Arrow/Shoos claimform - old MBNA debt - settled by Tomlin - drydens now write saying pay us not Arrows?

[toxicdebt]

Finally received not one but TWO DIFFERENTLY dated copies of my CCA today. They have both been signed by me. (i only have ever had one card)

 

Can anyone tell me if they seem enforceable?

 

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s284/makum101/CCA1Fronta.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s284/makum101/CCA1Back.jpg

 

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s284/makum101/CCA2Fronta.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s284/makum101/CCA2Back.jpg

 

They look like Microfiche copies to me, which if so, I assume are not presentable in court?

 

I also received a copy of the latest terms and conditions and my latest statement with the usual please contact us if you need to blah blah.

Edited January 14, 2009 by toxicdebt
added info

[Fangio of the nineties]

Wow !....not one but two......are those really genuine ?

 

Cos if they are I think you might want to have a chat with the fraud squad...

 

not been thru it in any huge detail but on CCA2front..it seems to have been signed and excecuted by them on the 10th july 2002...

 

Your signature is dated 28/7/02

 

Have i missed something or are they really trying to pretend that they executed your signed document 18 days before you signed it ?

 

Something is not right... are you sure of the dates ?

 

FOTN

[toxicdebt]

Yep. the date i signed was the 28th jul 2002 on the second one (I signed the first one on 25/06/2002).

 

I thought that was weired too. My address was printed on so i suspect that they posted it out. Maybe they sent the second pre signed and executed after i had sent in my first one in June 2002. Im not sure of the legalities either. Why did they do the second one at all?

Edited January 14, 2009 by toxicdebt
added info

[Fangio of the nineties]

Asiude from my last post

other issues

 

title not strictly correct --- missing the word "card"

nothing to connect the sig page and the prescribed terms

Prescribed terms not within "4 corners of the agreement"

no reference on the front to any t&C's on the back

reference numbers ---the JAQ no's on front of agreements different...if you've only one card they can't both be right...

 

FOTN

[toxicdebt]

Prescribed terms not within "4 corners of the agreement"

 

Are the prescribed terms not on the back?

[supasnooper]

Hi toxic,

 

What a rare sight - two agreements.

 

As you've said - the second agreement came back with your name & address printed on and you've signed and returned it, so they must have two agreements.

 

It will be up to MBNA to prove in court that the front and back scans are of the same document to be enforcable.

 

Be mindful that MBNA may still have the original agreements as these are copies of microfiches.

[Fangio of the nineties]

Are the prescribed terms not on the back?

 

 

yes they are... or they could be provided they can prove that that was actually the back of the agreement..

 

BUT.... and perhaps another cagger can confirm..

 

within the 4 corners" i take to be somewhere between the title and the sig box... not necessarily on the same page but certainly before the sig box..

 

there's nothing on the front to draw your attention to them ... nothing to confirm you've read or seenn the t&c's overleaf...

 

so as far as i'm vconcerned thats outside the 4 corners...

 

can anyone clear this up ?

 

FOTN

[supasnooper]

Have a read of the thread posted below written by steven4064 on Consumer Credit Agreements.

 

I certainly wouldn't argue against him on the intricacies of Consumer Credit Agreements.

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements.html

[toxicdebt]

Ive just noticed that on the back (both backs) section 1.4b states that "

Blah blah blah except where mentioned in section 2.4, 3.5 and 3.6"

 

I cant see any section 3.5 or 3.6. The last one is 2.4!

 

Does this make it unenforceable or possibly improperly executed?

 

Also would the blatant fact that the CCA2 (front) was signed and dated by them before I signed and dated it, make any difference?

[Fangio of the nineties]

don't think it matters...i think the prescribed terms are contained in 1 & 2.. the box below "loss and misuse of card" refers you to other t&c's elsewhere..

 

Still have a problem with the dates though..

if these docs are correct then

on 26/6 you signed the application form

on 27/6 the executed it.

THEN

on 10/7 the then executed a blank agreement without your sig and sent it to you..

