won Claim for return of College fees-service not provided - now Suing for loss of earnings.

[legalpickle]

Ok, thank you very much for the reply.

 

Can I ask why you'd like to know the name of the company?

So that others can be aware of a company that allegedly sells courses without having the lecturers.

 

I don't mean to be odd but I'm very new to this sort of thing so I don't have an understanding of the normal protocol.

If that's the case why didn't you ask for advice at the start? I write this because my recommendation will be to write another letter before legal action, because I don't think your previous letters were written well enough. Unfortunately, this is likely to make them less likely to settle before the claim is issued thinking you're not serious.

 

Also,

 

How much do you think I could claim for in terms of damages?

Define "damages"? As I've written above this is a very difficult area. Consequential losses would have to be proportionate. Describe - besides for the course & application charges - what losses you've incurred?

[needadvice1]

I will be claiming for the £800 plus other costs and damages incurred. Specifically, gross embarrassment and enormous loss of reliability/integrity of myself in my employer’s eyes in a time of mass employment uncertainty; fuel; parking charges; time wasted going to classes; the substantial delay in my career progression leading to loss of earnings and 6 months of time wasted.

[legalpickle]

I will be claiming for the £800 plus other costs and damages incurred. Specifically, gross embarrassment and enormous loss of reliability/integrity of myself in my employer’s eyes in a time of mass employment uncertainty; fuel; parking charges; time wasted going to classes; the substantial delay in my career progression leading to loss of earnings and 6 months of time wasted.

How do you put a value on "gross embarrassment", "enormous loss of reliability/integrity", "time wasted", "substantial delay in career progression"? Please be realistic. It is unlikely you will successfully get some of these and you will have to put realistic amounts on those that you may stand a chance on. As you've said above you don't have an understanding of the normal protocol.

 

Did you actually waste those 6 months?

 

Small claims track is not only relevant to the amount of the claim. If the claim would be complex or require substantial deliberations and possible expert witnesses [though expert witnesses are occasionally allowed in small claims] then the claim wouldn't go through the small claims track, but the fast track or multi track meaning virtually unlimited costs against you if you lose!

 

No offence meant but I respectfully recommend you take a reality check and sit down with a pen and paper to calculate the real consequential losses you have incurred. What you have written above would amount to compensation and would be mostly unlikely to succeed.

[needadvice1]

yes 6 months of time has been wasted because the next round of classes are 6 months later.

 

ok, so I would be able to claim for fuel, books purchased for the courses, parking charges, loss of earnings at 8% interest rate?

[legalpickle]

yes 6 months of time has been wasted because the next round of classes are 6 months later.

Either you're not reading what I'm writing or you're not grasping it. How does this waste 6 months? Wasting 6 months would be that you spent the whole 6 months doing their courses that ended up being incorrect coursework or something. At the end of the day when you weren't there, you could do other things. A delay of 6 months is not a waste of 6 months.

 

ok, so I would be able to claim for fuel, books purchased for the courses, parking charges, loss of earnings at 8% interest rate?

Why would you be entitled to the books if you were intending to study anyway? You'd need the books wherever and whenever you study, wouldn't you?

Prove loss of earnings! Quantify it!

Receipts for fuel and parking charges? If those can be realistically estimated [note: fuel prices fluctuate!] then yes.

[needadvice1]

re. books, the college i'd be going to supplies the books and the ones i have would not be applicable for their course

 

it wastes 6 months because effectively my career progression is on hold for 6 months. even if it classed as a delay, am I not able to claim for damages?

 

loss of earnings would be approx £2000 x 8% monthly interest rate for 6 months.

[legalpickle]

re. books, the college i'd be going to supplies the books and the ones i have would not be applicable for their course

If you'd claim for the books you'd have to return them to the defendant.

 

it wastes 6 months because effectively my career progression is on hold for 6 months. even if it classed as a delay, am I not able to claim for damages?

You'd have to quantify that loss to claim for damages. Try reasonably quantifying that loss.

