Cap1 & CCA return

[davefirewalker]

oh oh........

 

dave hides

 

[Peterbard]

Hi DH

 

Actually the application form is part of the anticedal negotoiations but yse i suppose you could call it pre-contractual although also is an agreement untill it is executed.

 

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

Hi

No I think we must admit that an application can share the same document as an agreement. They do however represent two differnt documents.

An agreement is a persons request for more information about the product and contains details of income etc so that the creditor can decide whether he wants to enter into a contract with you.

 

A contract is when you have decided to enter into the contract and is executed when both signatures are on it.

 

The problem is i have been able to find loads of inormation about what should be on a contract and how it should be formated but i canot find anything about what should not be there.

 

For instance is it allowed to include requests for finantial or personal details of the debtor etc.

 

I wouldn't have thought not.

 

That i suppose is why these multi purpose documents are split into two halves.

One thing i do know is that the half that says agreement on it must be correctly formated etc.

The advertising regs state that the agreement must be entirely sepperate from any advertisment pertaining to it,not quite the same thing but the closest i have got.

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

Whoa Peter!

 

I didn't want to get embroiled in an argument, I was simply offering caigey some advice as a consumer and a member of the BAG/CAG.

 

peterbard

"The point is the aplication would not be acceptable as an agreement even if it had the signatures and prescribed terms, because presumably the punter would have thought they were signing an application form due to the fact that it said application form on the top".

 

Exactly correct. however, I do not accept the following quote:-

 

peterbard

"Don't forget an agreement can be used as an application thats what you do when you send an agreement off with your signature on it, the creditor will look at it and decide whether to execute it by giving his signature Section 61"

 

No, how can an application form for a credit card be considered to be an agreement?

The Applicant is blind, he/she does not know if he/she will be accepted. The Applicant has no idea as to what the credit limit might be?

Furthermore, as you put it the 'punter' (applicant) hasn't got the foggiest idea about 'the consumer credit act' and if you metioned s61 they would probably roll their eyes up to heaven.

Oh yes, the creditor may well look at the application and if they think that they can earn bucks out of it, then it will be approved.

 

This is all bordering on misrepresentation and possibly signing an official the ("Act") doc. under duress???

 

I am not a 'Rules & Regs' person, my craft lies within the Art's. However, I am not a fool but I do have the ability to apply 'COMMON SENSE'.

 

I do not know as to whether there is a Government Reg Doc that states that an agreement and an application cannot be upon the same doc., because the statutes are so engeniously written & amended. I am not a specialist in government statue/contract law, but it cannot be correct, because to dupe a consumer in that manner would clearly be misrepresentaion and or fraud.

 

Peter, please do not think that I am being antagonistic...I am just one of those souls with an extremely enquiring mind, thus I have to analyse.

 

peterbard

"If however it is presented as an agreement then you must judje it as an agreement and decide whether it is enforceable or not".

 

All that I can add, is that one should use Common Sense when making such a judgement/decison and only after being advised correctly.

 

Love AC:)

Hey AC

Don't appologis healthy debate is what this site should be all about.

I have the greatist respect for your views and insght no question.

Anyway back to the issue.

I did not say that an appliction can be used as an agreement on the contrarry i said tht it ablolutely cannot,what i said was that an agreement can be used as an application.

Say you have an ageement that has all the terms, and is correctly formated acording to the regs and you sign it and it remains unexecuted because the creditor has not. You the send it to the creditor and it becomes an executed contract on his signature,in that sense it is an application as the creditor may decide going off information on your true application not to issue the credit.

In fact even if it is an uncancellabe agreement if you get to the creditor before he signs it you can still back out.

This is how distance marketed agreements and the earlier uncancellable agreements worked.

The difference is that it will be an agreement not an application form that you send off.

The mention of a document that is also an application form mentioned in the cancellation OFT pamphlet is refering to this practice.

I am sorry if i am being unclear but once again i am not saying an application can be an agreement it most definately cannot what i am say ing that an agreemen an be used to apply for for credit.

