Anyone experienced rejection of NHS treatment as seen privately for 2nd opinion

[terriersaregreat]

A word of warning- my daughter having been desperate for someone to help her back problem saw a surgeon privately for a 2nd opinion. His opinion was that she needed urgent surgical intervention and was putting her on his urgent NHS list, and yes she was a suitable candidate for surgery.

 

It was not until over 6 months later and various excuses that she discovered she was not on any list as it is not policy to swop private referrals to the NHS.

 

If she had not sought the 2nd opinion she would now be in a wheel chair. As it is as a direct result of the lack of communication she is still waiting for the operation and is now only able to walk a few steps. At least she knows she is now on the NHS list (that's another story)but my god was it a fight!:mad2:

[nolegion]

Commiserations to you and your daughter, terriers ag.

 

Taking a flying guess, please may I ask, did that bland expression 'co-payments' come into your fight to get scheduled for proper NHS treatment?

[terriersaregreat]

Sorry not sure what you mean 'co payments?

[nolegion]

'Co-payment' is an - in my view silly - expression used by the NHS to signal the fact that where someone has paid for something 'privately', the NHS then feels indignantly entitled to withdraw all healthcare for that patient, at least concerning the condition in isssue.

 

It made quiet a few headlines 2 or 3 years years ago in connection with people paying for anti-cancer drugs which the NHS wouldn't fund - only to find that any related healthcare was then withdrawn by the NHS for that patient. I'll find a link or two, soon as I have a mo.

 

It may have no bearing on your case, but I wonder...

[terriersaregreat]

OK think I know what you mean. Not really. Daughter was admitted to hospital 2 years ago torn disc. That consultant said not putting her forward for spinal surgery as if she had surgery disc above would go within 6 months. Daughter was suffering terrible pain and on morphine.

 

12 months down the line GP suggested neurologist to help with pain as daughter was at risk of losing job. Neurologist said not suitable candidate.

 

As far as I know only 2 opinions allowed on NHS. Daughter was sacked and was so depressed with pain and loss of job i pursuaded her to seek advice from a surgeon who had been recommended to me. This had to be funded privately. This surgeon also said that she was an urgent case and would transfer her to his NHS list. This action was not allowed.

[nolegion]

'Co-payment' is an - in my view silly - expression used by the NHS to signal the fact that where someone has paid for something 'privately', the NHS then feels indignantly entitled to withdraw all healthcare for that patient, at least concerning the condition in isssue.

 

It made quiet a few headlines 2 or 3 years years ago in connection with people paying for anti-cancer drugs which the NHS wouldn't fund - only to find that any related healthcare was then withdrawn by the NHS for that patient. I'll find a link or two, soon as I have a mo.

 

It may have no bearing on your case, but I wonder...

[nolegion]

Sorry for posting twice!

[terriersaregreat]

no probs

[nolegion]

I follow that. How did you get daughter back into the NHS 'stream' then? Back round through a GP to a NHS consultant?

[terriersaregreat]

Well the stupid thing was that because we were ignorant of the issues, we were informed by the NHS hospital that her funding had been withdrawn.(she was travelling to a different trust for the op and would need funding from the local board)

 

Initially the suggestion was that she should see a local consultant be referred to the other trust with the expertise and that she start again. In reality the NHS wanted to pay the surgeon again for a consultation!

 

The very helpful (oh yeh!) NHS surgeon's secretary told my daughter to get on with it and sort it! I spoke to the Board's secretary explained what had happened and they decided to fund her after a letter from my daughter of her history, a letter from her GP in support and the support of our MP.

[nolegion]

During all which time your daughter has been in pain and outof work. Staggering. I shudder to think what a patient in her condition wouldface without the diligent support of family such as yourself. Sincerely trust all goes well for the op\treatment, terrierag.

[honeybee13]

Hello TAG. Thank you for warning people, but honestly what a load of rubbish from the NHS. Surely one can ask for a second opinion in a fair world.

 

I hope your daughter is better soon, she's lucky to have you fighting for her.

 

HB x

[beachbird]

Hi i have been private quite a few times over the years paid to see the same consultant got my results then told him im having the op on the NHS, its never been a problem, the only reason i paid was to hurry it along for the tests and results i was so worried i just couldnt wait weeks and weeks so i paid, but going private never stopped me using the NHS for my ops after , hope this helps you

[terriersaregreat]

Things have changed fairly recently it's the "co-payment" thing. So please be careful getting private advice.

 

Thanks to all for kind comments. Fortunately after receiving more agro from inhuman, unsympathetic staff was referred to a fantastic lady by chief exec's secretary (also kind lady)(and yes I was still fighting for someone to listen) who has been absolutely wonderful, she referred to my daughter as tolerant and patient. Someone who listens, hurrah!