 

loss of earnings would be approx £2000 x 8% monthly interest rate for 6 months.

[it wouldn't be x the interest. Leave that till later. For now quantify everything for me!]

I don't understand this. You were going to study with them, so according to this you'd have lost earnings during that period, but as you didn't study by them the whole time, you saved something. You could only claim the additional loss of earnings. Next, you say you have an employer. Is that employer putting their life on hold for you for 6 months? Please explain.

[needadvice1]

re. quantifying the financial worth of the delay, im having trouble with that. i have no idea how this should be calculated [apart from loss of earnings]

 

this is teh process...

i study with them; i pass 2 exams; i am given a raise of approx £1000 per exam. all this has been delayed by 6 months so i am owed for the delay in loss of earnings.

 

essentially, my progression at work and in my personal career is delayed by 6 months. at work, they expect me to progress rapidly and not waste time.

[legalpickle]

1. Read the previous posts. I've already said that you shouldn't bother claiming for compensation, because they can't be quantified or proven.

 

2. When exactly would you pass each test if you do so with the new company [date of result], and when exactly would you have passed the tests with LITR [date of results]? You could only claim the losses between those dates.

 

You seriously need to sit down and figure out what your losses are. Re-read my posts. Consequential losses & compensation are two separate things. Start by quantifying all your consequential losses - i.e. loss of earnings, costs, fuel, parking, etc... Separate each of them into different numbers and explain how you quantified them.

 

Till you can do that I can't help.

[legalpickle]

The sooner you can quantify your losses the sooner you can take action against them.

 

I have checked with The Office of the Independent Adjudicator for Higher Education (OIA : resolving student complaints) to see if LIT is covered and unfortunately they are not. The only higher education institutions that are covered are universities or complaints about courses that are provided by higher education institutions but result in certificates from universities [for example, a complaint about ICS about a course that is provided by UEL, but not a complaint about ICS about a Microsoft course for example and the complaints that would be accepted in such cases must be about the course, not the customer service]. So that route is out.

[needadvice1]

i would have passed around august 09 and have got my raise starting for the next month so from sept to jan 2010 im missing out on the extra pay of approx 2000 pa which would be £166.67 extra per month.

 

for fuel i would assume the charge would be 40p per mile which is about £8 all in all. Parking was about £10 overall.

 

The books i had to purcahse were about £80.

[legalpickle]

i would have passed around august 09 and have got my raise starting for the next month so from sept to jan 2010 im missing out on the extra pay of approx 2000 pa which would be £166.67 extra per month.

You said that there were 2 tests and after each test there would be a raise of approx £1,000. So please calculate exactly, in Excel. Playing devil's advocate "approximately" won't cut it with the court!

 

Approximate dates may be acceptable, but don't be over generous to yourself, but approximate amounts aren't.

 

for fuel i would assume the charge would be 40p per mile which is about £8 all in all. Parking was about £10 overall.

 

The books i had to purcahse were about £80.

Again, no "about" or "overall". Dates of purchase also.

 

I'm guessing from the course you're taking that you work in the accountancy sector. If that's the case you should be able to do the maths necessary in your case.

[needadvice1]

i can figure it all out exactly but i just dont see the point at the moment. ill have to go looking for receipts etc which may not be worth it if its not a significant amount.

 

the approx £1000 is what ive been told by my employer. i c an get exact figures but what is important is what happens with that £1000 to arrive at a figure that i am owed. i will get the results for the exams on the same day, so the fact that im sitting two exams, doesnt mean that i will get the results back on different days.

 

fyi i have already claimed the £800 bac kvia a chargeback however the case is still open and will be for around another 20 days.

Edited May 19, 2009 by needadvice1

[legalpickle]

i can figure it all out exactly but i just dont see the point at the moment. ill have to go looking for receipts etc which may not be worth it if its not a significant amount.

 

the approx £1000 is what ive been told by my employer. i c an get exact figures but what is important is what happens with that £1000 to arrive at a figure that i am owed. i will get the results for the exams on the same day, so the fact that im sitting two exams, doesnt mean that i will get the results back on different days.

