my friend who works as a security guard

[godpikachu]

Can the company be fined or have any penalty imposed on them if YOU the individual commits benefit fraud.

 

well, as benefit fraud is a crime, they could in theory be charged with being an accessory to a crime..

 

Furthermore, they have sacked you based on hearsay so would that not be slander. To effectively accuse you of a crime you had neither been charged with or had been even questioned about?

exactly, this is my point, i dont know what the content of the conversation the manager had with the dole office entailed, but from what i gather someone rang the place up to confirm wether i was working there or not as part of the LEP (local employment partnership) scheme. as my signing card had obviously been misplaced on its way to the admin centre for processing, my file with the dole showed that i was still signing on, so the idiot on the phone has put 2 and 2 together and got 50 and decided to flag the file as a possible benefit fraud.

 

this isnt the first time the dole office has managed to **** up my signing off, although this is the first time that the words "benefit fraud" have been directly mentioned.

 

the main problem boils down to the fact that the signing off cards are processed at a central admin office, rather than at the signing office like they used to be.

in the process of transferring them from one office to another, cards get lost, misplaced, mixed in with other stuff or just get ignored.

 

I would certainly put in a complaint at the highest level and insist that they inform your employers of their mistake. Hopefully ,fingers crossed, your employer will take you back on. Good luck

 

i have already drafted a letter which i will take into the dole office tomorrow and insist that i be allowed to deliver it into the hands of the most senior manager there, i am also considering writing to my MP over the matter.

[omalleyr]

Write to you employer asking to raise a Grievance against the person that has sacked you. I doubt you'll get anywhere with this but it's the first step you need to make. Should you receive no response within 28 days or be refused then take this to tribunal - download the ET1 form from the ACAS website.

[omalleyr]

And I would suggest a letter to your MP.

[godpikachu]

Write to you employer asking to raise a Grievance against the person that has sacked you. I doubt you'll get anywhere with this but it's the first step you need to make. Should you receive no response within 28 days or be refused then take this to tribunal - download the ET1 form from the ACAS website.

 

 

was only employed for just over a week so an ET1 will be denied unless i am mistaken or there is some other angle here that i can use?.

 

..And I would suggest a letter to your MP.

 

yes, i think i will send them a copy of the lette rim giving to the dole with a covering note, unless of course the dole office does something about it tomorrow.

 

this is the letter i have drafted out for the dole, comments welcome...

 

Dear Sir or Madam

 

I wish to make a very serious complaint with regards to your so called "service".

 

I began working for (company name) on the 30th of March 2009 as an archive clerk/administrator. On the morning of 30/03/09, i returned my signing off card (the "tear off form" from the middle of my dole book) to the (dole) office wher eit was handed to the receptionist at approximatley 9:15am.

 

On the morning of Thursday the 2nd of April at approximatley 10:30am, i recieved a call on my mobile phone from one of your pepole asking why i had not presented myself for my appointment at 10:15am that morning. I explained to he that I had begun working on 30/03/09 for (company name) and had returned my signing off crd to the dole office for processing, the woman asked me various other irrelevant questions such as about how much i was earning etc etc which I refused to answer as it is no ones business about how much I earn other than mine and the tax mans.

The woman then apologised for disturbing me and said that she w ould "make a note" that I had started working on my file.

 

On the morning of the 8th of April 2009 i was summoned to my managers, (name), office at work and was told that she had recieved a telephone call from yourselves asking to confirm wether i was working there or not, she replied in the affirmative and then your caller proceeded to tell (name) that it was believed that I was committing benefit fraud as they had no record of me signing off, and that i had not shown for my signing day the previous week.

(name) asked me to explain my actions and i explained truthfully that your people had messed up my signing off and were now making baseless accusations of fraud against me and committing slander by informing my employer of this without having conducted any kind of investigation.

(name) said she owuld consider this and I was told to return to work.

20 minutes later (name) and a security guard escorted me from the premises as she said that after careful consideration and a conversation with someone from your end it was decided that I was committing an illegal act (namely fraud) and that my employment was to be terminated with immediate effect.

I then went striaght to the (dole) jobcentre and demanded to speak with someone senior with regards to this farcical matter, and in the end I spoke with (name).

