve got any more information I’ll reply on here as it may help other people in the same situation.

Edited January 6, 2012 by citizenB
formatted for easier reading