Cap1 & CCA return

[baileyboy]

Hello, this is my first ever contribution to this forum, so please bare with me if I mess up. I have been reading through this topic with a great deal of interest, and would like to clarify or at least get my head around this issue of the credit card and the CCA. Can someone please let me know if I am understanding this correctly?

 

1) When a credit card is issued, both parties should receive a signed agreement before it can be enforced?

 

2) When a card is renewed after the original becomes out of date, a original copy with signatures of both parties should have been sent with the new card? If it hasn't, then the agreement becomes null and void?

 

3) If a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request with £1 is sent for a copy of the original agreement - signed by both parties, and if they fail to produce this within 12 days including weekends, the card company is in default and the credit debt is not enforceable?

 

4) Still not produced after 30 days, a crime is committed?

 

5) Can only the interest charged and any penalty fees be reclaimed, or does it include the original debt (purchase) also.

 

5) Has anyone taken this to court and won back anything?

 

This issue as a whole would hurt the banks to a far greater extent than the campaign to retrieve unlawfull bank charges. Shame.

[zootscoot]

1) When a credit card is issued, both parties should receive a signed agreement before it can be enforced?

 

Yes

 

2) When a card is renewed after the original becomes out of date, a original copy with signatures of both parties should have been sent with the new card? If it hasn't, then the agreement becomes null and void?

 

 

The copy need not be signed

 

3) If a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request with £1 is sent for a copy of the original agreement - signed by both parties, and if they fail to produce this within 12 days including weekends, the card company is in default and the credit debt is not enforceable?

 

 

This would be under a CCA request and this only renders the agreement unenforceable not the debt. When the agreement (as to dates of payments, interest rates and charges etc) is made unenforceable the debt becomes immediately payable.

 

4) Still not produced after 30 days, a crime is committed

 

 

Yes provided the agreement has not already ended by default of the debtor

 

5) Can only the interest charged and any penalty fees be reclaimed, or does it include the original debt (purchase) also.

 

 

 

The original debt is still payable and the cc company will be able to charge a reasonable rate of interest for the service of loan provided. Any unlawful charges can be claimed back irrespective of whether they supplied the original agreement.

[Number6]

 

3) If a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request with £1 is sent for a copy of the original agreement - signed by both parties, and if they fail to produce this within 12 days including weekends, the card company is in default and the credit debt is not enforceable?

 

You would need to make a request under Section 78 (for running account credit) or 77 (for fixed sum credit) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, it's not a subject access request which only applies under the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

The correct timescale here is 12 working days + 2 working days to allow your letter to reach the lender = more or less three weeks.

 

4) Still not produced after 30 days, a crime is committed?

 

Not quite. It's an additional calendar month after the original 12 + 2 working days. So the grand total is 14 working days + 28 to 31 days depending on the month.

 

Pete

[meagain]

So, is there any way to get the debt itself rendered unenforceable? Sucks somewhat that we can have the agreement struck down only to have to still have to pay them.

[Number6]

So, is there any way to get the debt itself rendered unenforceable? Sucks somewhat that we can have the agreement struck down only to have to still have to pay them.

 

This is where it becomes a grey area and dependent upon the "whim" of the court.

 

Courts have the power to grant all sorts of remedies to an injured party and the nature and scale of the remedy will depend upon the gravity of the error by the lender and the degree of harm suffered by the debtor.

 

Look at it this way. If a debtor freely entered into a loan agreement with a lender and the debtor was aware of the interest rate, total charge, loan period, etc but it later came to light that the creditor had mis-signed the agreement, or because of a printing error the full cancellation rights were not printed on the agreement has any harm been done to the debtor as a result of the failings of the lender? The short answer is no and there's no good reason why the debtor should not have to repay the loan. A judge might therefore give the debtor token compensation (£50 say) and give the lender a "slap on the wrist"

 

However, if there was a major error on the agreement which, say included some sort of extortionate document fee or arrangement fee that wasn't included in the total charge for credit calculation and which therefore was not properly described on the agreement and resulted in the debtor owing far more than he originally thought then the debtor has suffered material harm and judge could cancel the whole debt, wipe out the interest, cut the debt in half, etc, etc.

 

It all depends on the circumstances. This is not, and should never be a way to avoid repaying a debt legitimately incurred.

 

Pete

[tamadus]

Also can people realise that we are not experts in either the legal profession or the CCA. This thread is only our collective thoughts based on the wording of the CCA and common sense.