It took (name) less than 15 minutes, 5 minutes of which he spent on the phone to your admin centre in (place) to find that my signing off card had been misplaced, but had now been found and was being processed.

He also advised that as i had worked for more than 16 hours the sign off would have to stand and that I should ifll out a rpaid reclim form, which would be posted to me within the next 2 days, and that the claim would be fast tracked.

I requested that he call my former employer and inform them that a mistake had been made at their end and that no benefit fraud had occured, but he refused and said it was not his place to. I have tried contacting my former employer myself but they now refuse to speak to me and state that if I attempt to enter their premisies i will be charged with trespassing.

 

Basically, I have lost my current employment due to your inefficient administration proceedures, poor quality staff training and the jobcentres inherent culture of ignorance, and, as such, i have now lost nearly £15,000 worth of potential earnings due to your staff not being able to do their jobs correctly.

 

Due to your staffs error, I am now once again unemployed, after previously spending nearly 5 months looking for work, only to have my job taken away from me within a fortnight due to gross incompentance on your part.

Nothing you can say can compensate me in any way for the anguish this has caused, and I dont want to hear the usual rubbish about "implementing new proceedures" etc etc that you usually come out with whenever anyone makes a complaint, the way I see it, you now owe me £15,000 in lost earnings.

Do not try and argue this point, you do, YOUR incompetance cost ME my job, nothing I did was in any way responsible for my employment eing terminated.

 

If i do not recieve a reasonable written reply from yourselves within 5 working days, then I will have no choice but to bring this matter to the attention of my MP and the press, and, I may also consider taking civil action against you to recoup the lost earnings.

 

You have 5 working days, i look forward to hearing from you.

[patdavies]

was only employed for just over a week so an ET1 will be denied unless i am mistaken or there is some other angle here that i can use?.

 

Breach of contract; doesn't require 12 months service.

 

At the very least you should get paid for your contractual notice period (or 1 week's notice if no contractual period)

[godpikachu]

what contrct?, i was inside my 3 month "trial" period, duruing which time they say they can terminate my employment without notice (which is what happenned)

[Gogivit]

I agree with some of the comments above that this issue is absolutely discusting!

 

YOU MUST!

 

Make a formal complaint and demand a formal investigation.

 

I personally would go as far as writing to Gordon Brown and DEMAND that he investigate this issue. In addition I would DEMAND a resignation from those invvolved!

[angel88]

I am currently claiming JSA and have been for a while and hate it. I really want a job but not been able to get one yet and the job centre staff are useless they are on at you none stop to get a job and put you on total waste of time courses that are suposed to help you get a job and they actually hold you back cos of lack of computers and staff. There is nothing that you can't do at home that you can do there.

 

If I was the opening poster I would go off my head at the job centre its discusting that they wont phone the job they had to explain the mix up that was 100% their fault. They are suposed to help you get a job and preferably keep the job you get. Totally discusting. I would take this as far as you can as you had a job and wanted to keep it and the people who are ment to help you lost you the job so they can't fairly say you have not tryed to get a job.

[ErikaPNP]

First off, forget "considering" getting your MP involved..... GET your MP involved, no consideration required. This is completely unacceptable. Furthermore, they had NO right to tell your employer they suspected you of benefit fraud, unless there was an ongoing investigation and the Fraud Team had contacted them to gather evidence. Did you give your consent for them to speak to your employer and disclose your details? Did you give your employer consent to discuss your employment with the Jobcentre? If not, then you can add to that security breaches. At any time if the Jobcentre wishes to discuss your claim with a third party, they must have your consent to do so, unless like I say, your claim is under investigation.

 

Have a look here: DWP - Advisers - Compensation Recovery Unit: About the Compensation Recovery Unit

 

And here: DWP - Resource centre - Policy and strategy publications - Guide to Financial Redress for Maladministration - Introduction

 

Other issue you may want to raise is this: One week after you commenced at your post was the day the benefit section phoned your employer. If you had not told them willingly that you were working there, how could they possibly had known? They couldn't. They can contact HMRC to find out via tax records where someone is working (the CSA do this, for example) however they could not have that information within a week of you commencing employment. Frankly, it is impossible. I'd also do an SAR.

