Charging Order help/ it's not my debt

[DonkeyB]

Given the amount in question, they would be unwise to go for bankruptcy – they are using it as a weapon, which a judge will look upon with disdain. It would cost them more to do this than they would ever get back!

[pac man]

Given the amount in question, they would be unwise to go for bankruptcy – they are using it as a weapon, which a judge will look upon with disdain. It would cost them more to do this than they would ever get back!

so I shouldnt phone them?

[DonkeyB]

Not sure – see what Mould thinks. I don’t think you should tell them you will be appealing the case, as that will put them on notice.

[pac man]

Thanks everyone for todays replys and advice , but it's like my brother keeps telling me " you No all of this from start to finish was wrong, we all do , but we couldnt get any body to represent the hearing so , how are we going to get anybody to help now ? he's waiting for someone from a local paper to ring him back.

[pac man]

Thanks everyone for todays replys and advice , but it's like my brother keeps telling me " you No all of this from start to finish was wrong, we all do , but we couldnt get any body to represent the hearing so , how are we going to get anybody to help now ? he's waiting for someone from a local paper to ring him back.

I have phoned Phs - saying my response is still the same I was an employee etc they said it was me who is responsable for the debt the ccj says it me etc etc , and i reply if you are not listening to me ,there is no point carrying on with this conversation. and put the phone down ...

[Docman]

Hi pacman

It does make me very angry that the justice system ends up trapping you into a debt that you clearly didn’t have a responsibility to pay in the first place because you haven’t used the correct form or application. Judges are supposed to take into account the lack of knowledge and legal training of someone like you who is called a ‘Litigant in Person’ [Lip] in the legal jargon. Unfortunately, many judges do not and rush the cases through their courts without due regard.

In my experience the judges who end to rush things are often ‘DEPUTY District Judges. These Deputies are often retired solicitors who sit as judges for only a few days a year and therefore lack experience of court work or they are specialists in particular areas of the law. Consumer debt like this isn’t one of those areas.

When the other side is represented by a smooth talking solicitor, the Deputy judge doesn’t want to show their own lack of knowledge before the solicitor. The result is when a LiP gets before such a Deputy, the LiP looses out, regardless of the law. What is often termed on this site as the ‘Judge Lottery’.

OK, end of my gripe. What are we going to do now?

1. Don’t respond to the letter from phs. They are just trying it on. They already have a judgment against you and a charging order against you. If they went for bankruptcy, it would cost them £800 up front plus they would have to give up the security of the charging order.

2. If you are up for it, you could use the existence of the pHs letter as an excuse to make a further application to sort this all out. You need to apply to the court on a form N244 asking for the court to

a) Set aside its Order in February 2010

b) Vacate the Final Charging Order on your house; and

c) Set aside the original default judgment

3. You will need to support your application with a witness statement explaining you side of things and producing you ‘evidence’ such as the Companies House information about Daletrax Ltd and your own P60s. I know that you took your documents to court and explained everything as best you could, but because what you ssaid wasn’t in writing, the judge has chosen to ignore it. He was wrong to do so, but we must move on from that.

There will be plenty of help from posters on this site to help you with these stages, so don’t worry. However, an application like this will cost you £75 in court fees unless you are on benefits or low income.

One point of clarification. I noticed that the original judgment and the charging order were made in Neath in south Wales but the last hearing was in your local court. How and when was the case transferred to your local court?

[Old Cogger]

Keep going and the justice system in this country turns to corruption, report the judge to the necessary law courts as a complaint requesting investigation of case?

[debbbbsy]

debs,

 

with respect, you are just confusing the issue. There is no point in chasing the previous owner/employer, whose last address in any case, will be on the Daletrax Ltd record at Companies House. All that pacman needs to show is status as an employee and therefore NOT the owner of the business (who is correct person responsible for the debt.) The P60, as a government issued document, will prove employee status.

 

I'm not.

I've checked companies house, Daletrax LTD has nothing to do with her boss.

