Caught using my friends season ticket - Please help - sounds usual but...

[RPI]

the ones who pay upfront to stay of the radar still get their details taken by me! before deciding whether to issue a PF I will take the details in my pocket book first as to whether to issue a PF or report for a byelaw, that way you have the details and fill the notice out first.

[Wriggler7]

And the guy who says 'I earn more than you do' to an Inspector has forgotten that the inspector holds discretion about how the matter can proceed.

 

When caught with your hand in the sweet jar, don't annoy the shopkeeper!

[Old-CodJA]

I've found that the suited & booted city types more often than not have a valid rail ticket, but when they do diliberately evade their fares they pay £20 or so outright, thus staying off the radar and not being logged as being persistant with IRCAS or similar, as their details arn't taken.

 

Yes Stigy, you are right that the majority of passengers (around 96% of all types) hold valid tickets, but of those who are found without, the 'suited & booted' fraternity do make up a higher proportion of the aggressively argumentative types in my experience of over 30 years and that is borne out by our surveys of revenue staff reports too.

 

The rules relating to Penalty Fares were changed to recognise the persistent fare evader who attempts to pay the penalty fare to avoid further action.

 

It is always permissible to take full details BEFORE issuing a penalty fare notice and staff should always do so for very good reason

 

If the details given prove to be false, then the inspector should not issue any penalty notice to the correct details that are ascertained after checking, but should report the attempted fare evasion by the traveller having given false details. This is a much more serious matter.

 

This gives grounds for two charges,

 

1. The intention to avoid a fare contrary to Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889)

2. Providing false details when asked for a name and address by an officer of the railway contrary to Section 5.3.c of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889)

 

2 is supplemental to 1 and this is considered so serious as to give a Court the authority to impose a custodial sentence.

 

Of course, with the prisons already overloaded, this is only ever used for serious and persistent offenders, but it does normally result in a much bigger fine on conviction and we are seeing community service orders being used more frequently when the defendant is in default.

 

 

.

[RPI]

The other reason i'll take details first is so that when phoning RPSS I will ask if there is any "previous" if so then I won't issue a PF but report for the byelaw or possibly 5.3.a. Only get one chance with me!

[Stigy]

Of course I can't do PFs anyway, so that would be a referal for me to an PRA/I if in my opinion an MG11 wasn't approriate for whatever reason. I see your points though, although unfortunately most RPA/Is I have seen rarely take details if the punter waves £20 in their faces.

[Old-CodJA]

I agree with you and obviously this isn't the place for an 'RPI teach-in', but good RP managers should be reminding staff to do exactly that.

 

Then, when you've seen the same traveller pulling the £20 out again to pay a PF you can safely say, "No, I'm not taking it today, I have warned you on X occasions in the past, I have the record of these incidents in my pocket book so I shall report your persistent travel without a ticket to the rail company and they will write to you about it"

 

The clued up prosecutor can then proceed to action, because where there is evidence to prove 'system' of an attempt at regular fare evasion using the same method, that evidence may be given to a Court even though only one charge may have been laid'

Makin (1894) - R v Armstrong (1922)

Edited October 1, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[km111]

@moral,

 

I have a similar situation to yours but I dont think I would just plea guilty now...I am trying to settle out of court. But I dont know how I would persuade them...

 

Did you not try to settle out of court with them? I mean you know that if you plead guilty then you will have a criminal record for at least 5 years? and it will jeopardise your future career (employer will ask if you have criminal conviction in which case you have to declare - it is an offence of dishonesty)? It will also harm your visa to the US...

 

Have you ever encountered a problem looking for a permanent job in the UK?

 

Very worried,

KM111

[km111]

SRPO is right, City of London Magistrates are tough on offenders.

 

Now, as you do not deny using your friends Oyster card, my suggestion will be that you should fill in the plea form, entering a 'Guilty' plea, but that you should also attend Court on the day and say sorry.

 

You could choose to plead not guilty, but from what you have told us, it is almost certain that you would be convicted and you would be hit with a much bigger fine if you are found guilty but denied the charge when asked.

 

If you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity, you will be given full credit for that and although the Court will be duty bound to impose a penalty, it will be substantially reduced because you acknowledge that you did wrong.

 

Yes, it is absolutely essential that you fill in the means form truthfully. If you do not declare your earnings and the Court find out later you can be in further trouble.

 

If you plead guilty and acknowledge the authority of the Court by attending and say 'sorry' in front of the Magistrates, then you will get the maximum credit and therefiore the maximum reduction in fine etc.

 

You will have to pay whatever fine the Magistrates decide. You may also be ordered to pay all or a part of the costs claimed by London Underground and compensation of the fare that you didn't pay. You will also have to pay a 'Victim Surcharge' of £15 added to the total of the other awards.

 

If you attend Court and explain your circimstances, you will be allowed to pay this money by instalments and the Court will tell you how you can make the payments.

