can i litigate against a training provider

[pop_gun]

i purchased a course a little while ago and complained about certain aspects of it (notably) senior instructor and a operator. because the course was taken with a public body i've taken it up with

the PHSO. i recently took out the same course with another company who stipulated 5 days training, but since i already had one component of the course, (which i was charged for) i only required practical training. the company gave myself and 2 other students less than 1 hour training and even then i hadn't been trained on all practical aspects of the course.

the 2 candidate with me in my class passed the course, but i failed. this despite them having no previous

experience. i took their names and numbers and i think they'll verify what took place.

 

the training was negligent, that's not in dispute. but i want to know if i could take this to court and be awarded punitive damages for discrimination on the grounds of the failed test at the public body.

the private company has to register with the public body in order for me to take the course.

 

would i have sufficient grounds to take this to court and be awarded damages?

[buzby]

It is a risk. Not everyone has the same work skills, and with different aptitudes and other life-skills it would be impossible to prove any training was negligent simply because you didn't pass. I doubt you would ever get damages, as the tester would state in his experience your work did not merit a pass - so how can you challenge that? If you are seeking a compromise, surely you would settle for whatever additional training that would result in a pass? With litigation, it is a risky and expensive business and the training school may have more monbey to throw in its defence, than you can in your pursuit.

[pop_gun]

has there been any successful cases made against a training provider?

 

to answer buzby's question. if i can catch the examiner, operator and the senior instructor out in a lie they were all party to,

wouldn't this call into question their "motivation"? the complaints department for the public body ignored a complaint i made whilst

on the course. don't they have a duty of care to respond to the complaint? isn't this a clear case of maladministration?

 

the course doesn't allow for additional training. there's no literature for the cost of resits or additional training.

[buzby]

This would not be 'proof' in the sense you believe - someone (other than you) would need to present this as evidence, or confirm they witnessed the actions you complain of as being linked. They could just as easily state that in their professional poi ion the standard was not reached, and as such your complaint is spurious. If there is an independent review body, go to them - but if there isn't, the risk will remain yours.

[pop_gun]

when you say independent review body, do you mean the PHSO? i've taken the case up with them. though from what i've

read and my current experience with the FOS, i don't expect much. if i were to get an eventual ruling from the PHSO

after several judicial reviews (will go to a county court to obtain JR) could this then be taken to court?

there are other candidates who have experienced what i did, as the operator boasted, the failures of these candidates.

i would like to establish discrimination on the grounds of company vs privately funded candidates (the public body gains if it fails

privately funded individuals and vice versa) and ethnicity (the boasts came with explicit details).

the problem lies in getting the information on course success and failure rates and indentifying which fall into the categories

i described.

[Yorky2008]

Pop Gun,

 

Just a thought but is there a minimum number of hours training that is specified should be given before examination? If so and they only gave you an hour then this could be a basis of inadequate training leading to you failing.

 

Yorky.

[buzby]

Not specifically, but whoever accredits them to do what try do, is about the only avenue that offers a reasonable chance of success!

[Yorky2008]

Not necessarily Buzby, I have undertaken courses in the past where there is a set number of hours (and syllabus) which must be followed. If the training provider didnt follow it - even if you passed the exminations (theory and practical) - there would be legal implication for them which could also include imprisonment!.

 

As we dont know what the OPs course was it is worth them confirming this is or isnt the case, if not then as you say it could be worth going via the accreditor.

 

Yorky.

[buzby]

Agreed Yorkie, but I'm assuming the firm has enough nous (especially if the make a habit of it). To ensure the hours are either correct, OR they are prepared to assert that the student did not complete the relevant modules through no failing of their own.

 

The issue will always be one of challenge, and if the hours are fine, only if they guaranteed a pass would there be a realistic stab at resolving the issue in court. When it boils down to the instructor charged with certifying a pass declines to do so - no court will rule against as the right to pass will be either subjective (by the examiner) or on course work and tests. It is THIS that you use to appeal to the overseeing body, and hopefully they take your side.

[pop_gun]

the course i took was a slinger\signaller course with the CITB. only 4 candidates per course.

the course entails reciting 65 answers (which are given to you) to 65 questions on an oral test.

the practical test involves using 8 hand signals to move different loads from point A to point B.

i once phoned a course provider and asked him about resit cost and he said i wouldn't need it as

no one fails the test. in fact the CITB doesn't have a resit clause in their course literature.

 

at present i only have the CITB on negligence to deal with a complaint i lodged while on the

course and a phone call made during the practical exam which i feel prejudiced the outcome.

i personally don't have a record of the call, but i'm in the process of writing my MP and request-

ing she obtain them and intercede on my behalf.