Unfortunately the agreement that Pacman signed, does make her responsible for this account with PHS. She agreed to be liable.( Wrong.......I agree).

She went to court last time with the P60, and got knowhere.

It is her bosses fault that she is in this mess. He recieved the goods & failed to pay for them. When he recieved the court docs atb the business address, he clearly failed to do anything about it.Incuding telling her.

The problem we have, although the company traded as Tumble Jungle, it was not registered in that name. The P60's state Mr & Mrs XXXXX paid Pacman, which makes me think it was not a Ltd company. If Pacman can get anything which connects these people to the business (ie the lease) it will only enforce her defence. Also, if the leaseholder instigated legal proceedings against them to recover rent arrears(after they had been evicted), it wouldn't have been sent to the business address. Not only will they have an address but will be able to confirm the company trading name & status.

[pac man]

Hi pacman

 

It does make me very angry that the justice system ends up trapping you into a debt that you clearly didn’t have a responsibility to pay in the first place because you haven’t used the correct form or application. Judges are supposed to take into account the lack of knowledge and legal training of someone like you who is called a ‘Litigant in Person’ [Lip] in the legal jargon. Unfortunately, many judges do not and rush the cases through their courts without due regard.

 

In my experience the judges who end to rush things are often ‘DEPUTY District Judges. These Deputies are often retired solicitors who sit as judges for only a few days a year and therefore lack experience of court work or they are specialists in particular areas of the law. Consumer debt like this isn’t one of those areas.

 

When the other side is represented by a smooth talking solicitor, the Deputy judge doesn’t want to show their own lack of knowledge before the solicitor. The result is when a LiP gets before such a Deputy, the LiP looses out, regardless of the law. What is often termed on this site as the ‘Judge Lottery’.

 

OK, end of my gripe. What are we going to do now?

 

1. Don’t respond to the letter from phs. They are just trying it on. They already have a judgment against you and a charging order against you. If they went for bankruptcy, it would cost them £800 up front plus they would have to give up the security of the charging order.

2. If you are up for it, you could use the existence of the pHs letter as an excuse to make a further application to sort this all out. You need to apply to the court on a form N244 asking for the court to

a) Set aside its Order in February 2010

b) Vacate the Final Charging Order on your house; and

c) Set aside the original default judgment

3. You will need to support your application with a witness statement explaining you side of things and producing you ‘evidence’ such as the Companies House information about Daletrax Ltd and your own P60s. I know that you took your documents to court and explained everything as best you could, but because what you ssaid wasn’t in writing, the judge has chosen to ignore it. He was wrong to do so, but we must move on from that.

 

There will be plenty of help from posters on this site to help you with these stages, so don’t worry. However, an application like this will cost you £75 in court fees unless you are on benefits or low income.

 

One point of clarification. I noticed that the original judgment and the charging order were made in Neath in south Wales but the last hearing was in your local court. How and when was the case transferred to your local court?

Hi , Thank you for your reply, for a moment there i thought I saw a little bit of light at the end of my tunnel, until your last question , I had the case transferred to my local courts in January 2010 , As my brother had a rang the courts in Neath on advise on what to do . I was Transferred to Bolton Crown court and this was my hearing to Set A Side. Ive attached the application, My brother and I thought that once at court with my Paperwork , I could Show the Judge the info, But he would not let me get past " why it had taken so long" Reason , I didnt know about it at first , then the death of my mother, My partners cancer, Depression , and I was also fighting an employment case as my partner's Boss thought he didnt have to Pay SSP if he didnt want , I also had my own financial problems .

When I did find out about ithe claim , I spoke to my boss and asked him to sort it out , I thought he would , I had No Reason to think he wouldnt. When I realised he hadnt , I sent a Acknowledgement Of Service form , and a letter explaining The whole Mess to the court in Neath , This was just before the final charging order Hearing.

 

So What I'm Asking is, as Ive already had a hearing to Set A Side , which was Dismissed , I Dont think they will let me do this again , Will They ? I Know I had so many days to Appeal, But again after visting Solicitors , being told There's nothing you Can do Again or Pay the debt, I just gave up.

