Cap1 & CCA return

[Jeff2000]

12 working days (+ 2 for posting) and they are in default a further calendar month and they've committed an offence.

 

 

Hi,

 

 

Then report them to Trading Standards etc!!!

 

 

Jeff.

[ladybird17]

ah un1 - you've just gone full circle - back to TS and we know how you love them!

(That's why I didn't mention who you had to complain to:D )

[davefirewalker]

it doesn't, because a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) is providing information they hold about you personally and your accounts - cancellation rights would only refer to a CCA

 

Not entirely...... the cca would only provide the copy docs and t&c

 

the SAR if it was a FULL DISCLOSURE would help you to determine if they had sent a copy doc or a cancellation doc.

 

the cancellation doc HAS to be in a very specific format

 

Dave

[ladybird17]

But if there is a cancellation document, it would need to be mentioned in the CCA, and the CC Act states that they must send you any documents referred to in your agreement as part of your CCA request.

 

I know the cancellation doc. has to be specific - but it is not about YOU specifically - so it's not related to the SUBJECT as in S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) - it's related to the CCA, it's not anything to do with the subect, it's an OBJECT of the CCA

[InKogneeToh]

aslo from the Wilson Case the following quote was from one of the judges

 

 

Quote: Lord Justice Sedley – "the moral for a pawnbroker such as Mr Howard is that if he wants the rewards of his trade he must operate strictly by the book, and that the failure to do so may be not merely to unravel agreements, but to reverse the indebtedness that they have purportedly caused."

 

Hi

 

That particular case involved a pawn agreement and was subject to a particular section of the CCA that states that a creditor may not enforce the security (pawn), or the agreement. Mrs Wilson had not paid any money in the first place, so it is not the case that she received any money back, only the items she had pawned.

 

That quote does not imply that a debtor will be entitled to reclaim monies already paid under an unenforceable agreement. Such an agreement is not void or invalid - it simply means that the creditor cannot force you to pay.

 

Regards, Pam

[davefirewalker]

But if there is a cancellation document, it would need to be mentioned in the CCA, and the CC Act states that they must send you any documents referred to in your agreement as part of your CCA request.

 

I know the cancellation doc. has to be specific - but it is not about YOU specifically - so it's not related to the SUBJECT as in S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) - it's related to the CCA, it's not anything to do with the subect, it's an OBJECT of the CCA

 

Hi LB..

 

the cancelation doc was not provided as part of my cca, BUT neither was the copy they sent me!

 

I have S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)'d them for full disclosure including notes that may help me determine if they have sent a cancellation notice or not.

 

if it turns out they havent, and they didnt send one with the cca then I can have a go at them.

 

I WANT TO BE SURE before chancing my arm. Its a lot of money and they will wriggle and squirm and try to get off the hook.....

 

rgds

 

Dave

[ladybird17]

Sorry Dave - I'm just not with you - cancellation rights are not just applicable to you, they are applicable to everyone who took out agreements when those particular cancellation rights were in force - but you are the subject in a SAR and it's YOUR particular and personal details you are asking for when you SAR them.

IF your CCA mentions cancellation rights AND a Cancellation document they must send these to you as part of a CCA request, not a SAR.

[davefirewalker]

LB,

 

I think you have hold of the wrong end of the stick.... let me explain

 

I have a loan with MBNA, I cca'd them and got my agreement inc t&c and statement, nothing else.....it looks 100% (apart from the dates)

 

because they signed before me it changes the nature of the agreement

instead of sending me a copy agreement they HAVE to send a seperate cancellation notice (as per oft cancellable agrements docs) . I dont think they complied with that in that all they originally sent is a copy doc.

 

i want to check the notes to the account to be sure that they havent sent the notice.

 

if they havent, and they havent sent it in my cca request, then the chances are they didnt in the first place (if you follow me)

 

I can then safely declare the agreement unenforceable

 

 

then I can have at them

 

Dave

[Jaranius]

xx

[Peterbard]

It is not my opinionanymore it is fact. No you are incorrect i suggest you read my earlier post and no i will not send you a copy because i don't like your tone.

