Confiscation of ticket

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks, I think that this is the key point - as I understand things, breach of the Railway Bye-Laws is a criminal offence and it is therefore only the Court which can impose a fine (after hearing the evidence and reaching a guilty verdict).

 

In my case, even if the Inspectors thought that I had breached the Bye-laws, this would still not give them right to confiscate my ticket. Rather, the correct procedure would surely be to report the matter to the police who would then take it to Court if appropriate. From what was posted above, it seems that Inspectors in confiscating my ticket were in effect imposing a fine on me equal to the cost of my ticket as an arbitary punishment for what they said was a breach of the Bye-laws. I just do not see that, as a matter of law, the Inspectors had any right to do this.

 

From reading other threads, it seems that there is a critical distinction between penalty fares imposed by Inspectors - which are not a criminal matter - and Court actions for breach of the Byelaws - which are criminal. I do not think that Inspectors have the right to impose fines for breaches of the Bye-laws.

 

I also now suspect that the reason the Inspectors refused to give me a receipt or properly identify themselves is that they knew that they hadn't followed the proper procedure and that they did not have the right to confiscate my ticket as they did.

 

As others have said, your highly individual interpretation is completely and utterly wrong.

 

The Rail Companies employ their own prosecutors or engage agents to prosecute on their behalf. Having joined the former BR in the 1970s, it is no exaggeration to say that personally, I have presented tens of thousands of these cases.

 

Railway Inspectors have the right to retain evidence and report under the relevant legislation and it might help you to understand that in updating legislation following the introduction of the Police & Criminal Evidence Act (1984), there is at least one specific Act where a right to affect an arrest has been retained solely for Railway Inspectors too.

 

Police do not need to be involved at all in pursuing basic Byelaw & Fare evasion matters and in fact, the only time that Police are called to attend in normal circumstances is when there is a likelihood of a public order issue (as in your case) and they will normally ask the Inspector what it is that the inspector wants them to assist with.

 

If a traveller becomes excessively loud, abusive or threatening, staff may well call for assistance and if it is a clear case of assault or disorderly conduct witnessed by a Police officer, they may take it on, but will usually simply stand by to assist by keeping the peace whilst the Rail Staff deal with the alleged offender.

 

Rail tickets remain the property of the company at all times and if an inspector suspects something is amiss can withdraw the ticket at any time. So far as ticketing matters are concerned, it is the Rail Staff who have the specific training and that is why any report will be made by them and any follow up action, such as issue of a Summons will also be effected by the Rail Company not Police.

 

You state above 'I just do not see that, as a matter of law, the Inspectors had any right to do this'.

 

Unfortunately, that seems to be the root of the problem here. You see it differently to the way that the law is framed.

 

You are the person suggesting that the inspector attempted to 'impose a fine' when it appears to me from reading all your earlier postings that there is no factual evidence to back up such a claim.

 

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[Passenger]

Thanks for the further replies.

 

Old-CodJA & Wrigger, I certainly take your points that Rail Companies can investigate offences and bring their own prosecutions without involving the Police or CPS. I’m not sure if you had the opportunity to read my post above fully, but the point I was trying to make is that it is only the Court which can impose a fine or punishment for a breach of the Bye-Laws (whether the prosecution is brought by the Railway Company or by the CPS). In contrast, I do not believe that Ticket Inspectors have the power themselves to impose fines or punishments for a breach of the Byelaws. In my case, since there was no suggestion that the Inspectors were confiscating my ticket as evidence, it seemed to me that it was being confiscated as a punishment.

 

SRPO – you say that there is no law that a receipt must be given, but I think Condition 20 is fairly clear on this point. It states, “If you do not comply in a material way with any Condition that applies to the use of a ticket, staff or agents of any Train Company may withdraw the ticket and you will be given a receipt.” This is a contractual provision rather than a law, but equally the fact that “Tickets remain the property of the relevant Train Company” is also contractual provision (Condition 1).