 

Our discussions have raised some issues which have been passed to higher authorities for clarification and remedy if that's possible.

 

The only real way any of these comments and suggestions can be tested is for a judge to decide the merit of each individual case.

 

In addition NONE of the regular contributors to this thread suggest any of this as a means of avoiding repaying a legitimate loan. Unless of course it's mine

[Guest The Terminator]

Also can people realise that we are not experts in either the legal profession or the CCA. This thread is only our collective thoughts based on the wording of the CCA and common sense.

 

Our discussions have raised some issues which have been passed to higher authorities for clarification and remedy if that's possible.

 

The only real way any of these comments and suggestions can be tested is for a judge to decide the merit of each individual case.

 

In addition NONE of the regular contributors to this thread suggest any of this as a means of avoiding repaying a legitimate loan. Unless of course it's mine

tam email me tomorrow at the address you Know (no what im saying )some info that I can't post

[Guest The Terminator]

Now we could be making a hell of a lot of progress here and this is from a lawyer at work.Under CPR he has just paid a sum of money into court on a take it or leave it basis because the other side were being pedantic.Although it was in my profession(housing law) there is nothing to say that this could well and truly f the MIB up.He gave me the CPR which this relates to but I've left it on my phone so for the next hour or so I'm going to look for it.Guys if you find it before I do please post it.I know firework night is 6 days away but let's face it nothing like letting off a few rocket's before the event

[Guest The Terminator]

Its Part 36 of the CPR worth reading

[Mike220359]

Whats CPR Term

 

Mike

[Number6]

Whats CPR Term

 

Mike

 

Civil Procedure Rules.

 

Civil Procedure Rules (CPR)

 

The Civil Procedure Rules (CPR) govern the way in which court cases are conducted in England and Wales.

 

They were introduced in April 1999 with the aim of enabling courts in England and Wales to deal with cases justly and streamlining the civil justice process by resolving as many cases as possible without resorting to court proceedings.

 

The Civil Procedure Rules replace the Rules of the Supreme Court 1965 and County Court Rules 1981.

 

The Civil Procedure Rules are available on the DCA website.

 

Civil Procedure Rules Homepage

 

Pete

[Guest The Terminator]

Oh dear!! I think I've just upset the MIB.Got a phone call about 15 mins ago.I've just told them that my debt is unenforceable unless a court rules that it is.Obviously the person at the other end of the phone went into one especally when I told him" take me to court you track record is not very good" and he then got very abusive as i had the phone on speaker phone my son who was here decided to record it.Hopefully I can get this from his phone onto cd then send it to the FSA with a very blatant letter requesting they do something about it if they don't I may have to consider another course of action.

[un1boy]

Oh dear!! I think I've just upset the MIB.Got a phone call about 15 mins ago.I've just told them that my debt is unenforceable unless a court rules that it is.Obviously the person at the other end of the phone went into one especally when I told him" take me to court you track record is not very good" and he then got very abusive as i had the phone on speaker phone my son who was here decided to record it.Hopefully I can get this from his phone onto cd then send it to the FSA with a very blatant letter requesting they do something about it if they don't I may have to consider another course of action.

 

Oh my god, that's bad that they spoke to you like that, but good it was taped!!

 

I'm sure you can get it to CD - do you hava microphone on your pc?

[Guest The Terminator]

Oh my god, that's bad that they spoke to you like that, but good it was taped!!

 

I'm sure you can get it to CD - do you hava microphone on your pc?

 

I've also got a good piece of software called clean so I should be able to do something with it.

[poltmcm]

Oh dear!! I think I've just upset the MIB.Got a phone call about 15 mins ago.I've just told them that my debt is unenforceable unless a court rules that it is.Obviously the person at the other end of the phone went into one especally when I told him" take me to court you track record is not very good" and he then got very abusive as i had the phone on speaker phone my son who was here decided to record it.Hopefully I can get this from his phone onto cd then send it to the FSA with a very blatant letter requesting they do something about it if they don't I may have to consider another course of action.

 

 

well good old bluetooth or data cable will do the trick here teminator, then the normal cd burning software.........sorted then winging it's way to the FSA:lol: serves them right;)

[tamadus]

Oh dear!! I think I've just upset the MIB.Got a phone call about 15 mins ago.I've just told them that my debt is unenforceable unless a court rules that it is.Obviously the person at the other end of the phone went into one especally when I told him" take me to court you track record is not very good" and he then got very abusive as i had the phone on speaker phone my son who was here decided to record it.Hopefully I can get this from his phone onto cd then send it to the FSA with a very blatant letter requesting they do something about it if they don't I may have to consider another course of action.