You are welcome however to do what i did and contact he oft for conformation any one else who wants details can PM me.

 

Peter

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

Thanks AC.....

 

What if they didn't send the cancellation notice seperately?

Hi

 

So they are trying to fool you or the judge by giving you an application form but fiendishly icluding a cancellation notice.

 

Devilish clever and might work.

Never know might not notice that all the other form and terms are incorrect.

In some universe

 

Regards

Peter

[pugsley]

You walk into a shop.

You choose your telly.

You take it to the till.

You ask for the advertised 0% nothing to pay for 12 months credit.

Your personal details are taken and input onto a database.

Your details are cross referenced with the CRA's instantly.

Your details are retained by the retail store and the CRA (a credit check has been made).

Your personal details are made available to anybody who subscribes to a service offered by the CRA's.

You enjoy your telly.

You notice payments coming out of your account after 12 months which are excessive and unexpected.

You default on a different DD payment.

You are charged £35.00 for the pleasure.

You default again because of that charge and incur another.

You try to pay off the charges and default on one of your regular ones.

You default on the regular.

You take out an overdraft and pay off the excess.

You default on your overdraft and are charged the default rate of interest.

You take out a loan to pay it all off, at a fee.

You default, you default, you default.

You pay off what you can.

Your family suffers.

You lose your job because you can't focus.

You default, you default, you default.

You receive a Court Summons.

You ignore it.

You receive a threat to recover goods.

You ignore it and hope it'll go away.

You lose your telly.

Your charges have now risen to three times the price of the telly.

You're in financial ruin, and your name blackened, with no prospects of a mortgage or any other finance, and no chance of progression.

Your wife leaves.

Your mortgage is in arrears.

You can see the vultures circling.

You lose your home.

You never entered into a contract with the creditor, instead made an application with the sales assistant.

You haven't got an agreement, only made an application.

You do something you shouldn't out of desperation.

You get caught.

You get sentenced - 5 years.

You get your telly.

 

Have I missed anything?

 

Tide

 

 

 

obviously supposed to be funny but worryingly close to the truth for some:(

[Peterbard]

Hi

Just as a matter of interest ihave had it confirmed that the Distance Marketing Regs cover all consumer credit agreements executed away from the suppliers trade premises and without any face to face discussions with the supplier of the credit; and, where the supplier makes exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication (e.g. telephone, internet, fax, or mail) under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme. Therefore credit card application forms provided at petrol stations and internet suppliers have to comply with the Distance Marketing Regs and provide a cancellation period of 14 days no matter what cancellation rights or lack therof may be included in the documentation.

 

Regards

Peter

[Jaranius]

xx

[angry cat]

Oh No!

 

I think that we should all remember that there a ways of respectfully asking a question without sarcasm...peterbard has made 1,186 posts and often answering the same questions time and time again!

 

Angry Cat

[Peterbard]

I fail to see how a set of questions can imply that my tone is offensive in any way.

 

As you are well aware, others read for guidance, support and knowledge, often without the desire to engage or contribute for various reasons; it is for everyones benefit that I seek clarification.

 

If seeking clarification to prevent misunderstanding is viewed negatively, then you really have personal issues which I suggest you get help with.

 

Need I point out that we are dealing with a complex issue, which is unfamiliar to most of us and the ramifications are huge; especially if we have relied on information without factual evidence from the appropriate official source when seeking to defend ourselves in a court of law.

 

I am sure no-one wants to see anyone else in court, losing on account of a statement which they thought would be upheld in their favour, and jeopardising the stability of their families as a result of judgements going against them (in favour of the creditor).

 

Thank you for your advice in relation to pursuing my own evidence; I fully intend to contact the necessary bodies in relation to section 59 of the CCA 1974, but find your statements unfortunate, unnecessary and judgemental.

 

Jay-R

 

P.S. Don't worry about the PM; when I receive clarification of section 59 from the appropriate official source, I will post it on a thread for the benefit of everyone and to the exclusion of no-one.