 

 

Best regards

Petr

[TideTurner]

You walk into a shop.

You choose your telly.

You take it to the till.

You ask for the advertised 0% nothing to pay for 12 months credit.

Your personal details are taken and input onto a database.

Your details are cross referenced with the CRA's instantly.

Your details are retained by the retail store and the CRA (a credit check has been made).

Your personal details are made available to anybody who subscribes to a service offered by the CRA's.

You enjoy your telly.

You notice payments coming out of your account after 12 months which are excessive and unexpected.

You default on a different DD payment.

You are charged £35.00 for the pleasure.

You default again because of that charge and incur another.

You try to pay off the charges and default on one of your regular ones.

You default on the regular.

You take out an overdraft and pay off the excess.

You default on your overdraft and are charged the default rate of interest.

You take out a loan to pay it all off, at a fee.

You default, you default, you default.

You pay off what you can.

Your family suffers.

You lose your job because you can't focus.

You default, you default, you default.

You receive a Court Summons.

You ignore it.

You receive a threat to recover goods.

You ignore it and hope it'll go away.

You lose your telly.

Your charges have now risen to three times the price of the telly.

You're in financial ruin, and your name blackened, with no prospects of a mortgage or any other finance, and no chance of progression.

Your wife leaves.

Your mortgage is in arrears.

You can see the vultures circling.

You lose your home.

You never entered into a contract with the creditor, instead made an application with the sales assistant.

You haven't got an agreement, only made an application.

You do something you shouldn't out of desperation.

You get caught.

You get sentenced - 5 years.

You get your telly.

 

Have I missed anything?

 

Tide

[pford]

You walk into a shop.

You choose your telly.

You take it to the till.

You ask for the advertised 0% nothing to pay for 12 months credit.

Your personal details are taken and input onto a database.

Your details are cross referenced with the CRA's instantly.

Your details are retained by the retail store and the CRA (a credit check has been made).

Your personal details are made available to anybody who subscribes to a service offered by the CRA's.

You enjoy your telly.

You notice payments coming out of your account after 12 months which are excessive and unexpected.

You default on a different DD payment.

You are charged £35.00 for the pleasure.

You default again because of that charge and incur another.

You try to pay off the charges and default on one of your regular ones.

You default on the regular.

You take out an overdraft and pay off the excess.

You default on your overdraft and are charged the default rate of interest.

You take out a loan to pay it all off, at a fee.

You default, you default, you default.

You pay off what you can.

Your family suffers.

You lose your job because you can't focus.

You default, you default, you default.

You receive a Court Summons.

You ignore it.

You receive a threat to recover goods.

You ignore it and hope it'll go away.

You lose your telly.

Your charges have now risen to three times the price of the telly.

You're in financial ruin, and your name blackened, with no prospects of a mortgage or any other finance, and no chance of progression.

Your wife leaves.

Your mortgage is in arrears.

You can see the vultures circling.

You lose your home.

You never entered into a contract with the creditor, instead made an application with the sales assistant.

You haven't got an agreement, only made an application.

You do something you shouldn't out of desperation.

You get caught.

You get sentenced - 5 years.

You get your telly.

 

Have I missed anything?

 

Tide

 

You get three meals a day

[joesoap]

I like the bit about the wife leaving (ow! only kidding pet).

[adarling2006]

lol, ur only supposed to make comments like that when ur out of range lol, serves u right.

[paulwlton]

The agreement Capp 1 have just sent me as the heading.

 

ULTRA SHORT APPLICATION CERTIFICATE 8329.

 

Whats that all about.

 

Paul

[davefirewalker]

i think it means they havent a hope in hell of enforcing it

 

if it is an APPLICATION form

 

Dave

[elsinore]

 

Have I missed anything?

 

 

How about that thing you do out of desperation?

 

You come to blows with a bailiff and his cohorts, who break into your rented flat, legalised by the Tribunal, Courts and Enforcement Act and take your last valuable possession, your pet.

 

Els

[paulwlton]

i think it means they havent a hope in hell of enforcing it

 

if it is an APPLICATION form

 

Dave

 

It also states underneath the heading.