 

I'm furious on your behalf! One of the main objectives of the Jobcentre is to assist and encourage people in securing employment, yet in this case, they have cost you it!!

 

They may argue that it was your employers decision to terminate your contract, not theirs but you can argue back that she took that decision as a direct result of the incompetent and inappropriate actions of the Jobcentre employee.

[ErikaPNP]

I agree with some of the comments above that this issue is absolutely discusting!

 

YOU MUST!

 

Make a formal complaint and demand a formal investigation.

 

I personally would go as far as writing to Gordon Brown and DEMAND that he investigate this issue. In addition I would DEMAND a resignation from those invvolved!

 

The person responsible probably won't get a chance to resign. For that sort of action they will more than likely have their employment terminated. Also, if the OP was to sue the department, they in turn can sue the employee (or former employee as the case may soon be)

[godpikachu]

First off, forget "considering" getting your MP involved..... GET your MP involved, no consideration required. This is completely unacceptable. Furthermore, they had NO right to tell your employer they suspected you of benefit fraud, unless there was an ongoing investigation and the Fraud Team had contacted them to gather evidence. Did you give your consent for them to speak to your employer and disclose your details?

 

Well, the jobcentre i go to runs something called "LEP", which stands for "local employment partnership".

From my understanding of this concept, if you apply for a job under the LEP scheme (which this job was), then the jobcentre are authorised to discuss your employment with your employer (basically its a way of checking up to make sure you are serious about having a job).

 

that said though, i doubt that the LEP scheme gives them any right to discuss specifics of the claim, or to divulge sensitive info.

 

that said, my discussion with the guy this morning showed that my file was NOT under investigation for anything, but there was a note on saying that i had started work, thats all, so its basically someone just speaking out of turn.

 

of course, there is always the possibility that the manager oculd have just fabricated the allegation as a way of getting rid of me without having to go through any disciplinaries or anything like that, not that i did anything that was sack worthy, on the contrary they were quite pleased with my work.

 

I will find out exactly what happenned tomorrow, one way or another.

 

 

 

I'm furious on your behalf! One of the main objectives of the Jobcentre is to assist and encourage people in securing employment, yet in this case, they have cost you it!!

 

They may argue that it was your employers decision to terminate your contract, not theirs but you can argue back that she took that decision as a direct result of the incompetent and inappropriate actions of the Jobcentre employee.

 

this is my point exactly, the whole idea of the jobcentre is that its supposed to assist its "customers" in the endeavor of finding and retaining gainful employment, however it seems that a lot of the time they go out of their way to keep you unemployed....

 

its a perverse situation.

[andie_303]

do you have to have worked for someone for 12 months to take them to an employment tribunal?

[ErikaPNP]

Most jobseeker claims do have a clause in them to contact an employer to confirm employment has commenced, however just how much info can be disclosed is another thing entirely. They have no right to divulge that you are suspected of benefit fraud unless there is an ongoing investigation, and even then it is for the Fraud Team to discuss. If the person suspected you were, then that is up to him/her to file a report on it to the fraud team, certainly not to voice what would only be his or her speculations to your employers.

 

Other matters you need to get JCP to establish to you are, if there was consent to discuss with the employer: How was the JCP employee satisfied that this person who spoke on the telephone was a party he or she could reveal details to? It could easily have been a colleague of yours, or the cleaner! Did he or she ask relevant security questions? And how could the employer be certain it was JCP they were speaking to/ Both your employer and JCP have a duty to protect your personal data.

 

Whenever JCP discuss any individual's claim on the telephone, they have to be satisfied that the person they are speaking to has the right to the information being disclosed. If, for example JCP is asked to contact a Welfare Rights officer about a customer's claim and JCP telephone Welfare Rights, ask for the officer concerned, they cannot just accept it is the officer by name, they have to ask specific questions that only a genuine representative of that specific claimant would have the answers to. It is part of the security guidelines laid down by JCP and is taken very seriously, particularly after recent breaches of security by government. Anyone found to be breaching security can be dismissed immediately, it is a very serious offence in terms of JCP employment.