4 Feb Notice of Application to set aside.pdf

N244.pdf

N244b.pdf

PHS Reson Why I shoulnt Set Aside a..pdf

20 Jul 2009 3 Documents.pdf

[pac man]

I'm not.

I've checked companies house, Daletrax LTD has nothing to do with her boss.

Unfortunately the agreement that Pacman signed, does make her responsible for this account with PHS. She agreed to be liable.( Wrong.......I agree).

She went to court last time with the P60, and got knowhere.

It is her bosses fault that she is in this mess. He recieved the goods & failed to pay for them. When he recieved the court docs atb the business address, he clearly failed to do anything about it.Incuding telling her.

The problem we have, although the company traded as Tumble Jungle, it was not registered in that name. The P60's state Mr & Mrs XXXXX paid Pacman, which makes me think it was not a Ltd company. If Pacman can get anything which connects these people to the business (ie the lease) it will only enforce her defence. Also, if the leaseholder instigated legal proceedings against them to recover rent arrears(after they had been evicted), it wouldn't have been sent to the business address. Not only will they have an address but will be able to confirm the company trading name & status.

Daletrax Ltd was owned by my old boss . Companies House Documents Confirm my old Employer as the Director , Now From what I can gather In May 2007 , when I signed the Hire form from PHS , he was either Tumble Jungle , Fairplay & Tumble Jungle or J**** M**** T/A Tumble jungle , all Non LTD companies , But Definatley All his company names - I learned this since, Tumble Jungle was his first name used Established in 1995 , but for 2007 I dont Know , I can afford to keep doing the searches . I did another yesterday on Tumble Jungle and the address at Registry Trust and this time there was No High court Judgement at this Address , and I'm positive I put the exact Same details as last in , when the ccj was showing? I will Attach it , but notice the allenbridge bit that keeps appearing ( I did not put this in on the Search ) also mention when I press " find Address" Temple Secretaries, I Dont know How they are Connected ?, But they are.

455535.pdf

[Docman]

debs

 

The fact that pacman signed the agreement with phs does NOT mean she is liable for the debt. The liability rests with the owner of the business. As there is no limited company involved in 2007, the owner of the business is either going to be pacman as a sole trader ie 'pacman T/as Tumple Jungle' (this is the claim of phs) OR ithe owner is the partnership of 'Mr & Mrs #### T/as Tumple Jungle'. A person cannot be both a partner (ie the owner) of a business AND an employee of that business. If pacman can show an employee status by producing the P60, that pacman cannot be the owner and thus not liable for the debt.

[pac man]

debs

 

The fact that pacman signed the agreement with phs does NOT mean she is liable for the debt. The liability rests with the owner of the business. As there is no limited company involved in 2007, the owner of the business is either going to be pacman as a sole trader ie 'pacman T/as Tumple Jungle' (this is the claim of phs) OR ithe owner is the partnership of 'Mr & Mrs #### T/as Tumple Jungle'. A person cannot be both a partner (ie the owner) of a business AND an employee of that business. If pacman can show an employee status by producing the P60, that pacman cannot be the owner and thus not liable for the debt.

 

I can Produce this evidence, Now it's where to go with this evidence ?, PHS Don't care that I have it , they have made that clear, I tried the court Hearing to Set A Side , So where do I go Now ? Sorry If I dont sound Appreciative, It's just making me so Down.

 

Thank you.

[debbbbsy]

debs

 

The fact that pacman signed the agreement with phs does NOT mean she is liable for the debt. The liability rests with the owner of the business. As there is no limited company involved in 2007, the owner of the business is either going to be pacman as a sole trader ie 'pacman T/as Tumple Jungle' (this is the claim of phs) OR ithe owner is the partnership of 'Mr & Mrs #### T/as Tumple Jungle'. A person cannot be both a partner (ie the owner) of a business AND an employee of that business. If pacman can show an employee status by producing the P60, that pacman cannot be the owner and thus not liable for the debt.

