Getting my knickers in a twist about going to court!

[Armsoft]

My latest dilemma is that while photocopying my statements I think I spotted some discrepancies with my schedule of charges. I'm trying to decide whether to check through them all and amend my claim or ignore it. Karn suggested (link 74 below) that Inga/Christine will check the charges anyway, so it probably won't make any difference whether my claim is accurate.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Firstly, if it were me, I would ensure that I checked them all, if only to ensure that if asked about them, I would want to feel as if I know what I`m talking about.

Secondly, if the difference is minor, I would proberbly not bother going to the expence of filing a change, as Karn has said, Inga & Christine are very thourough (unlike anyone else at the Abbey) and will check them anyway.

 

Depending on how much your claim is for (sorry, I can`t remember) you may feel that you want your case to be watertight, and therfore go to the expence of filing an ammendment, but just remember, to date, no one has had to argue their case in court against Abbey, and I`m sure that a Judge would overlook minor errors by a litigant in person, more so than if the Abbey case contained errors as this is what a legal team is employed to ensure does not happen.

 

Good Luck

[southerner]

....Secondly, if the difference is minor, I would proberbly not bother going to the expence of filing a change, as Karn has said, Inga & Christine are very thourough (unlike anyone else at the Abbey) and will check them anyway......

 

wouldn't I be able to claim the fee back from the Abbey?

 

Since posting the question (which I must have removed while you were typing your reply!) I realised the error wasn't as great as I originally thought - something had gone wrong with the formulae when I copied the spreadsheets from my personal workbook to the one I'll be sharing.

 

My original claim was for £7621 and it is now for £7706. Not a great change, but the reason for the change is that Abbey sent me lists of transactions for 2 of my accounts, thus enabling me to update the claim using actual rather than estimated figures. Abbey will therefore be aware that my original claim is inaccurate and on that basis I feel it might be safer to come clean with the judge.

 

This is a copy of the covering letter I'm sending with my bundle :

Dear Sir,

 

Claim Number: xxxxxxxx – Claimant: xxxxxxxxxx

Defendant: Abbey National Plc

 

I am enclosing copies of the documents on which I intend to rely at the court hearing on 7th March 2007.

 

Please note that the amount that I am claiming has increased to £7,706.00 plus interest plus fees. This is following receipt from Abbey National of lists of transactions for two of our bank accounts and this has enabled me to update the claim using actual, rather than estimated, figures. Please let me know if I need to complete any forms or send any fees to amend the claim.

As ever, any comments/advice are welcome.

[southerner]

Thanks Karn. That's brilliant.

 

I'm off to the Maritime museum now with my Mum and my nephew, but I'm getting so stressed out about this bundle, which has to be in by tomorrow, that I'd rather be at home finishing it off.

 

How sad is that for the Xmas holiday!

[southerner]

Oh - just one last question (I hope).......

Another quick question about the witness statement:

 

On the last page one of the paragraphs reads:

 

Statement of Truth

I believe the facts stated within this Witness Statement to be true and exhibit Exhibits comprising of ?? pages

 

Is ?? the total number of pages in the bundle (ie 197)?

[southerner]

I now have all the papers printed, collated and ready to go.

 

Just 1 last question (I think!) - Do I have to sign the Witness Statement?

[southerner]

Well, the papers have been delivered to the court and posted to Abbey. I shall now sit back and wait to see what happens next:cool:

[Armsoft]

Well, the papers have been delivered to the court and posted to Abbey. I shall now sit back and wait to see what happens next:cool:

 

tick tock, tick tock, tick tock,.................

 

Ring Ring, Ring Ring, Ring Ring, "hello"

"hello can I please speak to southerner"

"who`s calling?"

"its the Abbey"

 

I think you know the rest!

 

Coming to a phone near you, The Abbey Fold - The Sequel (989ish) - Any day now!!

[southerner]

tick tock, tick tock, tick tock,.................

 

Coming to a phone near you, The Abbey Fold - The Sequel (989ish) - Any day now!!

Don't hold your breath - my court date isn't till 7th March!

[Armsoft]

Did you ask for an order of Full Disclosure?

A letter to the Judge from the Templates section may speed things up for you, the `Draft Directions` that I thought Karn had put together (although she tells me it was not her) should do the trick for you as it allows only 14 days for compliance by both parties, and Abbey will not be able to comply as they are not prepared to Disclose their fee structures.

Maybe worth investigating over the weekend?

[southerner]

Did you ask for an order of Full Disclosure?

See post 59 in this thread. Is that the letter you mean? If so, then yes, I sent it. It doesn't ask for a 14 day response, though.

 

If there's another letter I could send without appearing to be harassing the judge, please could you point me in the right direction - I can't find anything in templates.

