Ingeus

[Masso]

I've just had a thought...

 

Maybe I need to look for work abroad. I've always wanted to travel, I'm willing to emigrate/move abroad. I will cold call next week...

 

Does anyone have the international code for USA and Australia? Lol

[antone]

I've just had a thought...

 

Maybe I need to look for work abroad. I've always wanted to travel, I'm willing to emigrate/move abroad. I will cold call next week...

 

Does anyone have the international code for USA and Australia? Lol

 

I couldn't possibly condone this sort of thing. Really, seriously, no.

 

In order to make sure you don't dial any by accident (these things happen, you know) I would point out that the dialing code for the USA is 00 1 and the code for Australia is 00 61. As I said, please do not dial any such numbers accidentally.

[stikky62]

Yep, why would Ingeus waste their time on me when I've withdrawn consent?...

 

To try and annoy me i suppose! One thing that would annoy them is if i actually got a job offer from a cold call, they couldn't claim outcome payments as I've withdrawn consent! hahahaha

 

*update*

 

I've just read my job seekers agreement and it says...

 

*Write to at least 3 employers a week

 

*Phone at least 0 employers a week

*Visit at least 10 employers a week

 

*Search direct.gov 7 times a week

 

*Ask family and friends

 

*Look in local newspapers

 

So, if my agreement says phone 0 employers, then i don't need to cold call???

 

Depends how you look at it. You don't have to cold call by phone but you are supposed to be cold calling by visiting employers in person (10 per week), and writing to 3 more.

My JSAg is very similar though its write to 10, visit 5, and apply for at least 3 jobs per week. It's hard enough finding the 3 jobs to apply for each week and I've yet to write to or visit 'on spec' any employers. (what a waste of time!!)

 

I don't know what WP are expecting me to do yet (I'm waiting for a first meeting with a new advisor) but as long as I'm keeping Job centre happy and they're not questioning my job hunting efforts, the WP can go ---- ---------- (4 + 10)

[Masso]

Dials 0906 *** ***...

 

"Hi, may i speak with the Manager?"

 

....."err, I'm the Manger. How may i help you?"

 

"Well, I was wondering if you have any job vacancies?"

 

......"err, Yeah you can do any job you want, anything!"

 

"Fantastic, what do you do? Anything you say?"

 

2 HOURS LATER.....

 

I then hang up. I walk over to my Advisor and tell him I've been offered a job, he asks for the Managers name and telephone number...

 

Oh its 0906 *** ***, and her name is Betty Swallocks............................

[RebeccaPidgeon]

@rebeccapidgeon...

 

The letter is the standard one with appointment time etc.

 

On the back it says...

your activities for your next appointment are:

Client to come in and call through list of Bars to sell personal licence and self to them.

 

Funny thing is, Ingeus refused to help me with my personal licence back in March. Now my Advisor won't shut up about it...

Okay...unfortunately, if you dont follow through, they can sanction you. However, if you dont have a Personal Licence of whatever description (I am not familiar with pub/bar/club work),this could be problematic.

 

I suggest that you simply use the opportunity, Cold Call selected bars, try to speak to the Manager within each, and simply state that you are currently looking for Bar Work, and try to arrange a face to face interview. If they ask you to send a CV in, respond by suggesting that you would be happy to meet them in person, where you can leave a CV and discuss opportunities directly.

If you haven't cold called before, I suggest that you refer to the following link which covers Telemarketing

 

Good Luck.

[Masso]

Thanks...

 

Which is why my previous Advisor waved at me in a childish manner, he is probably hoping to wave goodbye to me with a sanction...

 

In a way Ingeus are using bullying tactics...

 

I have no proof/evidence to back myself, I don't think the Job Centre would listen to me? I sign on next Tuesday before the meeting with my Advisor, I will ask for some advice etc...

[Masso]

@Rebecca... PM'd you

Edited January 3, 2013 by Masso

[Bullpoofilter]

If its the job of the contact centre staff to contact you to see how your getting on (cough cough) who's job is it to contact your employer? Sorry just a question, I asked my manager about it before I withdrawn consent and he said it was the JC, and he a had quite a few phone calls off them, is it you old advisor who contacts them or is it someone higher up in that branch?

 

It's neither, it's normally done by one of the administrative team.

 

In order to put a job start on the system the details must be entered by the advisor. Things like pattern of hours / the manager's name and contact details.

