£80 fine and letter from Midas legal services

[Asif]

Hi everyone!

 

Hope someone can help me out. My dad sold a car 3 years back and filled out the V5 documents and posted them to the DVLA. A few weeks ago(thats right almost 3 years to the day!) he received a letter from Moorcroft Debt Recovery Limited asking him to pay a fine of £80. I told him to leave it and that we would contact the DVLA and explain ourselves. I also had a look here to read what experiences people had had and what I could do. Today he received another letter from Midas Legal services notifying him that since he had not paid the fine they may proceed with legal proceedings if he didn't pay them by the 12th of December. I contacted the DVLA on his behalf and the lady I got through to said they had not received any documents and he was still the registered owner and that I could send them a letter now to take his name off. Also she couldn't give me any more details with regards the penalty. I tried to explain to her but she said she couldn't help and that I needed to contact Moorcroft Debt Recovery Limited directly. I contacted them and the guy on the other end was being an idiot so I said we were not going to pay and they can do as they wish. Now I am going to write a letter to the DVLA and ask them (again) to take my dad off as the registered keeper. Can anyone help me with regards to the fine? I know it's easier to just pay up and get it over and done with but I'm really angry and would like to contest it. I've read what varias other people have done but not many people come back and write what happened in the end.

Any help would be much appreciated. (Even better would be a template of a letter I could send them!)

 

[Conniff]

Hi Asif

 

You don't need a template, all you need is to ask them to prove you owe them and nothing more.

 

If this car hasn't been scrapped, then someone has been taxing or declaring it SORN each year, so DVLA would know about it in that case.

[flyingdoc]

What you need to do is to swear out a statutory declaration that you sold the car and when, this can be done at the local Mag court and costs (according to Tomtubby who knows about such things) £5 swearing fee.

 

Once that is done send copy to the DVLA and send a letter to Midas telling them that the fine was not yours (providing that the fine relates to a time after you sold the car)

After you have done all this let them take you to court if they so wish - they will lose.

[sickpup]

Iassume this is to do with SORN.

 

If it is have you ever been served with an LLP from DVLA? If not request the originals.

[Asif]

Thanks Conniff and flyingdoc and sickpup!

I agree conniff, someone has been taxing or getting a SORN for the last 3 years and onlt now they write to my dad! I said that to the lady at the DVLA and she just said "Well I don't know how someone's done that, I can't help you an further, please contact Midas" etc etc So silly!!!

Sickpup my dad can't remember getting anything, it was a long time ago. That was the reason he thought everything was okay now because surely he would / should have got a letter the very next year asking him to tax or SORN the vehicle.

I've sent a letter to the DVLA explaining the situation (how it was sold 3 years ago etc) and saying that he will not pay the penalty and that if they bother him again he will contact his solicitor and MP.

Let's wait and see what they say before taking our next step.

[flyingdoc]

The DVLA may request that you swear out a statutory declaration to the effect that he sold the car and when and who to (whatever details he can remember)

[Asif]

Flyingdoc I'll wait for the letter and then depending on what they ask for I'm sure my dad would be prepared to do that.

 

I'll keep everyone updated, this may be of use to others.

[Asif]

An update:

 

My dad got a letter which I have uploaded for everyone to see. I'm also including the original letter I sent out. They're so thick, didn't even send me a copy of the original penalty notice or acknowledge the fact that someone has been buying the tax for 3 years!

What do I do now? :s

 

 

Original letter:

 

Dear Sir / Madam

 

I am writing to notify you once again that I sold my car 3 years ago and want my details to be taken off your database as the registered keeper.

The details of the car are as follows:

 

xxxxxxx

xxxxxxx

 

Sold: September 2005, xxxxxxx

 

I have also received a letter from ‘Moorcroft Debt Recovery Ltd’ informing me that I am liable for an £80 fine for non-declaration of SORN. I am not prepared to pay this and have contacted them who have asked me to contact you directly. I originally sent the V5 documents when I sold the car but it appears these were misplaced by an employee of the DVLA. Can you please waive this penalty as you can see the car was sold 3 years ago and only now have I received a notice. If the penalty is not waived and Moorcroft Debt Recovery Ltd do not stop harassing me I shall have no choice but to write to my local MP Theresa May.