[ErikaPNP]

Yes, unless you are dismissed on specific grounds of discrimination.

 

EDIT: Sorry that was in response to Andi's post!

[godpikachu]

hmm, some very useful bits and bobs there, the main key points i need to establish when i see them tomorrow will be the following then:-

 

 

1. where did they get permission to discuss my affairs with the employer?
   
2. what exactly was discussed?
   
3. was a recording of the call made?
   
4. is provision for discussion of personal information made under the terms of the LEP scheme?
   
5. who exactly made the call and was the call made under the LEP scheme?
   
6. what does JCP plan to do to rectify the situation?
   

 

as far as i am concerned, there will only be 3 acceptable outcomes to this:-

 

1. The manager of the JCP contacts my former employer, explains their mistake, and ensures that I am reinstated in my former job without a blemish on my record.
   
2. JCP compensate me in full for lost earnings.
   
3. JCP find me guaranteed alternative employment with a minimum wage equal to or exceeding that which i would have earnt in my lost job.
   

ANY other outcome, including half-hearted apology letters, promises of enquiries/investigations or trying to pin any blame on me whatsoever will result in some serious bother for JCP.

[saintly_1]

I think you have been treated abominably I would certainly contact your MP.

[elche]

 

as far as i am concerned, there will only be 3 acceptable outcomes to this:-

 

1. The manager of the JCP contacts my former employer, explains their mistake, and ensures that I am reinstated in my former job without a blemish on my record.
   
2. JCP compensate me in full for lost earnings.
   
3. JCP find me guaranteed alternative employment with a minimum wage equal to or exceeding that which i would have earnt in my lost job.
   

 

Hi GP,

 

Sorry that I totally missed this thread. Limited time means that I just look for the OP's with low / no replies

 

In any event, as you already know from the many posts you have placed in this forum, your position from an Employment Law perspective is very weak due to your very short service.

 

I'n not sure of your ethnicity, or disability status, etc.., but, in the absence of linking this to something like that, you're effectively going no where tribunal wise.

 

Thus it would appear that you are left with some kind of negligence based claim against JCP the DWP no?

 

Suing these organs of the state is always litigation riven with difficulties. Thus unless you intend to sue JCP, (and I think they have treated you appallingly) with all the problems that will result, , I don't really see where you can go with this?

 

Kind regards, and good luck with any job hunting.

 

Stay positive GP.

 

Che

[godpikachu]

Hi GP,

 

Sorry that I totally missed this thread. Limited time means that I just look for the OP's with low / no replies

 

In any event, as you already know from the many posts you have placed in this forum, your position from an Employment Law perspective is very weak due to your very short service.

 

I'n not sure of your ethnicity, or disability status, etc.., but, in the absence of linking this to something like that, you're effectively going no where tribunal wise.

 

yeah, ive already discounted tribunal action as a no go.

ethnic/disability wise im in a no go too, as i am a single white male, and aside from occasional bouts of insomnia and stress related depression (caused by being unemplyed) i have no real disabilities to speak of, certainly nothing that i could base a claim on.

 

 

Thus it would appear that you are left with some kind of negligence based claim against JCP the DWP no?

 

Suing these organs of the state is always litigation riven with difficulties. Thus unless you intend to sue JCP, (and I think they have treated you appallingly) with all the problems that will result, , I don't really see where you can go with this?

 

yeah, basically i hoping that the thought of having my MP intervene in the matter, and the possibility of exposure in the press will pressure the jobcentre into sorting something out, although of this i am not too hopeful.

 

as for being able to directly sue JCP for lost earnings, im not sure how to go about this.

I cant afford a solicitor, and im unsure as to wether this would be covered under legal aid.

 

Kind regards, and good luck with any job hunting.

 

Stay positive GP.

 

Che

 

im keeping my fingers crossed that something good will happen, and that i wont be left out in the cold, but being as i am taking on one of the most inefficient and incompetant parts of the "state" in this matter, seeing a light at the end of the tunnel is rather difficult.

[Zamzara]

Any legal action would be against the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, because his department acts on his behalf. Getting your MP involved is a start but I would see a solicitor too as it sounds like a clear case for compensation.

 

In pratice they may settle out of court.