 

Hi

 

Are you as arrogant as you appear

Do you have no idea what courtessy and repect for others i

do you have an IQ of over 3

 

Do you see how a string of questions can be offensive

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

Hi

Just re read you posting and i am fuming I have been helping people to the best of my ability for some considerable time now and have had my share of successes and failures but have always been acknowledged as someone who does their best to help.

Now you come along and accuse me of missleading people.

I suggest you change to another forum i don't see many on here putting up with you for long.

 

You say," need i point out we are dealing with complex issues." No do say you don't now the half of it.

 

Before you shoot your mouth off i suggest you look at my track record and then shut up untill you learn a bit more.

 

Peter

 

Peter

[angry cat]

Hi

 

So they are trying to fool you or the judge by giving you an application form but fiendishly icluding a cancellation notice.

 

Devilish clever and might work.

Never know might not notice that all the other form and terms are incorrect.

In some universe

 

Regards

Peter

 

Well, obviously there must be some kind of deception and or trickery. Becaue why would a creditor include a "Your Right to Cancel" on an application form. An application form is not an agreement!

 

I believe that un1boy was referring to the egg internet application of which egg would have sent an agreement to be signed by the applicant. However, they (egg) should have also sent a separate cancellation notice. Therefore, if egg had not sent the right to cancel notice separately, where would he stand.

Presumabely the EGG agreement is improperly executed, no correct issue date T&C's, no mention or the default charges and no cancellation notice.

 

I have been of the opinion that there is something very wrong about the early egg agreements.

 

Just my humble opinion

 

Love AC

[Peterbard]

Oh No!

 

I think that we should all remember that there a ways of respectfully asking a question without sarcasm...peterbard has made 1,186 posts and often answering the same questions time and time again!

 

Angry Cat

 

Thank you AC

the truth of the matter is this i enquiry to the OFT was really to do with an earlier posting from someone who was not sure if they had cancellation rights unfer the Ditance Marketing regs because the application form was one of the older type withou the precontractual information requred by the DMR.

As an afterthought i also asced how section 59 aplied in this scenario i honestly thought they would write back and say it didn't in fact the said

"In relation to contracts of the above nature which do not provide any scope for cancellations Section 59 of the CCA will apply and make the agreements void."

As you can imagine this made my ears prick up and i rang the contact number on the e-mail and managed to get through to the advisor.

Naturally my first question was if this is the cas how did contracts with no physical contact work before the DMS.

He said that there was a regulation that was allowed via 59(1) that excepted aggreemnt that had "scope fpr cancellation" This is why these agreements hac cancellation details on the while accordint to the cca they did not need to.

He did not have the regulation to hand and promised to e-mail it to me which is why i was reluctant to post half the information, i thought the posting i made might encourage debate and serve to stimulate investigation by others.

The implications of his could be considerable it depends on what the regs say when we find them, if the no cancellation clause is in effect across the board it would cover the validity of agreements signed on creditors premises as well as distance sold pre 2005 agreements.

Regards

Peter

[joesoap]

I've been reading and using these threads for quite a while now and it's fair to say I've used PB's info. This man is very knowledgeable. Please don't bring any nastiness into the discussions.

[Jaranius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by angry cat;804293

I believe that I applied for the Boots Advantage cc powered by Egg online, therefore the account must come under distance selling?

Interestingly enough though, when I made my DSIR data request over a year ago, egg did not send me the above copies?

 

Re: my S78 CCA 1974 request, the only items that I was sent were the two docs shown above plus the DD mandate.

... if this agreement (2001) does come under distance selling, where is the cancellation rights notice?

 

I am of the opinion that the docs provided do not fulfil eggs obligations under the "ACT" but I would appreciate a little bit more info re the cancellation rights under a distance selling internet cc application ....

 

Love AC

 

I can't see any response in relation to the emboldened text above.

 

If there were no face-to-face negotiations, does this 2001 agreement come under the distance selling regulations?

 

I know the main distance selling regulations act did not come into force until 2004, but I don't have enough info. to be sure if AC's agreement needs cancellation rights.

 

Awaiting the words of the wise ones, backed up with evidence, of course!

