Parking notice not issued **appeal was upheld.**

[walter100]

Hi

 

6 weeks ago I parked in a disabled parking bay to pop into a shop for lierally a few minutes. I came out to find a traffic warden in the process of issuing a ticket. I ran over and told him I was moving. He told me it was too late as he had already doing the ticket. He was, at this stage still printing the ticket out of his hand held ticket machine.I got in my car to drive off to which he shouted "you can't do that until i've given you the ticket"

I drove off whilst he frantically took photos of my car.

 

I assumed I would hear nothing else as the ticket had not been placed on my windscreen and so I thought had not been "issued"

 

My car is a company car that is on hire.

 

I have today recieved a notice from the local parking partnership stating I owe £70 for the offence.

It states that "The person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle was served with a penalty charge notice which allowed 14 days for payment of a 50% discounted penalty charge"

 

Was the ticket actually served or do I have grounds to appeal?

 

I know I shouldn't have parked in the bay for the 5 minutes or so..... but £70 seems a bit steep when i did not have a slip to pay with within the 14 days as the traffic warden still had it!

 

Any advice would be appreciated

 

Thanks

[honeybee13]

Hello there, welcome to CAG. Please can you tell us who the notification is from, a parking company or the local authority for instance?

 

My best, HB

[walter100]

Local authority Honeybee

[queensclose]

sadly its valid. law has changed. it does not have to be attached to the windscreen in cases of drive off's or threats to the warden. cant really see an appeal working either as you fled the scene

[Coupon]

I would disagree, I think there are grounds for appeal here - and why on earth would you not appeal all the way now that you have 'lost' the discount?

 

Is the notice a Notice to Owner? And it says the P.C.N. was served on you, when it wasn't?

 

They should have sent a postal PCN (REG 10) for a drive-off and they haven't, by the sound of it, they have just sent a NtO?

 

QUOTE Reg 10(4) Gen Regs 3483

4) Subject to paragraph (6), a regulation 10 penalty charge notice may not be served later than the expiration of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which, according to a record produced by an approved device, or information given by a Civil EnforcementOfficer, the contravention to which the penalty charge notice relates occurred (in these Regulations called “the 28-day period”).

QUOTE

[queensclose]

I can see your point. The first thing the warden would have done. And the pocket book should confirm is send via post after obtaining your address. Is send the PCn via post.

I .guess the hire company received it.

Ok it sounds like you were served personally by what is said. But the warden told you a ticket was being issued.

An appeal won't harm but don't expect plain sailing

 

Simple thing is a disabled space is for a disabled person. This offence is what the public hate. Double yellows single yellows not displaying a ticket etc we all like to fight

 

But using a disabled space. You asked for it

[patdavies]

I can see your point. The first thing the warden would have done. And the pocket book should confirm is send via post after obtaining your address. Is send the PCn via post.

 

No. The CEO should have noted that the S.9 PCN was not served and the Council would issue an S.10 PCN within 28 days.

 

Ok it sounds like you were served personally by what is said. But the warden told you a ticket was being issued.

An appeal won't harm but don't expect plain sailing

 

An S.9 PCN must be affixed to the vehicle or handed to the driver. Saying "it's just printing", doesn't cut it

 

Simple thing is a disabled space is for a disabled person. This offence is what the public hate. Double yellows single yellows not displaying a ticket etc we all like to fight

 

But using a disabled space. You asked for it

 

This is a personal opinion, and a rather sweeping generalisation. Personally, regardless of the alleged contravention, I would fight any PCN. I tend to think as regards the law as opposed to any moral wrongdoing

[queensclose]

No. The CEO should have noted that the S.9 PCN was not served and the Council would issue an S.10 PCN within 28 days.