 

in an internal investigation lodged by the CITB (after the practical exam) and a second complaint.

they denied the crane operator had received a call, preferring to say that what i'd heard was more likely "interference". they also suggest that because no one else had a problem with the crane

operator, they felt on balance there wasn't a case to answer.

 

this last bit lends itself to the idea i had been discriminated against.

 

the phone call is important because not only would the 2 parties involved have to explain

why they made the call in the middle of an exam. they would also have to explain why it

was done while both were on site. less than a 5 minute walk from each other.

the examiner would have to explain why he neither saw or heard the

crane operator receive the call, nor put it in his notes

all this and the obvious health and safety aspect; namely distracting the crane operator.

 

as one poster has already mentioned, i would like further proof in the form of other

candidates. but without the course success and failure rates (would the .gov pages hold

this information?) i can't pursue this line of enquiry.

 

i hope this helps fill in the missing details

[buzby]

Ta for the update - the only thing you missed was the 'discrimination' angle - based on they didn't like you? Or race, creed and orientation?

[pop_gun]

my MP has got back to me and said she can't obtain the phone evidence for me. supposedly it's outside an MP's

remit. who is authorised to use the RIPA act and could it be done in the case i've presented?

i know the police and the councils have the authority, but do people such as a justice of the peace?

 

thanks in advance.

[buzby]

RIPA.?

 

That's a blind alley. You have a civil dispute, nothing more. If they won't provide under A SAR, that will be as far as you can go.

[pop_gun]

RIPA.?

 

That's a blind alley. You have a civil dispute, nothing more. If they won't provide under A SAR, that will be as far as you can go.

 

can a judge obtain the necessary information as it has a significant baring on the case?

 

i don't know whether a judge will do this. is it possible to get a court order for the information. obviously i can't request it for myself

but could i ask for it to be submitted directly to a judge?

[buzby]

Jusdes are NOT investigators. They can only provide a decision based on the facts PRESENTED to them. If you cannot provide this information (evidence), then it will not be used in the decision. It is the judge who will weigh up whether the statements, documents etc are true. The other party can challenge your productions in the same way you can challenge theirs.

 

You cannot expect to as a defender to provide you with information that could lead them to losing the case. The only hope is they provide it without realising the significance. There is no magic bullet - you really need to have a cast iron case before raising the action, without this - a speculative court action could lead to you losing, AND having to pay the other party's capped costs.

[pop_gun]

Jusdes are NOT investigators. They can only provide a decision based on the facts PRESENTED to them. If you cannot provide this information (evidence), then it will not be used in the decision. It is the judge who will weigh up whether the statements, documents etc are true. The other party can challenge your productions in the same way you can challenge theirs.

 

You cannot expect to as a defender to provide you with information that could lead them to losing the case. The only hope is they provide it without realising the significance. There is no magic bullet - you really need to have a cast iron case before raising the action, without this - a speculative court action could lead to you losing, AND having to pay the other party's capped costs.

 

i google the court process and through what is know as direction the judge can request the defendant produce the necessary documents.

the problem is, is in getting the judge to do exactly that.

[buzby]

This only works where there is a particular (defined) document that you know exists and cas ask the judge to force disclosure. It will not be an open season 'fishing trip' for anything and everything that will help your side of the case. If there is something you know exists, then the judge can seek its disclosure to the court, but if the defenders claim it never existed, or is no longer available, you are back at square one, unless the judge disbelieved them.

[pop_gun]

This only works where there is a particular (defined) document that you know exists and cas ask the judge to force disclosure. It will not be an open season 'fishing trip' for anything and everything that will help your side of the case. If there is something you know exists, then the judge can seek its disclosure to the court, but if the defenders claim it never existed, or is no longer available, you are back at square one, unless the judge disbelieved them.

 

the document exist. the other side have already mentioned it in a communication with myself. i know a judge wouldn't sanction a 'fishing expedition'

but i was hoping on the balance of evidence he may be enticed to do so. crazy i know. BTW the PHSO just phoned me and the

company has fobbed them off by saying the complaint was still with their standards department. the PHSO rep was only too happy

to oblige them and told me that i had to exhaust their complaints procedures before the PHSO could take up the case.

the thing is i told the rep that the compliant has been with their standards department for 4 months now

and there's been no correspondence between them and myself since then.

would you believe the PHSO rep said she hadn't asked them how long it would take to report a finding, or how long it's suppose to take!

she even said that there was no time constraint on the process. the PHSO are truly useless (but then most of us knew that already).

[pop_gun]

It is a risk. Not everyone has the same work skills, and with different aptitudes and other life-skills it would be impossible to prove any training was negligent simply because you didn't pass. I doubt you would ever get damages, as the tester would state in his experience your work did not merit a pass - so how can you challenge that? If you are seeking a compromise, surely you would settle for whatever additional training that would result in a pass? With litigation, it is a risky and expensive business and the training school may have more monbey to throw in its defence, than you can in your pursuit.