 

Jay-R

 

 

Thanks

 

Reply:6703 on this thread: dated 10th

May 2007-05-12 by Peter Bard

Hi

The distance selling regs do not cover consumer credit they are Consumer hire agreements and are subject to the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations as they do not involve a ‘financial service’ as defined

.

The distance marketing regs whichis i peresume what youa are refering to didnt come into force until 2004 so would not apply to your agreement.

 

Peter

 

Post 6734 on this thread, dated 11th May 2007 by Peter Bard

 

So any contracts which are not executed on the debtiors signature and are not cancellable are void.

Which opens whole new can of worms.

 

These statements seem contradictory, as the agreement I was referring to fitted the remit, so in order to clarify the matter, I ask questions. In my confusion, I seek clarification and commit the cardinal sin of asking FAR TOO MANY QUESTIONS (clearly the only one to do so).

 

Which is then followed by negative responses and a barrage of abuse.

 

I thought we were all on the same side, as I am not seeking to contradict or offend anyone, but cannot afford to mislead others who might rely on what I say.

 

As directed, I will post no further in this forum.

 

 

Jay-R

[hellhasnofury]

Oh come on boys, surely we are allowed to have a healthy debate without taking offense. surely we should be directing our venom at those who truely do us harm.

 

We cannot agree with every posting or bits of advice given, but surely you take the information and stew on it a bit and read more regarding the subject and read and ask and read.

 

I agree that sometimes things are a bit confusing, I have tried to read the acts especially the cca and have become more confused, but I am getting there hopefully.

 

This site is a self-help forum. There are many that are far more educated than myself. and yes I do read the info, and then I make my own decision on how to proceed.

 

Please Please lets get back to the reason why we are all here. reclaiming our rights:D

 

Peace:D

[Peterbard]

hI

I am sorry i don't understand the quotations yu sited are correct as far as i can see.The distance selling regs do not cover consumer credit they are Consumer hire agreements and are subject to the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations as they do not involve a ‘financial service’ as defined

.

The distance marketing regs whichis i peresume what youa are refering to didnt come into force until 2004 so would not apply to your agreement.Peter

So any contracts which are not executed on the debtiors signature and are not cancellable are void.

Which opens whole new can of worms

You are just betraying your lack of understanding of the whole subject take my advice and read a little before you comment further and make yourself look even more foolish.

I suggest you look at the loan thread and start from the begining and work through if you really want to learn i will be happy to supply you with the nessesarry regulations and links if you have questions someone on here will be happy to help if you don't understand the answere they wil explain they did for me only i wasn't quite so arrogant.

Regards

Peter

Petr

[Peterbard]

Hi

regarding the sectio 59 issue apparently we need to find

The Agreements to enter Prospective Agreements)

(Exemptions) Regulations 1983(a)

according to the 1983 regs i have tried ti find them on line i dont know if anyone esle might have more luck

Otherwise it is back to the library

 

Regards

Peter

r

[tamadus]

Ok Ok enough squabling

 

Firstly Jaranius most of the topics we cover in here are very complex and a lot of the time the argument can hinge around where the comma is placed. It is not easy to explain this to somebody firing off a lot of simultaneaous questions. Its taken 339 pages and a lot of posts for us to get this far. Peter has been here from the beginning, (ok just after I arrived lol) Myself and others know instantly what he is referring to simply because we have all followed the same path to get here.

 

Once again Peter has turned lights on for a lot of people following this thread, which is exactly what the thread is intended for. Namely questioning and applying our understanding of the answers we get back.

 

MOST of the work being carried out in this thread (yes work not discussion) is being tested by people like Peter, AC, myself and others, once the results of that testing are known and fully understood it's possible they will be simplified and published for everyone.

 

IF you understand the principles of the work because you have followed the thread closely for the last 7-8 months then you will understand that its very nature means we cannot risk giving detailed advice until we know the results ourselves. To do that would actually place people at more risk which none of us want to do. OK so people sometimes have to wait a bit longer for dessert, but I prefer that than losing dinner altogether.

 

This is great news to a lot of us and warrants more time and study so we can plan the best line of attack. Well done, yet again Peter.