 

no one knows it wasnt served. its a hire car. thats were the pcn would have went

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a personal opinion, and a rather sweeping generalisation. Personally, regardless of the alleged contravention, I would fight any PCN. I tend to think as regards the law as opposed to any moral wrongdoing

 

its not a personal opinion. a disabled space is for a blue badge holder. not for someone who wants to pop into the shop

[Coupon]

Agree with you both, I will always fight the corner of disabled motorists from personal family experience and would never condone parking in a disabled bay where there is no disability need. And I would always fight a Council P.C.N and appeal all the way, there's always grounds to appeal.

 

And with this case, we DO know for sure that the P.C.N was never served, as long as the OP is telling us the truth about it not being handed to him nor affixed to the car. The P.C.N cannot have been posted to the keeper because of this wording:

 

'the person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle was served with a penalty charge notice'

 

Those words are talking about serving a P.C.N in person. If that did not happen then the OP has a solid appeal!

[patdavies]

The S.9 PCN was not served.

 

The Council will issue an S.10 PCN by post. A S.10 PCN also acts as NtO. If this went to a hire company,they would complete it as such and return it. The hirer (OP) would then get their own S.10 PCN.

 

The communication received by the OP refers to a previous opportunity to pay the reduced fee (ie an S.9 PCN) which was never served

 

Procedural impropriety on the part of the Council

[ihateyes]

i cant see what more the warden can do, toher than stand infornt of vehicle while some irate person decides im off.....

 

Personally.... pay the fine.... if i was on the council appeal panel, the fact you fled when you know you were getting a ticket, would make me more determined to enforce the ticket.....

 

You shouldnt flee the scene, when you know you done wrong.....

 

also to above poster..... if car was a company car ticket wouldve went to hire company/then passed to the business/or the address hire company held for driver.... so driver then further complicated matters by fleeing.

[patdavies]

i cant see what more the warden can do, toher than stand infornt of vehicle while some irate person decides im off.....

 

Personally.... pay the fine.... if i was on the council appeal panel, the fact you fled when you know you were getting a ticket, would make me more determined to enforce the ticket.....

 

You shouldnt flee the scene, when you know you done wrong.....

 

also to above poster..... if car was a company car ticket wouldve went to hire company/then passed to the business/or the address hire company held for driver.... so driver then further complicated matters by fleeing.

 

What a load of nonsense.

 

1) there is no council appeal panel - appeals go to an independent adjudicator

2) whilst there may be a moral reason to wait, there is no legal reason whatsoever

3) the PCN is not passed on - the company will get their own s.10 PCN - as this appears not to have happened, then we can reasonably assume that no s.10 PCN has been issued and that the Council are trying to enforce a non-served s.9

4) they stupidity of the Council's actions here are a prime example of why you should drive off if you can

.

[ihateyes]

What a load of nonsense.

 

1) there is no council appeal panel - appeals go to an independent adjudicator

2) whilst there may be a moral reason to wait, there is no legal reason whatsoever

3) the PCN is not passed on - the company will get their own s.10 PCN - as this appears not to have happened, then we can reasonably assume that no s.10 PCN has been issued and that the Council are trying to enforce a non-served s.9

4) they stupidity of the Council's actions here are a prime example of why you should drive off if you can

.

 

Maybe my post was harsh, but i fully agree with my earlier posting....

The OP knew they were getting a ticket, and made away fromt he scene....

If there is grounds to appeal... fine.... what im stating is they shouldve took the ticket, and appealed on whatever grounds they feel they could appeal on.

 

End of the days, the op parked in a disabled bay not displaying a badge and when confronting the warden, and advised they were getting a ticket, they fled the scene...

[Surfer01]

I find it quite annoying when I want to use our local shop that there are cars parked in the disabled bay wihtout a BB just because the person is only going to be 5 minutes. the strange thing it is normally young woman or mothers who seem to do this. However in the meantime I have to drive around the block and hope that thney have left by the time I get around again.

You made a mistake like we have all done at some point and we had to pay the penalty. Accept the penalty and get on with your life isntead of worrying about how you are going to fight this ticket.

[ihateyes]

well said surfer...