 

Should get a date for her operation on Tuesday.

 

It is so awful for family to see relatives in pain and be helpless, my daughter has been in constant pain for two years but the last two weeks have been worse than can be described.

 

Thanks again!

[honeybee13]

Hi there, thank you for letting us know. I hope it all goes well and congratulations on getting this far.

 

HB x

[zippygbr]

Hi i have been private quite a few times over the years paid to see the same consultant got my results then told him im having the op on the NHS, its never been a problem, the only reason i paid was to hurry it along for the tests and results i was so worried i just couldnt wait weeks and weeks so i paid, but going private never stopped me using the NHS for my ops after , hope this helps you

 

 

Some Trusts/PCTs allow you to be referred back into the NHS but there is no queue jumping - so if you got your private OP appt in a week rather than 4 for an NHS one you'll mark time in the queue for 3 weeks before being listed for a procedure ...

 

the issue of people opting in and out of NHS treatment is down to the accusations of queue jumping that exist and also the difficulties presented sometimes in getting results and imaging conducted in the private sector into the NHS - to the point where it;s cheaper to waste everyone;s time and effort and re do them ...

 

in terms of second opinions -it depends on the questions being asked at the time , the NHS is not going to fund people going round and round touring different consultants in the hope that one might give the patient what they want rather than what is most clinically appropriate.

[terriersaregreat]

Well this is the question:- What happens when there is a WRONG opinion such as with my daughter? i.e. advised by 1st consultant that he would not refer her for spinal surgery. GP in an effort to help with the pain suggests 2nd opinion with a neurologist. Neurologist says not a suitable candidate. If she hadn't paid to go privately she would now be wheel chair bound permanently.

 

As for queue jumping my daughter was put on the bottom of the urgent list from the private consultation i.e. 3 months. As a direct result of not being allowed to change to NHS she has now been waiting over 10 months. So who did the queue jumping.

 

In this case therefore had my daughter receive the proper diagnosis two years ago she would not have lost her job, she would not be taking slow release morphine plus other medication and would not be sent to ATOS (the mention of their name makes my blood boil) to be examined by a CONTRACTED OUT DOCTOR (IS THAT PRIVATE?)

 

Where is the saving in all that and what about the fact that my daughter and husband pay NIC? Is it legal to refuse treatment under the NHS?

 

As for the employees of ATOS I am utterly disgusted that people who have been trained by the NHS have opted out and work for this PRIVATE ORGANISATION. Perhaps we should ask them to repay the NHS for their training!

 

My daughter paid to see a consultant privately believe or not the NHS were prepared to pay him again until this was sorted out. In the past lists were smaller and yet we had private rooms on nearly all wards in hospitals. The private sector helped to subsidise the NHS.

 

No apologies for the rant!

[nolegion]

Excellent rant TAG - touching, I think, on some very central points concerning state medical incompetence and this wretched,unresolved, post-code-lottery, so-called ‘co-payments’ business.

 

A little bit of candid, uniform, fair policy and practice could ensure that nobody who has saved the state money by paying for competent advice, from whatever source, is ever seen as a‘queue-jumper’. It’s absurd that it should be otherwise. Further it is inhuman to think of denying vital treatment to someone who might have spent their last pennies finding out what is actually needed but can afford no more ‘private’ help. That’s obscene.

 

But in this fragmented, grossly unprofessional, secretive and bullying system which no government - least of all the present one - has ever had the guts to sort out properly, what chance do we have?

 

Grinding confrontation is all that is left us. So fight on.

 

I will not always be popular for saying it, but unaccountable systems normally grow and thrive because at least some people are happy to benefit from it. As regards hospitals, for decades, it is the senior doctors themsleves, I am afraid who, both the competent and incompetent at consultant level, are paid (prime)ministerial salaries for jobs which still leave them, apparently, plenty of time and energy to earn yet more money by way of what in most other executive-level lines of work would be the sackable offence of moonlighting.

 

Outside medicine and banking, most people I have ever known who earn that sort of money would be far too exhausted to think of working any more hours in the day or week than they already do as matter of course \ routine commitment to either their employer or their own business as the case may be.

 

When it’s made illegal for consultants to behave in this fashion unless and until a) they have elected fully to pay back the cost of their state-funded training getting them to consultant level, or and\or b) are always obliged to spend twice the hours they do privately back in the NHS for nothing, we will see a far more focused result and fairer way ahead; and TAG’s daughter might even have encountered competent advice within the NHS which would make a change. It's not the patients who need to be told how to deal with private options. It's the doctors.

 

Of course, if you are as wealthy as a consultant there’s just no probs. You can pay for both the advice and the treatment\surgery - which you can have in a private clinic tomorrow. Simple. And many NHS doctors and their families 'go private' from start to finish.

