GE Woodchester Car Finance loan to Link Outsourcing

[alanalana]

Hello Beachy,

 

A couple of observations for you to ponder,

 

Well finally got the scanner working, so am able to update with cca, I am of the opinion that they have altered the cca after I initially returned the cca after signing.

 

Scan 1 is the cca that I received after taking out the loan, this agreement was signed (seperate page that I have not scanned up as there is no relevent details on it apart from theirs and my signature and no mention of ppi at all). The PPI missing will be covered by the box Credit Protection Insurance at £41.91 per month. If the page you have not scanned has only signature boxes but no details of the actual cost of insurance this may enable you to raise a case but not being a banana on Credit Agreements I would seek additional advice.

 

Scan 2 is what they have supplied following my CCA request, you will notice that in the Financial Details someone has written N/A, this was done AFTER document was returned to them. I believe the N/A is due to the fact scan 2 which is your copy sent after CCA request is IMO a copy of the Scan 1 document with N/A added but I cannot explain why the N/A would have been added. Looking at the position of the ticka in the credit protection insurance box I believe your scan 2 is a duplicate of scan 1 but the only change is the addition of the N/A across the financial details.

Scan 3 is Statement of account, you will see that the financial details has grown by nearly two grand from the original document. Yes I see that as they have ommitted to include the interest on the actual CCA. As I understand it the CCA must include all the required prescribed terms. Loan amount length of loan etc I am not sure whether the Cost of Insurance should be included on the CCA, you will need to pose another question on your thread. However if the CCA has to include the Insurance then IMO you CCA is flawed.

 

 

Any thoughts on these documents would be welcomed, 1) does this improve my chances of reclaimimh PPI, 2) because they have altered the CCA after being returned at the start of the loan (and has only just come to my attention following my cca request) does this invalidate the agreement due to altering the document without informing me.

 

They have terminated the PPI because Iam on a DMP, have charged £108 to the account for administration.

 

 

Scan 1

 

 

 

 

Scan 2

 

 

 

 

Scan 3

 

 

 

 

Thanks for looking

 

Beachy

 

Not sure if this helps or hinders at least it is food for thought and more research.

 

aa

Edited December 11, 2008 by alanalana
text amended

[beachcomber60]

Evening AA,

 

Yes you are correct scan 1 & scan 2 is indeed the same document, apart from the fact that someone has (for some reason added the N/A in the box), surely if this was necessary then I should have been informed at the time.

 

Strange it should only come to light following a CCA request?

 

I have posted the other document, it was signed by both parties.

 

[alanalana]

Hello beachy,

 

If the CCA was signed by both parties then I believe legally it is binding. However if the CCA is flawed by not having the full prescribed terms as detailed in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (ie bits missing Interest Cost in your case which only comes to light after a CCA request when you receive a statement then I believe the CCA would be flawed because the full information on the loan has not been presented to you on the CCA. Namely it was not telling you there was another £1.969.77 to pay over and above what was shown on both copies of the CCA. You were being charged nearly £2k and it was not mentioned on either copy of the CCA you now have. I maintain IMO that this could be a major Mistake on behalf of GE. I would though still seek more advice from the more knowledgeable legal minds on CAG.

 

aa

[beachcomber60]

Bumping for site team.

 

Think I've found sumfin naughty following my cca request

[pt2537]

uh oh, its a multiple agreement, s18CCA 1974

 

but what's that i see no amount of credit for the Insurance policy or any information on the cash price of the policy?

 

well i think they be royally shafted

[pt2537]

the statement is a red herring

 

it must state the financial particulars within the agreement not on seperate pieces of paper

 

the true cost of credit must be made clear to the borrower when they enter credit. the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is a consumer protection act which was enacted to protect you not the lender

 

that agreement is undoubtedly improperly executed , what is the date of the agreement? when was it signed by you?