 

(BTW, I didn't send the second letter in the post - see post 65 for the reasons)

[Armsoft]

See post 59 in this thread. Is that the letter you mean? If so, then yes, I sent it. It doesn't ask for a 14 day response, though.

 

If there's another letter I could send without appearing to be harassing the judge, please could you point me in the right direction - I can't find anything in templates.

 

(BTW, I didn't send the second letter in the post - see post 65 for the reasons)

 

This is what I was refering too, I sent it off with my AQ, but I`m sure that with a supporting letter you could send it now -

 

The first a,b,c,d are things you will have to get ready to submit to the court if the judge agrees with your draft directions. So ask questions now.

Judges are ordering these things anyway, this should give them a nudge in th right direction and help them organise things for hearing a lot quicker.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

In the XXXXXX County Court

 

Claim number XXXXXX

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Between

 

 

XXXXXXXX - Claimant

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

XXXXX - Defendant

 

 

 

 

 

 

Draft Order for Directions

 

 

The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

• a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for that charge being made;

• b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made;

• c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise;

• d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

If the Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order.

 

 

 

2. The Defendant shall within 14 days thereafter file and serve a response to the Claimant's schedule, stating in respect of each item claimed;

• a) Pursuant to what contractual provision such charge was made, producing a copy of the contractual document relied upon;

• b) Whether such charge is accepted to be a penalty, and if not why not;

• c) If such charge is alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions (whether or not such action is treated as a breach of contract between the parties), all facts and matters intended to be relied upon as showing that such was a proper estimate of such loss, and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to what the true cost of dealing with the matter was;

• d) If such charge is not alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions then facts and matters intended to be relied upon showing the basis upon which the charge was calculated and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to show that the charge was fair and reasonable.

• f) Any witness statements.

• g) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

If the Defendant fails to comply with this order, the Defence will be struck out without further order.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Good luck, let me know if you need any further help

[southerner]

Thanks Armsoft.

 

I handed my bundle to the court on Friday, which was the date it was due, and I think it might look a little incompetent to hand in your letter so soon.

 

Neither I nor the court have received the bundle from Abbey yet, although the clerk at the court said that in view of the time of year they will allow extra time. I think that perhaps I should wait 14 days till I send this letter - and if the bundle still hasn't been received from Abbey by that stage it will be easy to justify.

 

Would the letter to the judge be something along the lines of "...I respectfully request that the the defendant be ordered to comply with the directions in the attached draft order..."? Sorry if that's a daft question - I'm not very good with the terminology!

[Armsoft]

Thanks Armsoft.

 

I handed my bundle to the court on Friday, which was the date it was due, and I think it might look a little incompetent to hand in your letter so soon.

 

Neither I nor the court have received the bundle from Abbey yet, although the clerk at the court said that in view of the time of year they will allow extra time. I think that perhaps I should wait 14 days till I send this letter - and if the bundle still hasn't been received from Abbey by that stage it will be easy to justify.

 

Would the letter to the judge be something along the lines of "...I respectfully request that the the defendant be ordered to comply with the directions in the attached draft order..."? Sorry if that's a daft question - I'm not very good with the terminology!

 

I`m off out now to start the New Year Celebrations (yes I know its still early, but I have invites to 4 parties, so need to try and at least visit all 4 before midnight:) )

When I get home from work tomorrow (hero hey, working on New Years Day) I`ll help you out with the letter

Have a Great New Year

[GaryH]

The draft order is discussed in detail here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/53570-new-strategy-allocation-questionaires.html

 

EDIT: Apologies if I'm missing something here (must admit I've only skim-read), but why would you propose the draft order at this stage? Directions have already been ordered and the bundles have been filed. If you did'nt propose it with your AQ its way too late now.

[southerner]

Thanks, Gary.

 

I've looked at the thread you recommended and in post 4 Bookworm has suggested:

- It won't work for estimated claims. Now, I know we don't encourage estimated claims, but there have been some around for whatever reason, some even justified, and we's need to make it very clear that the above could not be used for their cases, or it would be the ultimate own goal.

 

Unfortunately part of my claim is estimated - for some reason, when Abbey sent me the archived transactions they only sent them on 2 of the accounts. I think I'll just have to be satisfied with having included the following paragraph in the AQ:

I would respectfully ask that the court in this case, not withstanding allocation to the small claims track, order standard disclosure. I understand that it is in the courts discretion to do so. I believe this would bring a rapid end to this litigation.

I also sent the following letter to the judge on 15th Dec:

With reference to the above claim and the defence received from the defendant, I feel this is not complete in that the calculations required to prove the costs of the purported breach of contract are not included within the defence.

 

In your indulgence, I would respectfully ask, that you order disclosure of the calculations which justify the charges in question, that the Defendant may intend to use to defend the claim.