Understood. The point of figuring out what you are owed is so that you can claim it. For fuel you don't need receipts and for parking charges, if there was a standard parking charge there and you know the dates you were there, again receipts are not necessary.

 

fyi i have already claimed the £800 bac kvia a chargeback however the case is still open and will be for around another 20 days.

Not the right move. You can't claim interest on the chargeback, as interest is only claimable if the amount hasn't been paid when proceedings are initiated. Also, if they win the chargeback it gives them ammunition. Finally, whilst the case is open, initiating a claim is not recommended in case it's refused.

 

Has the bank refunded the money to your account, with a statement that if the chargeback decision goes against you they'll take it back, or have they said you'll only get the money in 20 days if it goes in your favour?

[needadvice1]

excellent so parking and fuell are covered, i can figure those out.

 

re. the chargeback etc. im not bothered abt the interest really, its not enough fo rm eot bother with, id rather have the 800 back. and yes i do have it back. the retialer have 45 days from when the money has been paid back to me to dispute the decision, they havent so far and im assuming this is because tyhey know they dnt hv a chance!

 

i wasnt going to bring a claim until the 45 days was up anyway.

 

btw, how do i figure out the loss of income then?

[legalpickle]

excellent so parking and fuell are covered, i can figure those out.

 

re. the chargeback etc. im not bothered abt the interest really, its not enough fo rm eot bother with, id rather have the 800 back. and yes i do have it back. the retialer have 45 days from when the money has been paid back to me to dispute the decision, they havent so far and im assuming this is because tyhey know they dnt hv a chance!

That's a change of tune! When you first posted here, it seemed like you wanted everything you can get out of them. Now you're suddenly waiving interest for them! Make your mind up!

 

i wasnt going to bring a claim until the 45 days was up anyway.

 

btw, how do i figure out the loss of income then?

I've already explained that! You're the one who works in the accountancy field! You need to find out exactly how much your employer would be increasing your wage by for the two exams, the - as close as possible - date you would have passed the two exams with LIT, and the date - as close as possible - that you will pass the two exams with the new provider. The difference in pay, each month between the two dates, is what you MAY be entitled to.

 

Few issues:

- I would much appreciate if you make an effort when posting to write competently, rather than mixing up letters like above. I don't like having to put an effort into understanding what you write.

- The chargeback was a mistake. You should have asked here before the chargeback, explaining the full problems. I don't know if it will cause problems but it may, as your letters demand a refund and as they haven't raised a dispute on the chargeback, technically they have given you a refund, which may be classed as a full & final settlement. If they raise that as a defence they may well succeed.

- You can't issue a claim for consequential losses till the losses have all been incurred. What I mean is, you can't sue for a future loss or something not yet paid for. So, if the the proposed date of exams is in 3 months, you can't issue till then. You could send a new LBA before then, but not issue till that date - and the passing of exams.

[needadvice1]

In the letters i've been acting aggressive but i'm not going to bother for small amounts.

 

re. loss of income...its not relly a loss, its more a delay, because I will take those exams and get that pay rise, just 6 months later.that's why im having trouble figuring it out. i assumed i would only be able to claim the interest on the income lost, but at what rate? 8%?

 

re. my letters demanding a "refund". i did ask for that yes, but by the same token, could i just not write a new letter demanding more?

[legalpickle]

In the letters i've been acting aggressive but i'm not going to bother for small amounts.

 

re. loss of income...its not relly a loss, its more a delay, because I will take those exams and get that pay rise, just 6 months later.that's why im having trouble figuring it out. i assumed i would only be able to claim the interest on the income lost, but at what rate? 8%?

I repeat, let me work out the interest!!! It is a loss, because you'd have had the money 6 months earlier than you will!

 

re. my letters demanding a "refund". i did ask for that yes, but by the same token, could i just not write a new letter demanding more?