 

rereading this thread i'm starting to worry about this. from what i've already posted could i claim negligence or breach of contract leaving aside

everything else i've mentioned?

 

i believe one of the candidates on the course couldn't pass the theory test (even if he were asked to resit it).

would there be any way of proving this? the candidate (obviously) won't testify that he was fraudulently passed.

[buzby]

Only if you believe that all a trainer has to do is disclose the required syllabus to the student, and the resulting test asking questions should equal a pass.

 

I don't see this happening. A trainer may be accused of a sloppy evaluations, but if in all honesty they feel the student is not or has not reached the required level required to pass, attempting to turn this into a failing of the training company remains a long shot.

[pop_gun]

Only if you believe that all a trainer has to do is disclose the required syllabus to the student, and the resulting test asking questions should equal a pass.

 

I don't see this happening. A trainer may be accused of a sloppy evaluations, but if in all honesty they feel the student is not or has not reached the required level required to pass, attempting to turn this into a failing of the training company remains a long shot.

 

i'm not refering to the trainer but the examiner himself! the theory test is conducted in a classroom with only the examiner and

a single student present. there's no third party to corroborate what i'm claiming. in claiming discrimination i would have to prove

someone benefited where i hadn't.

the test isn't a written test either, it's an oral one. you speak out loud into a microphone. even on a car test you're allowed

your instructor to sit in on the test.

 

the second company i did this course with passed 2 candidates with 1 hour training, but failed me. neither of these

candidates had prior training. you could argue both were quick studies and passed on aptitude alone, but surely

theres a big discrepenacy in training times needed to pass the test between the public and private body.

i would argue if the test is so easy how can anyone fail it?

 

p.s. i'm reading through this http://ehrc-consult.limehouse.co.uk/portal/equality_bill/educ_provider?pointId=1265018502316#section-1265018502316

 

Instructing and causing discrimination

 

An education provider must not instruct, cause or induce someone to discriminate against, harass or victimise another person, or to attempt to do so.

Both the person who receives the instruction and the intended victim have a claim against whoever gave the instructions.

This applies whether or not the instruction is carried out, provided the recipient or intended victim suffers loss or harm as a result.

It only applies where the person giving the instruction is in a legal relationship with the person receiving the instruction such as employer and employee or agent and principal.

Employment Tribunals will deal with complaints from an employee or agent who has received the instructions and the victim can make a claim in the same way as they would for any other claim under the act. So if an education provider instructs a member of staff to discriminate against a student then the member of staff can make a claim to an Employment Tribunal and the student can make a claim to a county or sheriff court. Chapter 7 deals with education claims.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission can also take action for unlawful instructions to discriminate

 

 

this is what i'm hoping to prove with the phone call.

Edited December 17, 2010 by pop_gun

[pop_gun]

another problem exist in that i want to pass this course so i can find work

in this field. if i'am being discriminated against how can i ever hope to pass the course?

 

the senior instructor (whom i complained about) has links with the second company

i took the course with. in fact theres a CITB college a stone throw up the road

from the second company.

[buzby]

It is you argiung that anyone can pass it - but you didn't. If the discrimination you talk of is for race, creed, colour or orientation - you might have a stab at it, but if it is none of these, I honestly don't believe there is a realistic chance. Taking the exam elsewhere, passing, then complaining about the standards of the original examiner would be the only effective way forwad.

[pop_gun]

if you believe the events as i've posted them, then you can't suggest i take the exam elsewhere

(as i had done) and hope to pass. there were irregularies on the CITB practical test. the training

for the second company was deficient and their treatment of the candidates was woeful.

making us come in (£9 train ticket) leaving us in a classroom with no tutor for 3 hours then

(when confronted) telling us there wouldn't be any training that day. the second company

disputes the amount of training given, but when asked won't tell me how much training they

believe the candidates had.

 

the CITB won't give me the practical examiner's version of events. this should've been in the

internal report they conducted, but wasn't.

 

anyway the only thing i'm interested in is whether there's a mechanism (within the judicial system)

for me to have student X retake his theory test before a judge (remember it's a verbal test).

could he be produced as evidence?

Edited December 18, 2010 by pop_gun

[pop_gun]

an update for anyone in a similar situation. i've submitted a claim with the courts. The CITB at the time

of writing haven't submitted a defence and the date for that passed earlier this month. The CITB

has contacted me numerous times and has offered me a retest with the option of having an

'independent assessor' to oversee the test.

when i declined that offer they offered me the practical test fee back. i've declined this also.

they've stipulated these as gestures of goodwill and not an admission of liability or wrongdoing.

Edited January 30, 2011 by pop_gun