 

I completely agree. But PHS have an agreement signed by PAC MAN, in which she accepts liabilty for these goods. It states Pacman T/a Tumble Jungle, which is wrong...but she signed it. She has already gone to court with a P60 proving she was an employee, but the judge refused to even consider this because she had taken too long too apply the set a side.

I am suggesting attacking

1. PHS. Making a complaint to trading standards. The salesperson making her liable for a business she was not a director of.

2. Going after her boss personally, who would have recieved the invoices & the court docs & did nothing about it. He failed to inform PHS that she was an employee.

 

What do you suggest Docman ?

[pac man]

Well not heard anything about this debt for awhile - until a couple of days ago, my brother rang me to say a letter had arrived at his address for me - to pacman T/A Tumble Jungle.

 

it was a Notice Of Issue of Warrant of Execution giving me until 6th of June to pay 842.79 , Not a Chance !

 

I know this is an oldish thread , but it is still going on , still making my life a Misery!

 

Solicitors say its cheaper to pay debt - Citizens advice say there is nothing I can do But AN EMPLOYEE DOES'NT PAY HER FORMER BOSS DEBT - A BUSINESS DEBT FOR A BUSINESS I HAVE NEVER OWNED- SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP ME,HELP ME MAKE THE COuRTS LISTEN!

 

PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited June 2, 2013 by slick132
corrected to pacman T/A Tumble Jungle

[slick132]

Hi Pacman,

 

I corrected your post above as you'd not put the name correctly at the end of the first paragraph. I also added more paras to make the post more legible.

 

Can you confirm who and where this latest doc't came from.

[pac man]

Hi Pacman,

 

I corrected your post above as you'd not put the name correctly at the end of the first paragraph. I also added more paras to make the post more legible.

 

Can you confirm who and where this latest doc't came from.

 

Hi & Thank you,

 

sorry about my English, Punctuation I'm hopeless when it comes to things like this.

 

It says Bolton county court, Me named as the defendant, and PHS Group plc the claimant. it arrived in the post on Friday morning,

at my Brothers home address, Giving me until the 6th June to pay 842.79, If not the bailiff's will call and may remove goods for sale at public auction, and this may mean that i will have to pay further costs .

 

 

this is from a search I did a while back as you can see , it has the debt listed & the case number and the owner, but PHS can decide that they want to chase me, an employee for Tumble Jungles Debt. How can they get away with it?

[ATTACH]44285[/ATTACH]

Edited June 2, 2013 by pac man
adding information

[blueboy987]

Looking at the original agreement, it seems to be in your personal name, page 2 states you as the hirer. I know you said the agreement was altered, but unless you're claiming this was to put your name at the top of page 2 and to insert "your name t/a" at the bottom of page 3 and 4 then I don't see how this helps you. I'm not sure the legal route will work as it all comes down to the agreement.

 

I'd try appealing to someone higher up the food chain at PHS. I'd guess the people you have spoken with are in the accounts / bad debt department who are just doing their job. If you can get your grievance to the corporate / PR team then they might be willing to listen. Or maybe even try your MP, a letter from them to PHS might work wonders.

 

You also want to give some thought to the effect having this hanging over you is having. I appreciate how annoying and frustrating it is being chased to pay a debt you don't owe but sometimes you have to take the hit, move on and put it behind you.

[pac man]

Thanks for your comments

 

1> I did not right my name T/A Tumble Jungles I have never signed anything as that and never would, also it is not my writing. I did sign my name P A C****.

2>I cannot And Should not have to take a hit with some one else debt. I have my own financial difficulties to sort out, and bills to pay, a child to provide for and certainly do not have that amount to pay - I live month to month have no savings never mind just give someone £849 for nothing. Can you imagine someone knocking on your door for joe bloggs debt, threatening to take your belongings if you do not pay ? its not right morally and how the hell is it legally

right

 

Sorry if i seem a little niffed, but if the shoe was on the other foot i'm sure you would be too.