 

It then goes off to a seperate person to be 'evidenced'. This is to build in a safety stop to prevent people altering the figures.

 

Now, again, I guess someone is going to say 'ah but another provider doctored the figures'. But, that's how it worked for us.

[Bullpoofilter]

@Rebecca... PM'd you

 

Removed as per Masso's post

 

Richard, he's asking you to come in because you've been mandated to attend the WP by the Job Centre. Regardless of whether or not they can claim an outcome payment they still have a job to do.

 

Not providing or withdrawing consent to share information doesn't remove their duty to comply with what they've been contracted to do.

 

It's a misconception that they'll leave you alone - in fact, your adviser is doing exactly what they've been tasked to do.

 

It's definitely not a shame if you get a job either - I'm sure they'll be as happy as you are.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Bullpoofilter

[Masso]

@bullpoofilter...

 

I removed that email within minutes, you managed to copy and paste it!...lol....

 

Iv'e sorted it with my Advisor now. After a few emails we've come to an agreement, a fresh start and to put the past behind us...

[Bullpoofilter]

@bullpoofilter...

 

I removed that email within minutes, you managed to copy and paste it!...lol....

 

Iv'e sorted it with my Advisor now. After a few emails we've come to an agreement, a fresh start and to put the past behind us...

 

I'll remove it for you now

[G4C389]

It's neither, it's normally done by one of the administrative team.

 

In order to put a job start on the system the details must be entered by the advisor. Things like pattern of hours / the manager's name and contact details.

 

It then goes off to a seperate person to be 'evidenced'. This is to build in a safety stop to prevent people altering the figures.

 

Now, again, I guess someone is going to say 'ah but another provider doctored the figures'. But, that's how it worked for us.

 

Pattern of hours? Do I take it they were aware that i went from getting 40 hours a week to 10-15 hours a week? I wasn't happy with my advisor when I got the job because them contacting my employer nearly got me sacked before I started, ( because I put down something else on the application form instead of the WP) she said it was contractual guidelines they do it, I apologised as I thought she was just doing what she had to do. Do advisors get a cut of the money ingeus gets paid for a client getting a job? (I got this job myself you see)

[Bullpoofilter]

Pattern of hours? Do I take it they were aware that i went from getting 40 hours a week to 10-15 hours a week?

 

Not if you didn't tell them.

 

I wasn't happy with my advisor when I got the job because them contacting my employer nearly got me sacked before I started, ( because I put down something else on the application form instead of the WP)

 

I don't think you can really blame her for that to be fair. Your signature on the application form as a 'true and accurate reflection' is the bit that nearly got you the bullet. Glad you dodged it though!

 

Do advisors get a cut of the money ingeus gets paid for a client getting a job? (I got this job myself you see)

 

No, an adviser is paid a salary - progression through the salary scales is dependant upon length of service and overall performance - you'd never get an individual bonus / commission for having one person go into work.

[G4C389]

Not if you didn't tell them.

 

 

 

I don't think you can really blame her for that to be fair. Your signature on the application form as a 'true and accurate reflection' is the bit that nearly got you the bullet. Glad you dodged it though!

I didn't blame her, I had a go at the system, I wasn't aware at the time that they had to contact employers, I politely asked her not to prior to it, after that I needed bus fare for my first weeks work and she helped with that although I expected her to say no, I apologised about my moaning, I got bus fare from her and the only help. I got was from my advisor really. And yes my signature on the application form is, but I don't think she cared I lied on the app form as long as I got a job and she got a job start towards her targets.

 

 

No, an adviser is paid a salary - progression through the salary scales is dependant upon length of service and overall performance - you'd never get an individual bonus / commission for having one person go into work.

. I heard they go through a lot of staff, I havnt been there for 6 months so I don't know if them same advisors will still be there (sorry there is a section in yellow I replied to)

[Bullpoofilter]

Drop in another copy of the letter withdrawing consent, and stating that if you are offered a job, you will also be telling the Employer that they may not speak to Ingeus, simples.

 

I would imagine most employers that know their onions would refuse to discuss an employee with an outside corporation anyway, not without sight of, or requesting permission from the Employee, it leaves the employer in potential big trouble, legally - it is far easier to simply refuse to provide info on staff.

 

Agreed, if it's something you feel strongly about then there's no harm in re-stating your position formally. Saying that you'll do one thing and then doing another is just adding fuel to a fire that needn't be there. Re-submit the withdrawal and ask to speak with the manager if they're available so that it's all buttoned up.