 

You also suggest that Ticket Inspectors have a common law right to seize evidence. In the leading case on this issue, Ghani v. Jones, Lord Denning ruled that, “in order to justify the taking of an article, when no man has been arrested or charged … police officers must have reasonable grounds for believing that a serious offence has been committed - so serious that it is of the first importance that the offenders should be caught and brought to justice.” I think therefore it would be surprising if Ticket Inspectors investigating minor criminal offences had a right to seize evidence where no arrest or charge has been made. Whilst Inspectors may have rights of arrest and associated rights of seizure under certain statutes, I do not believe that there is any power of arrest or seizure for the breach of the Byelaws

 

(As an aside and although not directly relevant to Ticket Inspectors, Police have an obligation under s3 of PACE to make records of any search they carry out and to provide a copy to the person searched.)

[SRPO]

Passenger, 2 points for you, as I said there is no law that states a receipt must be given & also have a look at Cowan v the Commissioner of the Metropolis [2000] 1 WLR 254 for a more up to date ruling on common law power to seize evidence.

 

You also need to take into consideration that persons charged with the investigation of offences who are not police officers, are not bound by PACE in the same way as police officers.

[Stigy]

(As an aside and although not directly relevant to Ticket Inspectors, Police have an obligation under s3 of PACE to make records of any search they carry out and to provide a copy to the person searched.)

Sorry to but in here, but what does searching have to do with anything?

 

The ticket remains the property of the TOC, therefore pretty much any argument that suggests seizure is unlawful, would be blown out of the water. Police would be bound by different rules, and what they seize tends to actually belong to an individual in certain cases.

[nuggy3000]

Just by way of update:

 

I wrote a letter of complaint to FCC about this incident and, thanks to the advice on this forum, was able to cite the relevant parts of the Conditions of Carriage an the Railway Byelaws. Got a response from FCC in which they agreed that their staff should have given me a receipt and identified themselves. FCC have also agreed to refund me the cost of my return ticket.

 

It seems to me that some FCC staff don't know or choose to ignore the applicable rules.

 

Thanks again for the useful responses.

 

Hi passenger, I'm new to this forum and have found all the updates and advice given very helpful. I'm unfortunatley in a similar situation to you and have every sympathy. I notice you were quite hot on the confiscation of tickets (point 20 of CoC). What exact response did FCC give you in detail? I've had many (past) tickets confiscated from me upon inspection by a RPI and no receipt was issued. They were being 'withdrawn for investigation'. I'm hoping this omission in their duties will help my case and show they have breached this passenger commitment. Cheers

[Old-CodJA]

If an RPI or other revenue staff withhold any ticket for investigation, which they are perfectly entitled to do as they are the property of the rail company, and gives you what is known as a 'no charge excess ticket' to allow you to complete your journey without further difficulty pending the outcome of a report, they have effectively given you a 'receipt' for it.

 

That is what staff should do in almost all circumstances where a ticket is being withdrawn.

 

There is no 'law' broken if they do not do so, but it is the perfectly sensible recommended practice in virtually all cases and complies with the NRCOC.

[SRPO]

Hi passenger, I'm new to this forum and have found all the updates and advice given very helpful. I'm unfortunatley in a similar situation to you and have every sympathy. I notice you were quite hot on the confiscation of tickets (point 20 of CoC). What exact response did FCC give you in detail? I've had many (past) tickets confiscated from me upon inspection by a RPI and no receipt was issued. They were being 'withdrawn for investigation'. I'm hoping this omission in their duties will help my case and show they have breached this passenger commitment. Cheers

 

 

Why?

[Grotesque]

@Passenger:

 

S/He (Taki) presented a rebuttal of your case which some will find convincing.

 

And as your rebuttal of his rebuttal consisted of two lines...

 

You were 'done' (or rather not, wrongfully) for your behaviour on railway property, not for a ticket irregularity. So your OP was misleading to say the least.

And you will now do it again safe in the knowledge that you can abuse staff! Or hopefully not...

[nuggy3000]

Why?

 

No reason was given, just that they were being used in an investigation.