[Lula]

sod it, I would go straight to the press and your MP (I mean National Press)

[Conniff]

I personally would go as far as writing to Gordon Brown and DEMAND that he investigate this issue.

 

 

If it doesn't increase Browns pension then he won't be interested.

[ErikaPNP]

hmm, some very useful bits and bobs there, the main key points i need to establish when i see them tomorrow will be the following then:-

 

 

1. where did they get permission to discuss my affairs with the employer?
   
2. what exactly was discussed?
   
3. was a recording of the call made?
   
4. is provision for discussion of personal information made under the terms of the LEP scheme?
   
5. who exactly made the call and was the call made under the LEP scheme?
   
6. what does JCP plan to do to rectify the situation?
   

 

as far as i am concerned, there will only be 3 acceptable outcomes to this:-

 

1. The manager of the JCP contacts my former employer, explains their mistake, and ensures that I am reinstated in my former job without a blemish on my record.
   
2. JCP compensate me in full for lost earnings.
   
3. JCP find me guaranteed alternative employment with a minimum wage equal to or exceeding that which i would have earnt in my lost job.
   

ANY other outcome, including half-hearted apology letters, promises of enquiries/investigations or trying to pin any blame on me whatsoever will result in some serious bother for JCP.

 

Yes, however they probably will have to investigate the matter, because unless you know the individual's name whose negligence cost you your job, they will have to find out who it was, by looking at call records, unless the individual comes forward and admits to it. Again if the call was not recorded (a lot of departments - government, DCA's, Local Authorities et all which record calls record incoming but not outgoing), they will probably need to approach your former employers also. If they do not fully investigate the matter it's unlikely action can be taken. From their point of view they cannot act only on information provided within a complaint letter, every complaint will need to be investigated to find out exactly what happened from all angles, how it happened and what they can do to avoid it from occuring again, as well as how they can best resolve the matter and compensate you for your loss. From their point of view they have to be sure that what you are saying is factual (I am NOT suggesting it isn't, only showing how they would possibly look at it) by throughly investigating it. As with all complaints, to any company, until they can investigate it and find the proof they need, it is an allegation. I don't know if this is how JCP will look at it, only suggesting it MAY be.

 

I cannot stress the importance of having your MP write to them about this. It is well known that when an MP becomes involved if a government department is negligent, they act a whole lot quicker to resolve matters. Your MP will also be used to dealing with them and will be in a better position from that knowledge to resolve matters.

 

However, what has happened is not acceptable at all and there is no two ways about that. If they are responsible for the loss of your employment through negligence then you are within your rights to take this as far as you possibly can.

 

As regards the press, although it may seem a good idea to involve them, I'd take legal advice first and foremost. Anything you say to the press may well impede on any legal action you take so I'd be seek advice first.

[godpikachu]

well, after having a lengthy conversation with one of the mangers this morning, the matter is now "under investigation", and they have asked that i go back this time next week, primarily to process my fast tracked JSA claim (fast track eh?, takes em over a week to sort out, *sigh*), but also to inform me of the findings of the investigation.

 

I have asked that any findings and a report etc be put in writing for me to be able to take a copy away.

 

so, they have a week to think up a good excuse

[jackieandwayne]

This is appalling, and I cannot believe it has happened to you - you help so many people on here! Sod's law or what?

 

I'm sure we can rely on you to take this to the bitter end whatever that may be - and I know everyone on here will support you.

 

Perhaps even that argumentative troll I've seen badgering you and Ell-en from time to time?!

 

Subscribed and fingers crossed for you. Good luck with this and getting a new job.

[purejayne]

I'm so sorry to hear about your appalling treatment GP - its disgusting.

 

Certainly make sure your MP is fully aware of this. If you can go and take some legal advice from a Solicitor and also check if you have expenses cover on any insurance policies you may have should there be a way of taking legal action against this incompetence. I can't believe what I've read - certainly some individual should be quaking in his/her boots now.

 

I don't know about signing on for Jobseekers but don't you have to sign some sort of Agreement when you do with the Jobcentre. Is there anything in that about their/your obligations towards each other? Breach of Contract may be an option if there is.

 

I'll keep looking in on this.