18 days later

on 28/7 you signed it and returned it to them..

 

Sorry, but i simply cannot believe they signed that before you did..

from their point of vie i can't see why they'd need a 2nd agreement..

 

and even if they did i can't imagine that they'd sign it befotre you...

 

so either its a mistake on the dates.. or its a cut and paste job ?

 

can you remember signing 2 application forms for the same account ?

 

FOTN

[toxicdebt]

Reading the examples thread linked above in post 24 http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-2.html

It states that these missing terms DO make it unenforceable...

"

this document is improperly executed and not in compliance with S61(1)© CCA, the reasons?

 

Look at clause 1.5 (B)

 

where are the exceptions stated? clause 2,.4 . 3.5 and 3.6? they aint there so all the terms were not easily legible when the agreement was signed

"

On both of my docs the dates were signed in my handwriting. I cant remember receiving two but my memory is not good and it IS my handwriting.

 

I also found this on page one of the same thread, post No 18. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements.html

"To satisfy a section 77-79 request, creditors must supply the original terms of the agreement. Section 11(g) SI1983/1557 states even if an agreement has been modified the creditor must supply a document embodying the original terms when requested under s77-79."

All I got was Current T&C's

 

Can someone clarify.

 

Here are my CCA fronts (both) with the dates as filled in by me...

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s284/makum101/CCA1Frontwithdate.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s284/makum101/CCA2Frontwithdate.jpg

Edited January 15, 2009 by toxicdebt

[angel_1]

HIYA toxic

 

am subbing as ive very similar info sent to me on my mbna threads,

 

also i can see some code numbers in the far bottom left hand side, not sure if mbna come here to check out and could identify you, pls go to your scans and hide that info on the front of your copies

 

will catch up later but good luck for now

 

laters angel x

[toxicdebt]

After much study i have narrowed my questions down thus (leaving the big question of why i have two CCA's and one was executed before I signed it)...

 

1) The prescribed terms and my signature are not on the same side of the two sided form. Does this make it unenforceable or improperly executed given that there is no link from one side to the other?

 

2) On the rear, section 1.4b referrs to conditions in sections that are not on the form. Does this make it unenforceable / improperly executed?

 

3) The terms and conditions i was sent were a simple printout of their current ones. Does the fact I have not received the original T&C's enable me to place in dispute under a section 77-79 request Section 11(g) SI1983/1557 ?

 

4) The date stamp on the first is not legible. The date on the second one is 17 days before I signed the form. Does this make any difference to its enforceability?

 

5) Im thinking of sending a request under the CPR rules for an exact copy due to the confusion of receiving two different ones under sec 78. Would this be advisable?

 

Many thanks in advance.

Edited January 16, 2009 by toxicdebt

[toxicdebt]

I also received a sheet of my particulars (link below). This has yet another different JAQ number and is dated a full 18 days before my first CCA was signed by me. This list must have been collated after contact with myself as it has all my details correctly in place such as my employer etc.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s284/makum101/Listofstuff1.jpg

 

Somethings not right with this lot. Could it be that the CCA's are forged with my signature and dates lifted from MBNA cheques?

 

My list of questions still remains the same...

 

1) The prescribed terms and my signature are not on the same side of the two sided form. Does this make it unenforceable or improperly executed given that there is no link from one side to the other?

 

2) On the rear, section 1.4b referrs to conditions in sections that are not on the form. Does this make it unenforceable / improperly executed?

 

3) The terms and conditions i was sent were a simple printout of their current ones. Does the fact I have not received the original T&C's enable me to place in dispute under a section 77-79 request Section 11(g) SI1983/1557 ?

 

4) The date stamp on the first is not legible. The date on the second one is 17 days before I signed the form. Does this make any difference to its enforceability?

 

5) does the fact I have two CCA's make it unenforcable?

 

6) I'm thinking of sending a request under the CPR rules for an exact copy due to the confusion of receiving two different ones under sec 78. Would this be advisable?