 

Could you please also do the following:

(i) Send me a copy of the original penalty notice

(ii) Confirm in writing that you did not lose my documents.

 

If I do not receive a letter to the contrary I will assume this matter is now closed.

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

xxxx

 

 

Here is the letter they sent.

 

 

 

[crem]

So their letter basically says;

maybe you sent a notification but we lost it. As we lost it we therefore didn't update our records. As we didn't update our records we didn't send you a notification that we had done an update. because of our cock up we think you owe us £80. However, we will resind the charge if you can show us a copy of the letter we didn't send you after we didn't update our records after we lost your mail in the first place.

[patdavies]

If this car hasn't been scrapped, then someone has been taxing or declaring it SORN each year, so DVLA would know about it in that case.

 

You don't need a V5 or V11 to tax a vehicle.

 

As long a VED is showing against the vehicle's VRM, there is no reason for the DVLA to know that the OP's father is not the RK.

[gwc1000]

Hy, Asif. Do not pay! Write back to Moorcroft stating that you deny any debt and that you would prefer this matter to be dealt with by a Court. Also send a copy of your letter to DVLA.

DVLA are now trying to avoid these cases going to Court and are using debt collectors in the hope that people will cave in easily.

[Asif]

You don't need a V5 or V11 to tax a vehicle.

 

As long a VED is showing against the vehicle's VRM, there is no reason for the DVLA to know that the OP's father is not the RK.

 

 

Sorry I'm confused.

The bit I don't understand is that to tax a vehicle you need a registration certificate or the new keeper supplement so how did this person (or persons) manage to tax it for 3 years? If they filled out a V62 form then the DVLA should have changed the details based on that information surely? And if they did get it taxed don't the DVLA have a record of who taxed the vehicle?

 

Also, they've ignored my request to send the original LLP.

My dad's really pi**ed off. It's not the £80 but feels he's being unjustly treated after 3 years when he has done nothing wrong.

[Asif]

Well I've written another letter telling them my dad is not going to pay unless they could prove liability in the court and to recall the alleged debt from Moorgate. See what they say.

[patdavies]

Sorry I'm confused.

The bit I don't understand is that to tax a vehicle you need a registration certificate or the new keeper supplement so how did this person (or persons) manage to tax it for 3 years?

 

2 years (less than that if it was sold with VED) - so only taxed once. Fill in V62 with any details you like for name/address and pay the extra £25 - A Post Office doesn't check, it takes the fees, examines the MoT and Insurance (doesn't matter whose name is on it as long as it has the correct VRM)

 

If they filled out a V62 form then the DVLA should have changed the details based on that information surely? And if they did get it taxed don't the DVLA have a record of who taxed the vehicle?

 

You'd think, wouldn't you.

 

No they don't know who taxed the vehicle - this is not recorded. You do not have to be RK to tax a vehicle - I know, I tax my wife's for her.

[gwc1000]

Well I've written another letter telling them my dad is not going to pay unless they could prove liability in the court and to recall the alleged debt from Moorgate. See what they say.

Good. Come back here when you get a reply.

[Asif]

An update:

 

This is what I wrote to them:

(It's an amalgamation of some stuff from other people. Thanks guys!)

 

Dear Mr Archbold,

 

I acknowledge receipt of your automatically generated letter dated 29th January 2009 (copy attached) in respect of the alleged penalty charge outstanding on the above vehicle and refer you to my letter dated 13th December 2008 (copy attached).

 

As I stated in that letter, the vehicle was transferred to a new owner in September of 2005 and I duly notified DVLA by returning the V5 document. At that point, my duty under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 to notify a change of keeper was discharged and so the provisions of Regulation 22 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations, under which the disputed Penalty Charge arise, cannot apply.