[terriersaregreat]

FANTASTIC RANT, nolegion! Applause.....................

 

Whilst my daughter was waiting for pain relief in the first year of this appalling charade, this was 13 injections into the facet joints, (she was looking forward to this so that she could get back to work) her employers, a county council, interviewed her to see when she would be likely to return to work. By this time she was no longer in receipt of sick pay.She was pressurized to return to work bearing in mind she was taking morphine!

 

The facet joint injections did not work much to her dismay and agony. That would be in December 2009. The C/C continued to harrass with interviews despite my daughter being signed off by her GP. Eventually in May 2010 she was sacked.

 

She was called in for an interview from the Jobcentre who after some argument agreed not to interview. (I asked them if they had a stretcher available)She was then called in by ATOS who deemed her fit for work. I had an up and downer with them asking where they had been trained and yes they had left the NHS to work in the private sector for more money.

 

It was at this point that I checked out where NIC payments went. It is an interesting exercise. I had thought that there was a connection between sick pay, benefits etc and NIC, but it appeared not. The payments are only for the NHS and there was a massive lump sum from which the interest covers the budget for the NHS.

 

I simply can not accept that where NICs have been paid that it would be legal to stop NHS treatment. If you paid an insurance and you were denied the benefit for that insurance I think that would be a breach of contract.

 

As to the remark about people going from one consultant to another for a diagnosis that may be what they want and not clinically appropriate don't start me on that.............personal experience, neighbours experience is evidence enough that mistakes are being made unless the patient is determined to seek help. There are of course fantastic GPs, surgeons, nurses out there who are doing one heck of a good job. Thank you but there are numerous pen pushers who are set to mess up the system.

 

Ah well today's another day and should be the day for the future date for daughter's operation. She continues to suffer despite my rants..............

Edited May 31, 2011 by terriersaregreat

[terriersaregreat]

Bad news folks looks like I will still be ranting and still fighting. Sounds like helpful lady "got at". New tactics needed today.

[frankieg]

I don't know if it helps but doesn't a patient have the right to be treated at any hospital they want? Is the surgeon your daughter saw at an orthopedic hospital or just the 'local' . If it was just a general hospital why not find the best orthopedic hospital and request your GP refer her to it? And your GP does seem to be trying to help her why not talk to him/her about a new referal?. If its a matter of her having already seen an orthopedic consultant so using her one 'chance' she is entitled to request a different consultant. But not a second opinion -thats different -under NHS rules a patient can request but isn't entitle to a second opinion.

[terriersaregreat]

Thanks for the thoughts but this is not the case though we all seem to think it is. Different areas have to fund you for going to another area. My daughter was eventually funded by our local authority. She has been referred to a specialist unit.

 

GP is fantastic and is doing all he can to keep her out of pain. He feels we must not now change to a different hospital as list will probably be longer.

 

It is awful seeing her like this, there is a promise of the operation in 4-6 weeks. It really is inhuman and it is affecting her family too. At present she is almost a zombie with all the medication she is taking. it is quite frightening the number of hours she is sleeping.

 

I am so angry as are our friends and neighbours that see her.

[terriersaregreat]

Update- still waiting confirmation letter for confirmed dates of surgery. Daughter now sleeps most of the day as she is drugged up to the eyeballs to keep her out of pain. She has now received an appointment for interview at Jobcentre. This should be interesting!

 

I am getting more and more angry about doctors, surgeons, nurses who have trained on NHS and have transferred to Private health care in part or in full.

 

It appears that many surgeons not only attend their Private clinics but also lecture, are expert witnesses and advise various private clinics. Where do they get the time? Obviously something has to suffer.

 

Since this has started I have researched more and more about how much time surgeons give the NHS. The figures are worrying to say the least!

[beachbird]

Hi terriersaregreat, im saddened to hear about your daughters suffering and how she has to wait, for this op, yes it is disgusting the way she has been treated, i have evn emailed landsley the health secretary not that he answers me, to leave your daughter in that amount of pain is cruel, i have back pain every day because of degenerative discs that have collapsed, her family are suffering as well, the hospital should have done something by now, i hope and pray she gets that op very soon then take that complaint up with the hospital after she has it done and get that COMPLAINTS FILE it will probably shock you to see what they have said even about you, im waiting on my sons file now i have also put in for this file at another hospital where they let him go home with a blood clott on his brain which deteriorated and has left him with brain damage, i want to see why they didnt drain it, keep us updated about your daughter please will keep her in my thoughtsxxx

[terriersaregreat]

Sorry Beachbird that I didn't respond, worried about certain issues, think I've been watched. Jobcentre suddenly cancelled appointment, no explanation.

 

Still no op will update when, if it ever happens.

 

So sorry to hear about your son. How badly damaged is he?

TAGx