 

Many thanks in advance.

Edited January 16, 2009 by toxicdebt

[Muffintop]

Hya toxic

 

Subbed to your thread, you may learn a lot by taking a read through mine I am just a step away from where you are.. muffintop v mbna my agreement is missing essential heading ie 'card' the terms and conds was a bit of an issue for me to get my head round as these are different from PRESCRIBED TERMS AND CONDITIONS this was thrashed out on my thread.. by a couple of wise cagger,s by the way you have some very experienced people with you on this thread..

 

I am now into my 3rd month of not paying mbna and putting account in dispute.. received some print off terms and conds as well which are obviously current as the charges they incur are 12.00.. back when we took out the cards it was 25.00 do you remember?

 

may be worth you sticking me and angel and sunflower so we can compare notes. I have received letter from Rma today risk management alernatives you will prob get the same.

 

muffintop

[toxicdebt]

Hi Muffintop

 

Many thanks for your reply. Ive read your thread now and its helped me understand my current position a little better. I think I should send a letter to MBNA placing the account in dispute but not sure what grounds I should include(or if I have to give a reason??)

 

Imconfused by the fact i have been sent two CCA's both signed and dated by me a month apart back in 2002, but the second executed by them 17 days before I signed it! So i think I'll wait a little to see if anyone can offer info on this. I have looked around the forums but cant find anyone who has had two.

 

I work in IT and have a lot of kit here, and after much blowing up and mucking about with opacity's etc. i do believe the baacs ARE actually the back of the front. EG. each CCA is a two sided document.

 

I found it really interesting to read Sunflower's comments regarding the missing conditions; that the prescribed terms refers to condition 3.5 & 3.6. Like you I received a printed copy of the CURRENT T&C's - which I didn't even bother scanning and posting but they do referr to the new £12 penalty - and there is no mention of condition 3.5 or 3.6. This is what interests me the most. So my take on mine, yours and sunflowers (which are very similar) is this...

 

* Title is incorrect (missing the word 'CARD').

 

* The prescribed terms are on the back, however referrs to 3.5 & 3.6 which are not on the page at all. Nor do the current T&C's refer to these two conditions. (still waiting to see if anyone can confirm this makes it unenforcable in court)

 

* We have not received a copy of the ORIGONAL T&C's which i think is a requirement of the CCA request, but again need conformation from someone with better experience

 

* there is no link on the front to the back page. I thought there had to be to make it enforcable

 

On top of that I have two agreements both signed by me but one a month after the other and exececuted (signed by them) before I signed it. Which has confused me no end.

 

I'll draft a 'account now in dispute' letter in a few days after reading up more and post it up here to see if its OK.

 

again thanks for pointing me to your thread Muffintop It's been a great help. If you have any further comments please let me have them.

Edited January 18, 2009 by toxicdebt

[Muffintop]

Toxic, get a copy of the cca or probably the application form they have sent you on your thread for people to check out. use photobucket and post it up with your personal details and the barcode if theres one blanked out. The real experts on here can then take a look at it for you. There is letters of dispute templates on here u can use, if you cant find it on my thread, guzzles or sunflowers then ask me and I will post it up, sub to all their threads they can all help you. Im not that up on things as much as other people so make sure you get a general overview of what people say and dont just take what I say as gosple. Its just my view and opinion.

[toxicdebt]

Hi Muffin top. I did post them (page 2 post 26) but here they are again

 

Finally received not one but TWO DIFFERENTLY dated copies of my CCA today. They have both been signed by me. (i only have ever had one card)

 

Can anyone tell me if they seem enforceable?

 

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s284/makum101/CCA1Fronta.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s284/makum101/CCA1Back.jpg

 

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s284/makum101/CCA2Fronta.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s284/makum101/CCA2Back.jpg

 

They look like Microfiche copies to me, which if so, I assume are not presentable in court?

 

I also received a copy of the latest terms and conditions and my latest statement with the usual please contact us if you need to blah blah.

