Confiscation of ticket

[Passenger]

Stumbled upon this excellent site and would be grateful to hear people's views on what happened to me recently:

 

When passing through the barriers at a First Capital Connect station, I mistakenly gave the inspector my ticket from the day before which was also in my pocket. Inspector says ticket not valid, I say oh yes it is, he says no it has yesterday's date on it. Realising I had taken the wrong ticket out of my pocket, I then gave the inspector my valid ticket for that day which was also in my pocket.

 

A genuine & simple error, no fraud or evasion, had a valid ticket at all times, would have thought that would be that.

 

5 or 6 inspectors then crowd around me in quite an aggressive way. They refuse to give me back my ticket which was a return so I needed it for my journey home. Matters got heated - admittedly I was not as calm as I might have been - but equally the way in which*the inspectors were crowded around me was quite threatening. Two policemen then turned up and calmed things down, they took my details but that was it.

 

The inspectors refused to give me a receipt for the tickets they had taken. I also asked for the inspectors' name and details: the one who had actually taken my tickets refused, one of the others and told me his name & number, but still refused to show me any identification badge etc. so I had no way of knowing if the details were correct.

 

Since my ticket was confiscated, I had to buy another one for my return trip.

[rebel11]

Hi Passenger

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will advise as soon as they are available.

[Wriggler7]

Good old Rebel, he thinks we will advise!

 

One of the huge difficulties with 'advice' on an open forum like this is that 'we' never get the full story.

 

I have no experience of ticket Inspectors on FCC, and on my local line, a few of them know my face, and are always very pleasant. As such, my immediate problem is one of 'belief'. I do not understand why, after the correct ticket was produced, one of them didn't make light of the whole thing, a quip about 'it was hiding' or somesuch.

 

The 'prosecutors' amongst us will probably talk about 'difficult to comment' without sight of the Inspector's report, or the CCTV.

[Wriggler7]

Let us take this at absolute face value, and accept entirely your version. The Inspectors were out of line. Once Thecorrect ticket was produced, that should have been 'Thank you, enjoy the rest of your day.'

 

As such, I recommend a complaint to FCC customer relations.

 

I would, however, strike a warning note, because this just doesn't fit with my experiences of even the most wooden headed Inspectors that I have met. Are you sure that you were not 'smart' with them?

[Passenger]

Let us take this at absolute face value, and accept entirely your version. The Inspectors were out of line. Once Thecorrect ticket was produced, that should have been 'Thank you, enjoy the rest of your day.'

 

As such, I recommend a complaint to FCC customer relations.

 

I would, however, strike a warning note, because this just doesn't fit with my experiences of even the most wooden headed Inspectors that I have met. Are you sure that you were not 'smart' with them?

 

As mentioned, at first, I did argue with the Inspector that the ticket I initially produced (ie the one from the day before) was vaild - so he may well have thought that I was somehow being 'smart' - but this was only becuase I genuinely hadn't realised that I had given him my ticket from the day before.

 

As soon as he said that the reason it wasn't valid was becuase it had yesterday's date on it, I realised that I had just given him the wrong ticket and that my ticket for that day was still in my pocket. I then gave him this 2nd ticket with the correct date. But by this point, a whole gang of inspectors had crowded around me and, as I mentioned in my OP, I did lose my cool when they refused to give me back my tickets.

 

The inspectors may well have thought that I was somehow 'trying to pull a fast one', but this was genuinely not the case and I did have a valid ticket. I think that the inspectors got all excited that they caught a fare-dodger (which is, of course, thier job) and a sort of aggressive gang mentallty takes over. Once they label you as a 'fare-dodger' they can't then switch back into treating you as 'paying customer'.

[Passenger]

Got carried away with the psychology of this incident, rather than the legalities...

 

Does anyone know if Inspectors had the right to confiscate my ticket? If so, do they have to give you some written notice/receipt of this confiscation?

What happens about my return journey?

Do they have to produce ID badges and give you their name if requested?

[RPI]

I'll have wild guess that the tickets in question were "open" returns?

[Passenger]

No, not open returns.

 

Ironically enough, they were complimentary tickets given to me by FCC as compenstion - each is valid for one day return. They are a sort of scratch card in which you fill out the date, details of your journey and name. You then seal the ticket with a stickly plastic cover. Before anyone asks the obvious question, I had already properly filled in and sealed both tickets.

[Wriggler7]

Yes, they need to show their 'ID' if requested, penalty fare collectors may not 'collect' unless they have their badge on display. They do not need to give 'their name', just sufficient that they can be identified, although if a case goes to Court, their name, but not their address, will be disclosed to the defendant.

 

People do tend to get a bit carried away with 'identifying' inspectors, in the event of any complaint, they can be identified from rosters, from the records of the penalties that they have issued, and if need be, from the CCTV.

[Stigy]

Got carried away with the psychology of this incident, rather than the legalities...

 

Does anyone know if Inspectors had the right to confiscate my ticket? If so, do they have to give you some written notice/receipt of this confiscation?

What happens about my return journey?

Do they have to produce ID badges and give you their name if requested?