 

as for liability, the PPI could be a blessing in disguise mate as it could be the straw that breaks the camels back so to speak

[beachcomber60]

Thanks PT, yes it was signed by me December 2004

 

Beachy

[pt2537]

ok, down to the breaches of the CCA (section 60)

 

the agreement fails to state the cash price of the PPI schedule 1 para 4 SI 1983 / 1553

 

the agreement fails to state the amount of credit (PPI) this breaches schedule 1 para 6 SI1983 /1553

 

the agreement fails to correctly state the total amount payable, this is a breach of schedule 1 para 11 SI 1983 / 1553

 

the agreement fails to state the default charges as required by schedule 1 para 22 SI 1983 / 1553

 

 

moving on to schedule 6 SI 1983 . 1553 Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983

 

the agreement fails to comply with schedule 6 para 1 in relation to the amount of credit for the PPI

 

 

 

now then thats a nice list, wonder if they would like to ask the court to consider these points>>>>>>>

 

Basically the agreement is improperly executed and therefore unenforceable as a result

 

GAME OVER

[beachcomber60]

Wow bleedin heck, thanks PT - I only set out to reclaim mis sold PPI!

 

Dare I ask for an explanation from them as to why they inserted N/A after I sent the agreement back to them (it had to be faxed back & I still have the original (scan 1))

 

Dare I ask for my ppi payments back with interest

 

Or should I tell 'em they've had over £12k from me bye bye?

 

Honestly don't know what my next move should be?

 

Beachy

[pt2537]

well, the next move is really your call.

 

you have a defective agreement which the court could find as being unenforceable and release you from all liabilities

 

you could use the issues raised to ask for your ppi back its really your call mate.

 

i cant make that call for you, i can only tell you what is wrong with the document you have posted

 

but i wouldnt take no sh!te from them thats for sure, you hold the power with that document not them.they may bluster and say that they disagree but at the end of the day, i would bet they wouldnt like to test this in court

 

With regards the N/A, i wouldnt worry about it, the agreement is defective enough to make them squirm mate, you dont need any more problems with it, they have created more than enough to get your teeth into

[beachcomber60]

Well that's something to ponder about over the weekend!

 

I'm tempted to tell them that I'll drop the ppi claim on condition they zero the account and remove cra markers.

 

A tough one - never been in this position before.

 

Beachy

[alanalana]

Hello Beachy and PT2537,

 

ok, down to the breaches of the CCA (section 60)

 

the agreement fails to state the cash price of the PPI schedule 1 para 4 SI 1983 / 1553

 

the agreement fails to state the amount of credit (PPI) this breaches schedule 1 para 6 SI1983 /1553

 

the agreement fails to correctly state the total amount payable, this is a breach of schedule 1 para 11 SI 1983 / 1553

 

the agreement fails to state the default charges as required by schedule 1 para 22 SI 1983 / 1553

 

 

moving on to schedule 6 SI 1983 . 1553 Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983

 

the agreement fails to comply with schedule 6 para 1 in relation to the amount of credit for the PPI

 

now then thats a nice list, wonder if they would like to ask the court to consider these points>>>>>>>

 

Basically the agreement is improperly executed and therefore unenforceable as a result

 

GAME OVER

 

Well that's something to ponder about over the weekend!

 

I'm tempted to tell them that I'll drop the ppi claim on condition they zero the account and remove cra markers.

 

A tough one - never been in this position before. Yes but it seems to be an extremely nice position to be in. Not just mis-sold PPI but an unenforceable CCA. I knew there was something amiss with the document but a brilliant job by PT2537 for the legal stuff.

Beachy

 

Definately worth an additional post Beachy after my comment. Pt is a real star.

 

aa

[pompeyfaith]

Could do with someone in the legal know go over my agreements because after the co-op bank issuing a default notice when my loan is in dispute makes me think have they got something to hide by trying to force me into a corner.

 

I did check the latest agreement last night with dualcalc again and noticed they APR did not match the APR in dualcalc.

 

Also with regards to multiple agreements ive been trying to find out the dates that these rule changes came into effect without any success.