Not that simple! You're meant to break down what you claim from somebody in the letter before action, not just go for more when you get some.

 

I'll do my best, but you need to act competently, and please don't write all in lowercase or in text language - it really gets on my nerves. You can't do that in court documents, so don't when asking for advice!

[needadvice1]

Hi again, I just got a letter from my bank saying that my claim has been refused on the grounds that my claim was based on the issue of quality of service, which is not measurable.

 

It took them 2 months + to work that out!

 

Looks like I am taking them to small claims court and would appreciate any help in drafting letters etc.

[legalpickle]

Your bank isn't liable. You'd be claiming against the company. Therefore I suggest you re-read the thread and quantify your losses first, then when their quantified, I'll work out interest for you and you can send a final LBA to the company, then 14 days later, it's prepare the Particulars of Claim.

 

Till you've quantified your losses, as I've written above, I can't help.

[needadvice1]

Hi,

 

I've quantified all of my losses as you said, please see below:

 

Teaching costs per subject = £350 x 2 = £800

 

Registration fee = £100

 

Books = £73.50

 

6 month delay in receipt of extra earnings of £2000 p.a

 

Parking costs of 50p per hr x 2hrs x 4 visits = £10

 

Petrol=How is this worked out? It's a 14 mile round trip.

 

I believe, in light of your posts, the above items are what I could successfully claim for.

 

Please advise further.

[legalpickle]

Hi,

 

I've quantified all of my losses as you said, please see below:

 

Teaching costs per subject = £350 x 2 = £800

 

Registration fee = £100

 

Books = £73.50

 

6 month delay in receipt of extra earnings of £2000 p.a

 

Parking costs of 50p per hr x 2hrs x 4 visits = £10

 

Petrol=How is this worked out? It's a 14 mile round trip.

 

I believe, in light of your posts, the above items are what I could successfully claim for.

 

Please advise further.

I seem to recall requesting dates. I also seem to recall advising that the extra earnings needed to be quantified better. How often do you get paid? If it's monthly then the extra earnings would need to be specified monthly, between the date you'd have the exam results had you taken the course they were offering and the date you have the exam results taking the course you're taking. You can't just claim £2,000p.a. from whenever till whenever. I believe this is the issue I was trying to accentuate in my previous posts.

 

Also, I believe I asked for the dates you incurred the losses.

 

Till these are quantified EXACTLY with dates, there's nothing I can do.

[needadvice1]

I figured out the dates myself and quoted 6 months because it is exactly a 6 month gap. Pay increase would have happened 1st August 09 instead it's now delayed to 1st Feb 09 i.e. 6 months. I get paid monthly.

 

Dates losses incurred:

 

£800 for teaching and registration on 24th January

Books purchased on 7th February 2009

Parking and petrol costs incurred on 24/01, 31/01, 07/02, 21/02

 

That should be everything

[legalpickle]

I figured out the dates myself and quoted 6 months because it is exactly a 6 month gap. Pay increase would have happened 1st August 09 instead it's now delayed to 1st Feb 09 i.e. 6 months. I get paid monthly.

 

Dates losses incurred:

 

£800 for teaching and registration on 24th January

Books purchased on 7th February 2009

Parking and petrol costs incurred on 24/01, 31/01, 07/02, 21/02

 

That should be everything

I assume you mean 1st August '08 [not '09]. What is the exact amount monthly that you lost from loss of wages between 1st August '08 till 1st February '09?

 

Let me clarify that you would have had the exam results by 1st August '08 had you taken their course, and had the positive exam results by 1st February '09 from the new course?

 

Quick question: What was the cost of the new course including books?

[needadvice1]

No the pay increase would happen in Aug 09 because results are released at the end of July 09, so increased wage rate would be effective from the next month. For the new course, the results are released Jan 2010 [this must have been where I confused you], so my pay increase would start from Feb 2010.

 

Exact amount of wages lost between Aug 2009 and Feb 2010 is £1000 ([£2000p.a./12 months] x 6 months).

 

The cost of the new course is £2265.