[osdset]

but do you honestly think INGEUS would behave in such an underhand way?

 

Err, yes.

[debt4get]

the problem as i see it, big business is in cahoots with govt and would probably gladly give out the information, that you are employed by morrisons who are in effect one of the biggest 'employers' of the w2w [problem]. anyway, how would you know if they had been in touch or gained the outcome money? morrisons are hardly likely to tell you and ingeus certainly wouldnt!! regardless of any of us withdrawing consent personally i think they will ignore this with govt blessing!!

[antone]

It seems I have the privilege of being in the very last intake since this scheme is now cancelled.

 

Which scheme is cancelled?

[Katrianah]

An acute form of Cargo Cult Science... another example is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. Although someone reported that A4E mandated conscripts to attend NLP, delivered by "NLP Practitioners", I am not sure whether i) the baloneous technique is more widely used within other W2W pimps, and ii) whether tutors have been reported for attempting to practice medicine without possessing a license.

 

In respect to the Flexible New Deal, it was common practice for agencies to recruit tutors to deliver "Employability Training" within the Welfare To Work Sector (such as A4E and Working Links) where candidates need not have been qualified teachers, and needed to possess no teaching qualifications.

 

Wait, wait, are you saying CBT is as useless (and indeed dangerous in some cases) as NLP? Because, uhm, no. Seriously. No. CBT is a recognised and well regarded form of therapy. NLP is quackery.

[caledfwlch]

Wait, wait, are you saying CBT is as useless (and indeed dangerous in some cases) as NLP? Because, uhm, no. Seriously. No. CBT is a recognised and well regarded form of therapy. NLP is quackery.

 

It's a treatment for people with mental health issues isn't it? Being on benefits does not mean you have mental health problems so why are A4E allowed to do CBT? They aren't allowed to use or prescribe other medical treatments. indeed, where ESA claimants are being sent to Providers, the letters are VERY clear that the Provider may not prescribe or attempt to force you into taking a treatment.

 

This is what Wiki has to say on CBT:

 

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a psychotherapeutic approach that addresses dysfunctional emotions, maladaptive behaviors and cognitive processes and contents through a number of goal-oriented, explicit systematic procedures. The name refers to behavior therapy, cognitive therapy, and to therapy based upon a combination of basic behavioral and cognitive principles and research.

CBT is thought to be effective for the treatment of a variety of conditions, including mood, anxiety, personality, eating, substance abuse, tic, and psychotic disorders. Many CBT treatment programs for specific disorders have been evaluated for efficacy; the health-care trend of evidence-based treatment, where specific treatments for symptom-based diagnoses are recommended, has favored CBT over other approaches such as psychodynamic treatments.[1]

 

So, erm, not something you would expect a work programme provider to send you on, this absolutely IS forcing benefits claimants to undertake medical treatment against their will.

[Chester6]

It's a treatment for people with mental health issues isn't it? Being on benefits does not mean you have mental health problems so why are A4E allowed to do CBT? They aren't allowed to use or prescribe other medical treatments. indeed, where ESA claimants are being sent to Providers, the letters are VERY clear that the Provider may not prescribe or attempt to force you into taking a treatment.

 

This is what Wiki has to say on CBT:

 

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a psychotherapeutic approach that addresses dysfunctional emotions, maladaptive behaviors and cognitive processes and contents through a number of goal-oriented, explicit systematic procedures. The name refers to behavior therapy, cognitive therapy, and to therapy based upon a combination of basic behavioral and cognitive principles and research.

CBT is thought to be effective for the treatment of a variety of conditions, including mood, anxiety, personality, eating, substance abuse, tic, and psychotic disorders. Many CBT treatment programs for specific disorders have been evaluated for efficacy; the health-care trend of evidence-based treatment, where specific treatments for symptom-based diagnoses are recommended, has favored CBT over other approaches such as psychodynamic treatments.[1]

 

So, erm, not something you would expect a work programme provider to send you on, this absolutely IS forcing benefits claimants to undertake medical treatment against their will.

sounds like a way to manipulate the unemployed into taking any job and being more amenable to the provider

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Unfortunately, the "Black Box" underpinning Work Programme Contracts gives complete autonomy and freedom to W2W Pimps to submit candidates to whatever "Process" they can justify It was reported, for example, on Dec 29 that the Behavioural Insight Team (the Nudge Unit) of Downing Street, are basing decision making and the roll out of services within Job Centre Plus on "Behavioural Psychology".