[crem]

Why is it BB holders on CAG seem more than willing to help fellow CAGgers fight any type of parking ticket EXCEPT when the OP appears to have used a disabled bay?

 

As far as I understand it, CAG is to help posters review whether a PCN is valid, and/or whether all the correct procedures have been followed by the council. In this case, it appears the council have not correctly adhered to the procedures therefore the PCN is no longer valid as patdavies is pointing out.

 

It would be better if advice was factual rather than based on morals.

[walter100]

Thanks for all the posts. I knew I would be condemed by some for parking in a disabled bay and I understand your comments when you say I should just oay the fine as I asked for it.

 

It was 5:50pm though and the 2 disabled bays were the only ones free out of a total of 5 bays on the street. I didn't think there was a great chance of the 2 disabled bays being needed at that time on a Wednesday night.

 

I think I will appeal though.........is the following paragraph from coupon the best angle to use?

 

QUOTE Reg 10(4) Gen Regs 3483

4) Subject to paragraph (6), a regulation 10 penalty charge notice may not be served later than the expiration of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which, according to a record produced by an approved device, or information given by a Civil EnforcementOfficer, the contravention to which the penalty charge notice relates occurred (in these Regulations called “the 28-day period”).

QUOTE

 

Thanks

[hessey50]

as said earlier It may well be that the notice was served on the registered keeper the hire co within the 28 days they reply say ing who was in care and control of the vehicle and then you should get the notice the point is that while you may well have committed the contravention and many would say you are in the wrong morality aside it would appear that the authority has gone about the enforcement process the wrong way

if they had used the section 10 they would be using the right process but saying you were served with a section 9 if you were not is not and that is where the grounds for appeal would lie?

[green_and_mean]

On street its very rare that taking up a blue badge bay actually inconveniences a blue badge holder, they can also park in pay and display bays free and on single and double yellows and in most areas in permit bays. The only advatage a BB bay has is there is not usually a 3 hr limit. It is far more common for bb holders to inconvenience regular car drivers by taking up bays when they can park on the adjacent yellow lines. The majority of bb bays traffic orders also permit loading so seeing a non badged car or van parked doesn't mean that they are always parked in contravention.

[queensclose]

On street its very rare that taking up a blue badge bay actually inconveniences a blue badge holder, they can also park in pay and display bays free and on single and double yellows and in most areas in permit bays. The only advatage a BB bay has is there is not usually a 3 hr limit. It is far more common for bb holders to inconvenience regular car drivers by taking up bays when they can park on the adjacent yellow lines. The majority of bb bays traffic orders also permit loading so seeing a non badged car or van parked doesn't mean that they are always parked in contravention.

 

i agree when searching for a parking space all blue badge spaces are empty. no all normal space are full. blue badge holders are meant to show courtesy. they only should park on double and single yellow lines when there are no other options open.

as far as loading and unloading. you will get a ticket

this is the councils view

 

Disabled Parking Bays

 

What does this mean?

 

This is a parking space for Blue Badge holders only. In Gateshead, you must display a Blue Badge to park in a disabled parking space.

 

What will happen if I do not display a valid Blue Badge?

 

If you stop in a disabled bay (even just to pick up or set down a passenger) and you do not display a valid Blue Badge, you may receive a Penalty Charge Notice. You may also receive a Penalty Charge Notice if you display your badge the wrong way round. You must display your badge with the expiry date and serial number visible from outside the vehicle. The photograph should never be visible.

 

Loading and Unloading

 

Unless a Blue Badge is displayed, loading and unloading is not allowed.

 

What happens if I park slightly over the bay markings?

 

You must park completely inside the bay markings and you should not use the space unless all of your vehicle can fit inside the bay markings. Any vehicle parked with at least one wheel outside the bay markings may be issued with a Penalty Charge Notice.

 

The sign does not show any days of operation.

 

If any sign does not mention specific days, it means that it is in operation every day of the week.