 

Regards

 

Pompeyfaith

[beachcomber60]

Yes absolutely fantastic work by PT.

 

I can't thank you two enough with all your hard work & guidence with this one.

 

Just gotta decide how to handle this now, stop paying? and compose some form of letter to them I suppose.

 

Once again many many thanks to you both.

 

Beachy

[alanalana]

Hey beachy,

 

Yes absolutely fantastic work by PT.

 

I can't thank you two enough with all your hard work & guidence with this one.

 

Just gotta decide how to handle this now, stop paying? and compose some form of letter to them I suppose.

 

Once again many many thanks to you both.

 

Beachy :grin:

 

I believe that the Default Notice issued to you on an unenforceable agreement puts you in a very strong position (especially with regard to the posts by PT quoting the breaches of the CCA section 60 and all the relevant paragraphs). It would appear that they have screwed up big time on your CCA by failing to supply all of the prescribed terms and what numpties to miss off £2k if interest.

 

You can I believe, now put your account into dispute and obviously contest their Default Notice (DN) on the grounds that the CCA being in breach of the CCA 1974 is an unenforceable document.

 

Here is a link to BankerRhymesWith (BRW) thread on his fight on some similar issues but you may pick up some valid tactical pointers from it.

 

BRW v A Particularly Nasty Bank

 

PT has also been helping on this one.

 

aa

[hellhasnofury]

Excellent, excellent :lol:

 

This is just fantastic information for us.

 

Go get them:-D

[beachcomber60]

Mornin' HHNF,

 

Thanks - I only set out to reclaim missold PPI.

 

Trying to decide my next step now.

 

PS To think that only two weeks ago they were threatening me with charging orders etc.

Edited December 13, 2008 by beachcomber60
PS Added

[pt2537]

Dear Sirs

 

I write in respect of the credit agreement which you supplied in response to my statutory request.

 

I would ask that you forward this to your legal department as it contains points which should be answered by a solicitor or someone with legal expertise. failure to answer the points raised within this letter could lead to legal action against your company.

 

I note that you have supplied me with a copy of the signed agreement and i am now aware of some defects within this document which i would like to invite you to comment upon.

 

The form and content of a regulated agreement is set out within section 60 Consumer Credit Act 1974. Under section 60 the secretary of state is empowered to make regulations as to the information which a regulated agreement must contain to comply with the act.These regulations are the Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983(SI1983/1553)

 

The agreement clearly has payment protection insurance however there are no details on the amount of credit or cash price of this policy. According to Schedule 1 Para 4 Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) the agreement should state the cash price of the payment protection policy. in addition schedule 1 para 6 SI 1983/1553 states that the agreement must state the amount of credit to be provided for the payment protection policy.

 

the agreement fails to accuratley state the total amount which i will be required to pay in an accurate statement as no account is taken for the PPI policy, this is a breach of schedule 1 para 11 SI 1983/1553 and i also note that the agreement has no mention of any default or late payment charges, this is a clear breach of schedule 1 para 22 SI 1983/1553

 

These defects are sufficiently serious to leave the agreement improperly executed as set out within s61 Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

However there are some more serious defects which need addressing.

 

Turning our attention to Schedule 6 Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983 , the terms set out within this schedule are required for compliance with section 61(1)(a) Consumer Credit Act

 

The agreement fails to comply with schedule 6 para 1 which requires a term stating the amount of credit for the payment protection insurance. Failure to state a prescribed term correctly or at all renders the agreement unenforceable by virtue of section 127(3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and therefore the court would not, notwithstanding the defects which are set out in respect of schedule 1 SI 1983/1553, be able to make an order for enforcement of this agreement. This principle is enshrined within a mass of case law which includes judgments from the House of Lords in the case of Wilson and First County Trust.