Yes they can take your ticket off you, and no they don't need to supply a receipt. This whole afair does seem rather strange to me though, as, if what you say is a true and accuarte account, I really can't see how they had the right to take the ticket. They can't just confiscate a ticket for no reason. And yes, they should always produce ID, although their 'collar' number would be sufficient.

[Passenger]

Thanks for all the replies, although my story may not ring true, it is what really happened! i was amazed at the attitude of these inspectors. This is an anonymous forum, so I've got no reason not to be frank & honest.

 

Have done a bit more digging myself and under cl 20 of the national conditions, a train company can confiscate a ticket if the passenger materially breaches the conditions, but must give a receipt. This may also explain why the inspectors were so reluctant to identify themselves.

 

The identity of the inspectors is very important, since without this it would be difficult for me to make an effective complaint.

[honeybee13]

Hello. I'm just a bystander in all this, but why would you keep yesterday's ticket about your person when you knew it had expired? Forgive me if I'm being thick.

 

HB

[Passenger]

Hello. I'm just a bystander in all this, but why would you keep yesterday's ticket about your person when you knew it had expired? Forgive me if I'm being thick.

 

HB

 

LOL! No ulterior motive or even conscious decision, had just left the ticket that I used the day before in my coat pocket and wore the same coat the next day. There are no barriers at my home station, so my tickets do not get collected at the end of my journey.

 

Moral of the story: wear different clothes every day

[SRPO]

Inspectors only need to give a receipt if they take a ticket for 'investigation', if they believe the ticket to be have been used they can simply withdraw the ticket with no receipt. Also if the ticket is seized as an exhibit they do not need to give a receipt (common law power to seize evidence). It is confusing but tickets do remain the property of the railway company.

I have seen this type of scenario before when a passenger 'confronts' an inspector (or at least that is the perception of the other staff) generally they will club together to show that they outnumber you & that any escalation will end badly for you.

Its simply human nature to help you friends/colleagues.

 

By all means make a complaint if you feel harshly treated, any half decent inspector will have made a note of the incident just in case.

[Wriggler7]

The train company will know who the people were at the time and place that you describe. Or will be able to work it out.

 

If need be, the Company can check the CCTV, although I understand that the 'London terminii' systems are operated by British Transport Police, whereas most stations, the CCTV is operated by the main station operator.

[Passenger]

Inspectors only need to give a receipt if they take a ticket for 'investigation', if they believe the ticket to be have been used they can simply withdraw the ticket with no receipt. Also if the ticket is seized as an exhibit they do not need to give a receipt (common law power to seize evidence).

 

Thanks SRPO - do you know the source / legal basis for this right to seize tickets? As I mentioned above, I had a look at the National Conditions of Carriage which say: If you do not comply in a material way with any Condition that applies to the use of a ticket, staff or agents of any Train Company may withdraw the ticket and you will be given a receipt.

 

I have seen this type of scenario before when a passenger 'confronts' an inspector (or at least that is the perception of the other staff) generally they will club together to show that they outnumber you & that any escalation will end badly for you.

Its simply human nature to help you friends/colleagues.

- I think this is exactly what happened here. Of course it would have been better for me to stay calm & collected, but it is difficult when one is confronted in this way.

[Old-CodJA]

I agree with the earlier comments, that on the face of it, if your post is wholly accurate, they do appear to have been out of order.

 

However, I'd like to add one little query. Are you sure that when you 'lost your cool' as you put it, your actions did not constitute any other offence or breach of Byelaw?

 

You say that two Police Officers took your details and that was 'that' and also say that the tickets in question were 'free tickets' given as compensation.

 

Just playing Devil's advocate here. If there is any other allegation, it may be that your details will have been given to the inspector by the Police Officer for a report should it be necessary and the 'free' tickets can be submitted in confirming that they were issued to you and that you were the traveller involved.

 

Any more thoughts?

 

.

[Passenger]

I agree with the earlier comments, that on the face of it, if your post is wholly accurate, they do appear to have been out of order.

 

However, I'd like to add one little query. Are you sure that when you 'lost your cool' as you put it, your actions did not constitute any other offence or breach of Byelaw?

 

You say that two Police Officers took your details and that was 'that' and also say that the tickets in question were 'free tickets' given as compensation.

 

Just playing Devil's advocate here. If there is any other allegation, it may be that your details will have been given to the inspector by the Police Officer for a report should it be necessary and the 'free' tickets can be submitted in confirming that they were issued to you and that you were the traveller involved.

 

Any more thoughts?

 

.

 

I don't know what other byelaw I could have broken?

 

I did lose my cool when the inspector refused to give me back my ticket. It all happened v quickly. 5 or 6 inspectors all crowded around me in a tight circle. I was certainly arguing with them - probably shouting, "that's riduculous, you can't take my ticket like that, I need it to get home, give it back" or similar.

 

The Police turned up, they took me aside and asked for ID which I gave them. They checked my details and I told them what had happened with my tickets. I then asked the Police to come back with me to speak to the Inspectors again, which they did. I then asked for the Inspectors' details and a receipt for the ticket they had taken. One of the Inspectors verbally gave me his name and id no but they wouldn't give me a receipt.