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/30/jobseekers-dole-nudge-unit-psychology

 

The nudge unit has been working for the last six months at a jobcentre in Loughton, Essex, where claimants who took part in the trial were around 17.5% more likely than those in a control group to be off benefits, 13 weeks after signing on in the same centre. The changes it has made will be introduced at other jobcentres in the county and in the north-east of England.

 

The unit made three changes to the way jobseekers in Loughton were treated: the amount of paperwork was reduced at the first meeting so that the claimant could talk about getting back to work from day one; the conversation was focused on what jobseekers would do for the next fortnight and they were encouraged to make written commitments; and advisers at the centre were told to build the confidence and wellbeing of those still claiming after eight weeks, rather than treating them as failures.

 

Unfortunately, if such techniques are used within the Work Programme, it is likely that any criticism will arise from candidates afterwards, will be subject to internal review, whereas the DWP are quite happy (to date) to support the "Black Box" approach....haven't yet incorporated any semblance of verification and validation of the service delivered both through the Prime and Subcontractor Supply Chain. And, once they have a contract, there is nothing to prevent any prime adopting in their entirety the techniques associated with the "Cult of Scientology" as a means of disciplining candidates.

[estellyn]

It's a treatment for people with mental health issues isn't it? Being on benefits does not mean you have mental health problems so why are A4E allowed to do CBT? They aren't allowed to use or prescribe other medical treatments. indeed, where ESA claimants are being sent to Providers, the letters are VERY clear that the Provider may not prescribe or attempt to force you into taking a treatment.

 

This is what Wiki has to say on CBT:

 

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a psychotherapeutic approach that addresses dysfunctional emotions, maladaptive behaviors and cognitive processes and contents through a number of goal-oriented, explicit systematic procedures. The name refers to behavior therapy, cognitive therapy, and to therapy based upon a combination of basic behavioral and cognitive principles and research.

CBT is thought to be effective for the treatment of a variety of conditions, including mood, anxiety, personality, eating, substance abuse, tic, and psychotic disorders. Many CBT treatment programs for specific disorders have been evaluated for efficacy; the health-care trend of evidence-based treatment, where specific treatments for symptom-based diagnoses are recommended, has favored CBT over other approaches such as psychodynamic treatments.[1]

 

So, erm, not something you would expect a work programme provider to send you on, this absolutely IS forcing benefits claimants to undertake medical treatment against their will.

 

No one should be forced into a therapy. But some will be grateful if it is available (by properly accredited professionals), as CBT places are like gold dust, with huge waiting lists via a GP.

[caledfwlch]

Unfortunately, the "Black Box" underpinning Work Programme Contracts gives complete autonomy and freedom to W2W Pimps to submit candidates to whatever "Process" they can justify It was reported, for example, on Dec 29 that the Behavioural Insight Team (the Nudge Unit) of Downing Street, are basing decision making and the roll out of services within Job Centre Plus on "Behavioural Psychology".

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/30/jobseekers-dole-nudge-unit-psychology

 

 

 

Unfortunately, if such techniques are used within the Work Programme, it is likely that any criticism will arise from candidates afterwards, will be subject to internal review, whereas the DWP are quite happy (to date) to support the "Black Box" approach....haven't yet incorporated any semblance of verification and validation of the service delivered both through the Prime and Subcontractor Supply Chain. And, once they have a contract, there is nothing to prevent any prime adopting in their entirety the techniques associated with the "Cult of Scientology" as a means of disciplining candidates.

 

Using scientology would open a can of worms for a Provider I would have thought! Not least from claimants who hold a faith.

 

No one should be forced into a therapy. But some will be grateful if it is available (by properly accredited professionals), as CBT places are like gold dust, with huge waiting lists via a GP.

 

Indeed, and given such rarity/shortage of places for people who medically need it, it seems even less likely that A4E are using properly accredited professionals....

[Bullpoofilter]

I'm astonished that no-one's mentioned this as yet: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20905415

 

Labour has said it would offer the long-term unemployed a guarantee of a six-month job if it was in government. Businesses would be given subsidies to hire people on a temporary basis, with those refusing a suitable job having benefits docked. Labour said the move sent a "clear message" about its stance on welfare but admitted it could not commit to the scheme if returned to power in 2015

 

So, what if you didn't like the job you were given?

Does this make workfare more like workfair?