 

In my experience, if you are polite and apologetic, I expect you will have to pay a total of somewhere between £250 and £350

 

That will be made up of the fine, which could start at £350 (the maximum is £1000) but if you plead guilty is more likely to be between £75 and £150, then add the maximum costs of £120 plus the £15 surcharge.

 

 

Hi Old-CodJA，

 

Having read your suggestions I was wondering whether it is possible to settle out of court for this type of "fare evasion"? If so, how to persuade the prosecutor to drop the case? I think if sound very apologetic and polite, and provide a reasonable reason of this record jeopardising one's future career might lead to the case being dropped instead of pleading guilty?

 

I would be grateful if you could provide any information and help.

 

Thanks,

km111

[Wriggler7]

There are no 'golden rules' to getting a case settled 'out of court'. Sometimes, the prosecution will be very deaf. However:

 

Admit that you are severely embarrassed by the lapse of your normally impeccable ticket buying behaviour (Unless they know different).

 

At the first opportunity, agree that you will pay reasonable costs and the fare that they calculate to have been avoided.

 

Apologise for wasting the Inspector's time.

 

None of this will help if you really did waste the Inspector's time by lying or being abusive, nor if you have a long history of dodgy tickets, even if they cannot 'prove' previous offences.

 

I have said it before, and no doubt will do so again. The only way to avoid prosecution is to always have a valid ticket for the journey being made.

[km111]

There are no 'golden rules' to getting a case settled 'out of court'. Sometimes, the prosecution will be very deaf. However:

 

Admit that you are severely embarrassed by the lapse of your normally impeccable ticket buying behaviour (Unless they know different).

 

At the first opportunity, agree that you will pay reasonable costs and the fare that they calculate to have been avoided.

 

Apologise for wasting the Inspector's time.

 

None of this will help if you really did waste the Inspector's time by lying or being abusive, nor if you have a long history of dodgy tickets, even if they cannot 'prove' previous offences.

 

I have said it before, and no doubt will do so again. The only way to avoid prosecution is to always have a valid ticket for the journey being made.

 

Hi Wriggler7,

 

Thanks for your prompt responce and I definitely agree with your last statement!

 

I really wish to settle out of court because I was told that if getting a crominal conviction then it is serious offence of dishonesty that no decent employers want to hire. And indeed I felt ashamed as it is my first offence and that I did have a normal oyster card with me that have enough amount to cover one single journey (zone 1-2). However the inspector seems to believe that I "intend" to use my friend's card and therefore a regular fare dodger...and had not offered penalty fare whatsoever. I had a very clean and good history of regular top-ups using my normal oyster card.

 

I tried to call and ask the prosecution manager to settle however he asks me to put it in writing together with "mitigating circumstances" in evidence. But I am afraid if for example it is found out by my university then I would risk having my degree withdrawn??? How I can get evidence that if I were to be convicted then my career will be seriously jeopardised ( i know it is a common sense but they ask for 'evidence' in wiritng & by post...cant they just speed up a bit given the hearing date is soon?)? Does anyone have his email address?

 

I am considering hiring a solicitor as I really do not wish to get such record by an one-off, but not sure if it will be better or not for me...and I just graduated without a lot of money.

 

Lastly (sorry I know I asked a lot of questions...), shall I plea guilty or not guilty if cannot settle out of court?

 

Many thanks,

km111

[Wriggler7]

I don't think that a university would withdraw a degree, there are more than a few degrees obtained by folk whilst in prison.

 

Plead guilty or not guilty? I would not answer that question without seeing all of the evidence. Answers on that sort of question should be provided by a professional, who will charge you a fee, but will have insurance against any percieved 'bad advice.' Many high street solicitors will give a short consultation for a reduced fee.

[bob55]

You should not have done this..

[mindway]

@moral

 

what was the outcome of your case? did they give you criminal record or just fine?

[honeybee13]

@moral

 

what was the outcome of your case? did they give you criminal record or just fine?

 

Hello there and welcome to CAG.

 

The OP hasn't been here since June last year, so it's hard to say whether you'll have an answer or not. If you have specific questions, you could start your own thread here.

 

My best, HB

[moral]

no record, only fine of 250pounds, it was hard time, ended ok, all the best

[BazzaS]

no record, only fine of 250pounds, it was hard time, ended ok, all the best

 

If this was a civil penalty of £250 agreed by the TOC as an alternative to court action, then you won't have a criminal record.

 

If this was instead a £250 FINE, issued by a court for a criminal offence, then you WOULD have a criminal record.

You previously mentioned you were summonsed under S.5(3)(a) of the regulation of railway act 1889as amended by section 84 (2) of the transport act 1962and section 18 of the British railways act 1970.

 

Did the summons get withdraw and the civil penalty substituted, or was it the magistrates court that issued the £250 fine?.