[starfarer]

sadly its valid. law has changed. it does not have to be attached to the windscreen in cases of drive off's or threats to the warden. cant really see an appeal working either as you fled the scene

 

when was it changed?

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/user_documents/R%20(TfL)%20v%20Parking%20Adjudicator%20Judgment.pdf

 

On recent appeal I put this words:

 

I would also like to challenge on grounds of procedural impropriety:

 

1)PCN was never attached to any part of vehicle or ever handed personally to me as a person who is in charge/appear to be in charge of vehicle or as a driver. As stated already, I was actually not aware that CEO was observing alleged contravention and in process of issuing a PCN. Nor did I noticed CEO taking any photographs of the vehicle. The first time I became aware of the alleged parking contravention was on 07/05/11 upon receipt of NTO dated 04/05/11.

 

2)NTO states that PCN was issued. The concept of word “issued” was raised in Case no CO/3422/2006 The queen on the application of Transport for London (Claimant) v The Parking Adjudicator (Defendant) and hence agreed by both sides that “issue must mean the act of fixing the PCN to vehicle or giving it to the person appearing to be in charge of vehicle”.

 

Again the word “attempt” to issue is clearly differentiated from preparatory act which is simply to input details into computer or to write ticket by hand.

 

“Prevention” is explained by Draft code at paragraph 51 under the heading “Service of PCN” and as “prevented from serving the PCN in the normal way by violence or threats of violence(s.5 London Local Authorities Act 2000)”

 

Lamina v Tfl case no 2050307012 “Driving away does not of itself amount to preventing the PCN being issued”.

 

 

NTO do not have any photos attached of alleged contravention and especially that a PCN was served. If this is the case of “handed to driver”, I would believe under regulation that CEO must inform whether PCN is likely to be served if and when driver of the vehicle returns and That he/she is not in simply PREPARATORY STAGE whereby CEO still can print PCN long time after vehicles is driven away, and CEO's note on pocketbook reflect this with other details such as confirmation of driver or person in charge of vehicle, brief physical description, complete tax disk details and any other conversations that may had happened and any such details as such noted by CEO of being prevented from serving a PCN by an act of violence or threats of violence.

 

I'm still looking for another letter I wrote before regarding "person appearing to be in charge of vehicle".

[queensclose]

When was it changed

 

http://www.islington.gov.uk/directories/page.aspx?dir=faq_details&docid=0901336c805e881a&title=FAQs

 

You need to be upto date on changes

[starfarer]

so nothing is changed. Read my post above esp point (2).

 

@op: go through the link above.

[walter100]

Hi everyone

I've got me appeal hearing on Tuesday. Just to confirm.....

 

My appeal is that no S.9 was issued at the scene or by post even though the traffic warden states in the papers I have recieved from the local authority that they handed me the ticket at the scene!. This blatant lie has made me even more determined to win this.

 

This is proof that no ticket was issued by post as the authority do not even claim to have done this - only that the ticket was handed to me at the scene.

 

They have sent me 7 photohraphs and not one of them shows the ticket on my car or the ticket having been issued. Surley if the officer had issued me with the ticket at least one of the 7 photos would have shown this!!

 

I'll let you all know how I get on.

 

Incidentley - what does S.9 & S.10 stand for??

 

Thanks

[Jamberson]

Not sure of the full history here - have the council ever claimed that the PCN was served to you at the scene or by post?

 

When you say "They have sent me 7 photohraphs and not one of them shows the ticket on my car or the ticket having been issued. Surley if the officer had issued me with the ticket at least one of the 7 photos would have shown this!!" - this does not really support your case. If the Council's version of events (ie that you were handed the PCN in person) were true, the photos wouldn't show that - so they don't actually contradict what the council are saying. It's just an issue of whether the CEO gave the ticket to you in person.

 

S.9 and S.10 - don't know literally what they stand for but an S.9 is a conventional parking ticket (PCN) and a N.10 is a postal one, sent out if the S.9 could not be served.