 

Im am telling the truth i was your average Joe employee, I ve never had my own business and never claimed to have. I have given PHS my Ex bosses contact details - and they wont do anything about it.

Edited June 2, 2013 by pac man
adding information

[steampowered]

Hi Pacman

 

I have had a read through the thread and I understand that the following events happened: (1) CCJ granted against you in February 2008, (2) you applied to set it aside in February 2010 and this was denied, (3) at some point a charging order was granted (I guess against your house). I have not read the attachments.

 

Unfortunately I do not think there is anything you can do to get of this. The court system is set up to resolve disputes. The court ordered that you must pay the debt. When someone has a court order against you, that means you owe money regardless of the underlying circumstances. It is now pointless to contest liability because (1) you already applied to set aside the judgment and this was denied, and (2) you are much too late to ask for a set aside or appeal. In short, you owe this company money and I do not see anything you can do to change that.

 

The best thing you can do would be to ask your former employer to pay the debt. They should be liable to reimburse you. Have you managed to track them down and are they still trading? One option would be to pay the creditor and then ask the employer to reimburse you (suing them in county court if necessary).

 

For the avoidance of doubt, PHS are under no obligation to pursue your former boss instead of you. They have a judgment against you which means they are entitled to pursue you directly. It is now your responsibility to seek reimbursement from the employer for that liability.

 

If you refuse to pay, the creditor will be able to enforce this just like any other CCJ. I imagine it is registered on your credit file. It sounds like they are using High Court Enforcement Officers (aka bailiffs), though I guess this would only work if they know your current address (since the bailiffs cannot seize your brother's property, they can only seize your property).

 

If the bailiffs do not have your current address I guess your could simply ignore them and let them come find you. The problem with this if that you will be liable for yet more fees and costs if they do eventually find you. One way of avoiding this would be to try and negotiate a repayment plan with PHS (and apply to court to order monthly repayments on form N245 if your offer is refused)... let us know if this is something you want to do and need help with.

 

I'm slightly surprised they are using bailiffs because it sounds like they already have a charging order against your property? If so they will be paid when the property is sold.

 

I am sorry to put it bluntly, it is a difficult situation and I have a lot of sympathy for you. But I do not see any point in sugar coating the advice: I would like to tell you there is a way to make this go all the way, but the fact is you have a court judgment against you and PHS are entitled to pursue you for the money. It is now too late to claim that you should not be liable because you were only an employee because the court has already made its decision, and at this stage I do not think there is any realistic possibility of having that decision set aside or appealing it.

[blueboy987]

Thanks for your comments

 

1> I did not right my name T/A Tumble Jungles I have never signed anything as that and never would, also it is not my writing. I did sign my name P A C****.

2>I cannot And Should not have to take a hit with some one else debt. I have my own financial difficulties to sort out, and bills to pay, a child to provide for and certainly do not have that amount to pay - I live month to month have no savings never mind just give someone £849 for nothing. Can you imagine someone knocking on your door for joe bloggs debt, threatening to take your belongings if you do not pay ? its not right morally and how the hell is it legally

right

 

Sorry if i seem a little niffed, but if the shoe was on the other foot i'm sure you would be too.

 

Im am telling the truth i was your average Joe employee, I ve never had my own business and never claimed to have. I have given PHS my Ex bosses contact details - and they wont do anything about it.

 

I've been in similar positions before. Recently I've had bailiffs knocking on my door trying to collect a debt I didn't owe and going back a few years I got in a really bad position by not dealing with debts in a timely manner - having to pay a lot of additional money to sort it out, a large chuck of which I still feel was dubious at best. But having it inside my head all the time was doing even more damage, so I took some hits and came out the other side in a far better place.

 

What ever you do, you really need to sort this out once and for all. Otherwise it will get a lot worse, the debt will increase and the problem will get bigger.

[pac man]

Thank you for comments

 

Firstly Yes there is a charging order on my home already, I have the paperwork from the land registry.