 

I am neither responsible, nor liable, for any failure by the DVLA to update their records in accordance with the information I supplied to them when disposing of the vehicle. I fully understand that the DVLA have a responsibility to maintain the Continuous Registration records for millions of vehicles and appreciate that these penalty charges are a valuable tool to that end. However, unless they can clearly demonstrate that I failed to submit the change of keeper details - which is impossible because I did submit them - the charge is not enforceable.

Since I also believe you are misrepresenting a point of law, by requiring me to provide an acknowledgement letter from you when no such Statutory requirement exists, I will report any further attempt to collect before proving the alleged debt by either DVLA or their agents, as fraud by false representation, as defined in the Fraud Act 2006 S.2 and harassment as defined in the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 and will reserve my right to make complaint under the Acts. I also reserve my right to pursue damages as a civil remedy under S3 of the same Act.

 

I therefore require you to immediately recall the alleged debt from Moorgate Debt Recovery and to refrain from any further attempt at collection until and unless you have proved liability in the County Court. I also urge you to cancel the charge forthwith and look forward to your confirmation of this.

Yours Sincerely,

[Asif]

My dad got a long letter today. I've uploaded it.

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2009 by Asif

[patdavies]

Interestingly, they finally admit in writing that the whole acknowledgement letter farce is advisory and not based in statute.

 

I would write back and point out that you refuse their kind offer to settle out of court by way of the LLP fine and look forward to meeting them in Court.

 

(Magistrates' not County)

[crem]

Note their 3rd paragraph from the end:-

 

"Your letter has been forwarded to DVLA..... if the acknowledgement letter is not received after 4 weeks you MUST contact Customer COntact Group on 0870...."

 

Since when could they suddenly make this a "YOU MUST" instruction?

[crem]

I would write back and point out that you refuse their kind offer to settle out of court by way of the LLP fine and look forward to meeting them in Court.

 

I would put in this letter also that you accept as sufficient confirmation that they have acknowledged your letter now and have said that they will forward it to Swansea to remove you as the RK. As they are a department of the DVLA, you do not require, and most certainly will not pursue, any further acknowledgement letter after 4 weeks should it not arrive.

[sickpup]

In the paragraph starting 'The agencies position is clear' they are directly contradicting section 7 interpretations act and the UPU act. I would ask them on what grounds they refuse to comply?

[Asif]

An update:

 

They don't give up!!

 

My dad got a letter today from 'Home Collection Services Limited'. Basically they say that they are part of the Moorcroft Group and since my dad has not reached an agreement with Moorcroft Debt Recovery Limited they are writing to chase this up. Same old crap of he should contact them and pay the £80 penalty charge or face court which could result in a £1,000 fine etc etc

 

Do I bother writing to the DVLA again?!!

[bedlington83]

This is now harassment IMO. You've made it clear to DVLA that you dispute that your dad owes the money. They shouldn't be chasing disputed debt. I'd write to them threatening them with legal action if they don't stop harassing you for money you do not owe

[Conniff]

As this is in excess of eight months in the running now, it is obvious that the DVLA knows they will get nowhere in court or they would have done it by now.

 

I would not respond to any more mail. You could let them know that you consider the matter closed one final time, but should stick to the no more letters after that.

[mariefab]

In the DVLA's letter of 3rd March it states:

 

'With regard to your case, the last licence for the vehicle was REFUNDED on 30 April 2008...'

 

Did your Dad receive an unexpected cheque from the DVLA in May 2008?

If not, who did?

I thought that only the vehicle keeper or motor traders could apply for a vehicle tax refund.

 

I would ask the DVLA; to whom did they pay this refund.

 

As they continue the above quoted paragraph with,

 

'... and as no immediate licence application or SORN declaration was made and no disposal notification has been recived, a Late Licencing Penalty was issued to you on 5th July 2008.'

 

I would think that they would be obliged to tell you.