 

On the back of legal advice, i am advised that the provisions of s127(3) are still effective for agreements entered into prior to 6th April 07. This is set out within schedule 3 para 11 of Consumer Credit Act 2006

 

 

Therefore i would invite you to consider these points and close the account and discharge me from all liabilities under this agreemeent and remove all adverse data on my credit file. should you refuse to follow my request, then i will have no option but to take legal action and bring the matter before the court to ask the court to make a declaration pursuant to section 142(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

I trust this wont be necessary and that you will comply with this request, i would ask for a reply by no later than 4pm on 15th January 2009

 

 

yours .......

 

 

Beachy

 

something along those lines may suitably upset them

[pt2537]

they will probably farm this out to Wragge & co who they often use for this type of work, if they do, dont be deterred as they are nothing to worry about

[beachcomber60]

Thanks PT, your an absolute star.

 

Letter will go 1st thing Monday (Recorded).

 

Thanks again,

Beachy.

[pt2537]

youre welcome Beachy

 

i drafted that very quickly so check the spelling and grammar as i am slightly dyslexic as well , so i do make the odd error and i dont have my secretary to check this one over:)

[alanalana]

Hello beachy,

 

PT got you on a nice roller now so I will bow out and good luck I will follow your thread with interest of course hoping you get (and I am sure you will) a cracking result.

 

aa

 

Thanks again PT for quality input where I was struggling a bit.

 

aa

[pt2537]

Hello beachy,

 

PT got you on a nice roller now so I will bow out and good luck I will follow your thread with interest of course hoping you get (and I am sure you will) a cracking result.

 

aa

 

Thanks again PT for quality input where I was struggling a bit.

 

aa

 

 

 

Hi AA

 

I have to be honest, i hadnt paid too much attention to the PPI forum, purely because my time is taken up in the debt forums but i never realised that there were so many defective agreements floating around in this part of the forum

 

I am working on a set of pleadings for the site and also a pre action discovery application and witness statements, in addition this may help the PPI forum, im looking at the issue of undisclosed commissions, this is rife in the PPI world and leave a person with a cast iron claim if there has been an undisclosed commission by a lender

 

Anyway, i dont want to look like im treading on the toes of the established helpers in this part of the forum

 

Hopfully beachy will get a good result with this case

 

Regards

 

Paul;

[beachcomber60]

Evening aa,

 

OK- Keep in touch, without guidence, encouragement & of course pt's help and cracking input and letter I'd still be looking at ways of reclaiming ppi.

 

Once again many thanks to you both (letter printed and ready to go).

 

Beachy

[alanalana]

Hello Paul,

 

Hi AA

 

I have to be honest, i hadnt paid too much attention to the PPI forum, purely because my time is taken up in the debt forums ( I had noticed you were busy in the other forums bravo for your assistance) but i never realised that there were so many defective agreements floating around in this part of the forum (Loads, but I have no legal knowledge other than a bit picked up from BRW who you know and have been helping with a defence as I have also).

I will hopefully become more legally aware as I learn and have picked up a few valuable points and found the CEA1995 which is a great Act with regard to the admissability of documents in Court.

 

I am working on a set of pleadings for the site and also a pre action discovery application and witness statements, in addition this may help the PPI forum, im looking at the issue of undisclosed commissions, this is rife in the PPI world and leave a person with a cast iron claim if there has been an undisclosed commission by a lender

 

Anyway, i dont want to look like im treading on the toes of the established helpers in this part of the forum There is absolutely no case of treading on toes;) This CAG is a group of self help and help others people who are trying to assist in situations where the authorities and banks etc are trying to take control. We, as hellhasnofury and Paintball will agree have been desparately short of legal support in this forum and we have mentioned this several times. PPI is a massive issue and any legal knowledge and assistance is received with gratefull thanks. PPI has needed this for a long while.

 

Hopfully beachy will get a good result with this case

 

Regards

 

Paul;

 

Your assistance is greatly appreciated by me and I am sure all the PPI forum Cagers. However I know your presence is required in the legal forum as people there have more urgent needs on DN. Court actions etc. The fact you have taken time out is much appreciated.

 

Thank you

 

aa