 

There was no suggestion that my ticket wasn't valid (and presumably if there had been I would have been issued a penalty charge).

 

The free tickets were issued to me and I had written my name on them.

[Wriggler7]

Many 'county' constables are jealous of the railway byelaws. If you fish up a set, quick to do on line, you will find wonderful pieces of legislation, 'interfering with the comfort of person on the railway', being a person reasonabley suspected of breaching a byelaw, refusing to give a name and address, and so on.

 

If you were 'argumentative', it may be that the inspector considered that you hade breached a byelaw.

 

Byelaws are a much lesser offence that (for example) the Public Order Act. That is partly why they tend to carry lower penalties, but they exist none the less, and are there 'to be used'.

 

Many actions that away from the railway would merely make a bystander think 'thats bad' are listed as offences.

 

It is easy for us armchair advocates to see a funny side to something later, but I wonder if at the time, the Inspector felt in some way that you had 'offended'. It is why I started by being 'reticent', as we have not heard the other version.

 

Hopefully, if no-one's pride has been too severly dented, it should all end well.

[Passenger]

Thanks Wriggler - the Railway Bylaws (on the DfT website) do indeed make interesting reading!

 

Byelaw 6 covers "Unacceptable Behaviour" and states:

"(1) No person shall use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway.

(2) No person shall behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway.

...

(8) No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway."

 

Happily, I don't think I breached any of these!

 

The good news is that these Byelaws (with some exceptions) apply to Ticket Inspectors as well as everyone else, so the way in which the Inspectors behaved - threateningly and wilfully interfering with my convenience - could be argued to be in breach of these rules and therefore a criminal offence.

 

Byelaw 24(3) is also clear that:

"An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person."

 

So the Ticket Inspectors may well have also committed a criminal offence in refusing to provide ID when I asked. It is also clear that the it must be a FORM of ID, ie it was not sufficient for the Inspectors to just tell me their name and ID number as they did.

 

It is also fairly clear to me the FCC Inspectors that I encountered don't really know these Byelaws or the National Conditions that well. I might even carry copies around with me in case anything like this happens again.

 

Thanks for all the responses - really appreciated.

 

[Wriggler7]

'Law' applies to everyone, and of course the staff also have their company codes of behaviour to comply with, which sometimes will apply even when the byelaw wasn't quite breached.

 

You may have read a bit of 'tennis' about a 'famous incident', where an inspector was alleged to have assaulted a passenger.

 

For the passenger, police considered whether he had breached 'non railway law', that is to say all those wonderful Acts which apply to all of us wherever we are, Public Order Act, Offences against the persons act and so on, or Railway Byelaws. The police also considered whether the member of staff had broken any of those laws to a point where action was required. (Police will have checked with the Crown Prosecution service)

 

Once that dust had settled, the Company then considered whether the Inspector had acted within Company guidelines, effectively meaning that the inspector had an extra level of scrutiny to satisfy.

[Wriggler7]

If/when you make a complaint to FCC, after they decide whether the Inspectors were 'correct' to behave as they did, they will also consider whether it was the image that they want their front line staff to give.

 

Regulations require that the Company keeps records of all complaints against 'authorised collectors', and they do have a 'cumulative effect'.

 

It may lead to 'further training', it can lead to dismissal.

 

That is part of the reason for our collective early 'disbelief', as all railway staff know that even technically lawful behaviour can lead to dismissal if it is likely to 'bring the company into disrepute'.

[rebel11]

I have a lot of faith in you guys, the experience, the knowledge etc:!:

 

Good old Rebel, he thinks we will advise!

 

One of the huge difficulties with 'advice' on an open forum like this is that 'we' never get the full story.

 

I have no experience of ticket Inspectors on FCC, and on my local line, a few of them know my face, and are always very pleasant. As such, my immediate problem is one of 'belief'. I do not understand why, after the correct ticket was produced, one of them didn't make light of the whole thing, a quip about 'it was hiding' or somesuch.

 

The 'prosecutors' amongst us will probably talk about 'difficult to comment' without sight of the Inspector's report, or the CCTV.

[Old-CodJA]

Like Wriggler7 and others, I would not attempt to second guess what might have happened further than the original post and yes, there are some pretty powerful 'catch-all' Byelaws still available to us

 

One thing that will help immensely in resolving this particular case is the fact that you said there were five or six inspectors and two police officers.

 

That suggests to me that this was a London station and that being the case, there will almost certainly be better than average CCTV coverage that may be able to assist in determining what, if any, action is likely.

 

.

[Passenger]

But is there any way I could get hold of the CCTV? Presumably it is only available to the train company, and they are hardly going to be likely to let me have footage that shows their staff in a bad light.

I did make a note of the police's numbers and the reason I was so keen to get a receipt for the confiscated ticket and details of the inspectors was so that I would have good evidence of the incident.

I made a compliant to FCC Customer Services by phone the same day, and now that I'm clear of the legal position, I'll follow this up with a formal written compliant.