 

oH Terminator how could you upset the MIB on the same evening I upset the WIB ( women in Black)

 

lets hope that recording comes out ok

 

there is software that lets you connect direct into the sound circuits of your pc

[Guest The Terminator]

well good old bluetooth or data cable will do the trick here teminator, then the normal cd burning software.........sorted then winging it's way to the FSA:lol: serves them right;)

 

Thanks for the advice.We've both got bluetooth so it shouldn't be a problem.It will be sent by recorded delivery to the FSA and they will then have to act on it.If they don't they may end up in court.

[tamadus]

I just noticed the time of your post terminator, isnt there some rule they can't call you after 9pm ? they must have been cutting it close.

[Guest The Terminator]

oH Terminator how could you upset the MIB on the same evening I upset the WIB ( women in Black)

 

lets hope that recording comes out ok

 

there is software that lets you connect direct into the sound circuits of your pc

 

I can see this is going to be a very good November for all of us:lol:

[Guest The Terminator]

I just noticed the time of your post terminator, isnt there some rule they can't call you after 9pm ? they must have been cutting it close.

 

Timed at 21.20 on the call register and the thicko's have left there number and it was an american one I think I need say no more. The guideline is that they can't ring at unsocialble hours.

[poltmcm]

Timed at 21.20 on the call register and the thicko's have left there number and it was an american one I think I need say no more. The guideline is that they can't ring at unsocialble hours.

 

lol

nice one got them by the short and curlies then:)

[meagain]

When I was at the IR working the evening shift (back in the days before the merger with HMCE), we were told in no uncertain terms that it was in fact illegal for us to be calling people after 9pm. Can't provide a citation though.

[tamadus]

I thought there was some sort of guideline and Meagain has proved it so it's only a matter of time before we find it

 

interesting start to a new month all round by the look of it we may even have a good runup to Christmas

[pford]

Contacting debtors at unreasonable times and at unreasonable intervals

 

 

 

 

 

2.22 Slightly more respondents who commented on this issue were of the opinion that we should not attempt to specify what we consider to be unreasonable. There was widespread agreement that attempting to be prescriptive on this issue would be difficult given debtors' differing circumstances.

 

 

 

 

2.23 There was a degree of consistency from respondents that contacting debtors between the hours of 8am to 9pm Monday to Friday would be reasonable. There was greater disparity over what is reasonable in respect of contact made at the weekend and on public/bank holidays etc. There was also greater disparity over what constituted reasonable intervals with opinion ranging from daily, every couple of days to weekly. A number of respondents including Citizens Advice and the Credit Services Association stressed the importance of giving debtors a reasonable time to respond.

 

2.24 We believe the best way to deal with this issue is to determine on a case by case basis whether the business concerned has acted reasonably. This gives us the discretion to take into account individual circumstances. It also gives debt collectors the ability to accommodate debtors' preferences.

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/50F06527-9FC5-4610-B385-999D6E2A8950/0/oft664.pdf

[un1boy]

Contacting debtors at unreasonable times and at unreasonable intervals

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2.22 Slightly more respondents who commented on this issue were of the opinion that we should not attempt to specify what we consider to be unreasonable. There was widespread agreement that attempting to be prescriptive on this issue would be difficult given debtors' differing circumstances.

 

 

 

 

 

2.23 There was a degree of consistency from respondents that contacting debtors between the hours of 8am to 9pm Monday to Friday would be reasonable. There was greater disparity over what is reasonable in respect of contact made at the weekend and on public/bank holidays etc. There was also greater disparity over what constituted reasonable intervals with opinion ranging from daily, every couple of days to weekly. A number of respondents including Citizens Advice and the Credit Services Association stressed the importance of giving debtors a reasonable time to respond.

 

2.24 We believe the best way to deal with this issue is to determine on a case by case basis whether the business concerned has acted reasonably. This gives us the discretion to take into account individual circumstances. It also gives debt collectors the ability to accommodate debtors' preferences.

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/50F06527-9FC5-4610-B385-999D6E2A8950/0/oft664.pdf

 

good 'ol google, eh?