PHS do have my Address and know that my brothers address was just a Care of address for the letters-he was making sure the situation got dealt with, so why they have made an application for a warrant to his address is beyond me ?

 

I signed the original agreement P A C***** T/A P A C***** was added later and is not my writing and to be honest I had no Idea that i was signing a credit agreement - I know this is very stupid off me , but I had Chemotherapy on mind and hospital appointments , Cancer , My own bills etc, I ve signed for orders before, deliveries and never been liable for thoose debts and as the rep spoke to the employer face to face an knew i was an employee- I thought nothing of it.

 

Anyway Today I went to the court bailiff's office ,and was told there was no one there with legal experience apart from the Judges, and that i needed to get legal advise ( Even though I have Tried) So off I go to Solicitors, no luck with the first one, but the next one, slightly better. After being in his office for over an hour (with no charge I might add!).

 

He will have to speak with the main solicitor off the firm,to see if he can do this case for very little of a fee, but he does think that this is worth looking at, and the set aside judge was a real B**** with me.

 

he feels the only route's we can take, is to sue my former boss, me paying the debt first and the trying to re-coop the money, but I haven't the funds to do this and he agrees it unlikely my boss will pay, and if they can track him down.

 

or to get the Original agreement nullified, therefore cancelling all after it.? The solicitor will ring me Wednesday to let me know if he can take the case on ? I hope and pray he can, a Last it feels like someone is hearing me, and can speak the legal jargon the judge wants.

 

All I've wanted to say all along is ( I think this is right)

 

I can show the debt was not mine, and a travesty of justice has Occurred - i.e A judgement was made against someone, who was not liable for whats owed, and as a result the Outcome would of been Different!

if anyone has any more ideas, I would be Grateful.

 

Thankyou

Edited June 4, 2013 by pac man

[steampowered]

OK good luck. I think your solicitor is right ... you need to try and track down your former boss if at all possible. Make sure you have tried everything you can such as google searches, facebook and perhaps look into things like checking the electoral roll.

[pac man]

Well Hello Again!! - Never heard of that Solicitor - should of known really:(

 

its now 2014

Charging order still on house ,

but all has been quiet for a while ,

 

That is till Monday , Just passed.

 

and what a lovely surprise

 

Visit from the County Courts Bailiff , with a warrant to remove Goods.

 

I was at work when she called, and my son answered the Door

- She asked were i was ,

and for a contact number,

 

son gave her a made up one!,

she handed him the warrant in an envelope,

Then Left.

 

I'm happy to say that when i came home , I phoned her up ,

after a few mins of her saying I'm going to have to pay something,

we've been here before (it's not my debt) and there's nothing she can do,

 

She then agreed to send me another N244 form, ( I was surprised)

 

it arrived in the post on Wednesday, to my horror got to be filled in and returned by Monday the 10/02!.

 

Got to do this right this time,

 

Can any body help with filling in the form

- in what way should write?

for what order am i asking the court to make and why?

 

this has got to be right,

my last chance to clear my name probably

- the judge wouldn't let me show all my paper work last time ,

 

so how the the heck do i present this case

 

if that's how you say it?

 

so he will let me speak and show my evidence?

 

Thanks

- I know this has Dragged on,

but thank you and would be great it any one can help.

[stu007]

Hi pac man

 

Please be patient as its the weekend I know this is urgent and will see if I can raise some help for you

[steampowered]

Hi pac man

 

I think it is important to take a long view here. As per the documents you posted, you issued a set aside application in December 2009 which was then rejected. The document is difficult to read but it seems the judge felt the application was not made promptly (which is a requirement).

 

While we can help you fill in the form you should know that, realistically, the chances of getting the CCJ set aside now in 2013 on a second set aside application are not good. My personal view is that paying the court fee to file this and attending court is most likely throwing good money after bad. I know it is not what you or anyone else wants to hear and must be incredibly frustrating but I think you are better off trying to agree a payment plan with the creditor.

 

Did you ever track down the employer?

 

Remind me of the amount we are talking about?