 

Application closing date 17th May 2004.

 

Somehow i don't think this is enforceable.

[tamadus]

How about that thing you do out of desperation?

 

You come to blows with a bailiff and his cohorts, who break into your rented flat, legalised by the Tribunal, Courts and Enforcement Act and take your last valuable possession, your pet.

 

Els

 

Not forgetting that your pet sinks its teeth into your leg in desperation

The bite then turns septic and you have to have your leg amputated (but not for 6 months because of NHS shortages) during which time you amass a fortune in parking fees at the hospital.

[davefirewalker]

And I thought it couldnt get any worse....

 

dave

[adarling2006]

i guess the ultra short bit means it's missing the prescribed terms and all the important bits needed in a properly executed agreement.

[davefirewalker]

If you want to see an ultra short (crap) agreement have a look at mine

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-763464.html

 

and thats all I got

[adarling2006]

my question is though, if that's what they send out, surely they must know somewhere in the collective that it falls way short of what a properly executed agreement is.

How can they be so stupid, or did they hope the consumer would be so dumb and stay blissfully asleep and unaware of the reg's in the CCA 1974.

[elizabeth1]

If you want to see an ultra short (crap) agreement have a look at mine

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-763464.html

 

and thats all I got

 

 

Looks like they in bother?

[elsinore]

How can they be so monumentally stupid?

 

Els

[paulwlton]

If you want to see an ultra short (crap) agreement have a look at mine

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-763464.html

 

and thats all I got

 

That so Ultra Short.

[davefirewalker]

yep and they are in ultra trouble but they dont know it yet....

 

(or maybe they do )

 

dave

[InKogneeToh]

You walk into a shop.

You choose your telly.

You take it to the till.

You ask for the advertised 0% nothing to pay for 12 months credit.

Your personal details are taken and input onto a database.

Your details are cross referenced with the CRA's instantly.

Your details are retained by the retail store and the CRA (a credit check has been made).

Your personal details are made available to anybody who subscribes to a service offered by the CRA's.

You enjoy your telly.

You notice payments coming out of your account after 12 months which are excessive and unexpected.

You default on a different DD payment.

You are charged £35.00 for the pleasure.

You default again because of that charge and incur another.

You try to pay off the charges and default on one of your regular ones.

You default on the regular.

You take out an overdraft and pay off the excess.

You default on your overdraft and are charged the default rate of interest.

You take out a loan to pay it all off, at a fee.

You default, you default, you default.

You pay off what you can.

Your family suffers.

You lose your job because you can't focus.

You default, you default, you default.

You receive a Court Summons.

You ignore it.

You receive a threat to recover goods.

You ignore it and hope it'll go away.

You lose your telly.

Your charges have now risen to three times the price of the telly.

You're in financial ruin, and your name blackened, with no prospects of a mortgage or any other finance, and no chance of progression.

Your wife leaves.

Your mortgage is in arrears.

You can see the vultures circling.

You lose your home.

You never entered into a contract with the creditor, instead made an application with the sales assistant.

You haven't got an agreement, only made an application.

You do something you shouldn't out of desperation.

You get caught.

You get sentenced - 5 years.

You get your telly.

 

Have I missed anything?

 

Tide

 

Have you been following me, Tide? :o:rolleyes:

[tamadus]

The problem is they have got away with the public being blind for so long that it is now a way of life for these companies.

 

Their business is pushing credit at us even when we dont want it, and if the paperwork is easier then their job is easier.

 

Does it matter to them if the agreements dont meet the requirements? Nope because they can just bully us into accepting whatever they say.

 

The tide is now turning and all those old scraps of paper are being shown to be nothing but the scraps they are.

[Jaranius]

xx

[adarling2006]

always liked blue peter though, amazing what they could make, suppose they did take a leaf out of the BP book and try and say "here's one i made earlier" the only good thing that will come out of this at the end is they tighten up their agreements so that they comply with the reg's. would be better for everyone, but i'm sure it'll take a while to filter through their collective heads.