 

I understand that it is within your discretion to do so.

 

I believe such an order would bring a rapid end to this litigation.

I haven't received any correspondence from the court, though, suggesting that the judge has acted on either of these requests.

[GaryH]

Just out of interest, what directions were actually ordered?

[southerner]

Can't get my scanner to work, but as far as I can see there are no directions other than "Each party shall deliver to every other party and to the court office copies of all documents (including any experts' report) on which he intends to rely at the hearing no later than 29th December 2006"

 

Another question - Should I have included a Statement of Claim with my bundle? I didn't. If this was an error, hopefully the court would accept it now in view of the amount of time till the hearing date.

[GaryH]

Just the bog standard small claims directions then, albeit with an earlier than usual exchange deadline.

 

Statement of evidence you mean? Its not essential with those directions, but it certainly won't do any harm. You can include in your bundle anything you like - the more material you can find to add weight to your case the better. I'm sure the court would allow you to add it to your bundle if you sent it in with a short covering letter.

 

BTW, have Abbey ever actually submitted an evidance bundle in any of these claims, that we know of?

[southerner]

What will happen if Abbey doesn't submit their bundle to the court?

[southerner]

While I was typing that last post I was also downloading my emails. I've actually received a reply from Christine Cody at Abbey asking me for my phone number and giving me hers!

 

I'm working tomorrow, but I'll give her a call on Thursday morning. Any advice on what I should - and shouldn't - say ( apart from "gimme all of it!")?

[GaryH]

What will happen if Abbey doesn't submit their bundle to the court?

 

They would then be liable to having their defence struck out. Not sure whether you need a formal application to request this or not though to be honest. When's the deadline?

 

If it expires and theres still no settlement a week or so later, try sending this to the court. It certainly won't do any harm, if only to inform them that they're up to their old tricks again.

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

You -v- Lloyds TSB

Claim No:********

 

I, the Claimant, refer to the claim as detailed above and specifically the order made by district judge ***** dated **/**/**.

 

I wish to inform the court that the defendant has not complied with the order in that it has not served upon me the evidence, or any such documents, on which it intends to rely at the forthcoming hearing.

 

I made a request of the defendant's solicitor by telephone on **/**/** to provide me with its documents. The Defendant informed me that it could not tell me when, or indeed if, I would be receiving its documents as it was "awaiting clients instructions".

 

I can confirm that my documents were filed on **/**/** and served to the Defendant on **/**/**.

 

It is submitted that the Defendants non-compliance creates a significant imbalance between the parties in light of the forthcoming hearing, which I believe to be contrary to the overriding objective. This imbalance is particularly exacerbated by the fact that the Defendant is represented by specialist solicitors, whereas I am a litigant in person.

 

Accordingly, it is respectfully suggested that the court may be minded to make an order pursuant to Rule 3.4(2)© of the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

Yours faithfully

In the meantime I'll try and find out whether you need to apply for a strike out on an N244.

 

Are you sure you want to phone them? The advice of this site has always been to do everything in writing. That said, it looks as if it could be to discuss a settlement, so its up to you. Have some prompts of what (if anything) you intend to say/ask so you don't forget and make a transcript of the conversation as soon as you get off the phone. Also ask them to confirm the conversation in writing.

[tai24903]

Hi Southerner

I've been following your thread for some ime as you are at a similar stage to me.

I'm due in court on 8th feb, I need to submit my 'evidence' to Abbey before my court bundle. Its due any time now. I've noticed you had to submit your evidence to Abbey too and I'm wondering what the difference is between the 'evidence' I need to submit and my actual court bundle. I'm a little confused at this stage as to whether i should just send the court bundle now. Can you help?

I'm down to it being due within the next few days and as of yet have not received Abbey's 'evidence'.

Thanks

[southerner]

I'm sorry Tai. The letter I received from the court was very simple and as far as I can gather only asked for the basic court bundle Post the question again on your own thread and hopefully a mod will see it. Alternatively, you could try sending a pm to Karnevil .

[tai24903]

Thanks. I have already posted the question several times on my thread. I'll pm Karne - thanks again

[southerner]

I received this email from Inga today:

I have now received your microfiche bank statements on each of your accounts dating back 6 years. This obviously removes the "estimated" component of the charges claimed.

Could you please contact me on 0207 75 64332 so that we can discuss the estimated charges, with a view to settling this claim.

This is the reply I will send first thing tomorrow unless anyone suggests I shouldn't:

Thank you for your email.

 

I would prefer to conduct any discussions on this matter via email rather than on the telephone.

 

I have already received the archived statements for 2 of the accounts and have updated my claim accordingly. If you email me copies of the microfiche for the xxxxxxxx account this morning I should be able to update, amend and return the claim later today. I will also require the hard copies to be sent to me in the post

.