[Fred Bassett]

After much study i have narrowed my questions down thus (leaving the big question of why i have two CCA's and one was executed before I signed it)...

 

1) The prescribed terms and my signature are not on the same side of the two sided form. Does this make it unenforceable or improperly executed given that there is no link from one side to the other?

 

2) On the rear, section 1.4b referrs to conditions in sections that are not on the form. Does this make it unenforceable / improperly executed?

 

3) The terms and conditions i was sent were a simple printout of their current ones. Does the fact I have not received the original T&C's enable me to place in dispute under a section 77-79 request Section 11(g) SI1983/1557 ?

 

4) The date stamp on the first is not legible. The date on the second one is 17 days before I signed the form. Does this make any difference to its enforceability?

 

5) Im thinking of sending a request under the CPR rules for an exact copy due to the confusion of receiving two different ones under sec 78. Would this be advisable?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

The illegible date stamp is 27 JUN - that's all it could be.

 

Fred

[toxicdebt]

Hi Fred.

 

but why do I have two and the second one was dated by them before I dated it. They signed 10 Jul and I signed it 27 Jul

[toxicdebt]

Oopz Duplicated post.

Edited January 19, 2009 by toxicdebt
Duplicated post

[Fred Bassett]

Hi Fred.

 

but why do I have two and the second one was dated by them before I dated it. They signed 10 Jul and I signed it 27 Jul

 

I've got no idea I'm afraid, but as usual with MBNA it's best to assume that something dodgy is going on.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[toxicdebt]

Thanks Fred.

 

One more question for any of you kind informed GAGers...

 

My ballance is over £8500, am I right in thinking this can not go through the small claims court as its over £5000, and if MBNA took me to court it would be 'Fast Track' which would leave me liable for all the costs if I loose? Any idea how much the average costs are in cases like this? (i have done some reading but dont seem to be able to put my finger on it.

[toxicdebt]

Is this reply OK before I send it?

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of an agreement which is illegible, and your company’s current Terms and conditions. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is now in default under the act.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the properly executed Agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

1. The document or part of is not legible.

Regulation 2 states:

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the .

 

2. The alleged agreement(s) refers to terms and conditions listed on a separate document. This document (original terms and conditions) was not sent.

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

To satisfy a section 77-79 request, creditors must supply the original terms of the agreement. Section 11(g) SI1983/1557 states even if an agreement has been modified the creditor must supply a document embodying the original terms when requested under s77-79..

 

3. Your company have sent two agreements both dated. However one was executed signed and dated a whole 17 days before my alleged signature was added to it. This agreement is in addition to the first dated a whole month earlier.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

(a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

As you have failed to comply with a Statutory Request for a true copy of the said Agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, and failed to provide some of the documentation requested, consequentially, any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS. Furthermore I shall Counter-Claim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a Statutory Notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. This includes the following

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

Harassment

I have no intention of discussing this in any form other than in writing.

 

 

Please note, there is only an implied license under Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore, take note that I revoke license under Common Law for your Employees or Agents or Representatives to visit me at my property and, if any of the above does so, your Company will be liable to Damages for a Tort of Trespass and Civil Action will be taken.

 

Legal Action

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit, and take such legal action for any of the following infringements of my civil liberties – Court action will be any or all of the following - Harassment, Distress and Trespass and any other unlawful activity that you see fit to engage in.

 

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a legible True copy of the agreement including all other necessary documentation as specified within the act, and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues.

 

Yours faithfully

[Muffintop]

It looks ok to me did you modify it from templates library? I know that the experts on here state that less written is more, probably so you dont say the wrong thing I guess and keep to the chase. Im not sure about listing out the things that your trying to highlight or whether I would have just put them in the body of the letter, did you disclose your whole hand about what they hadnt complied with, I know on my thread someone, banker I think suggested keep some things close to your chest to disclose in court. Have you requested a proper Subject Access Request yet? under data protection asking for everything they hold on you and enclosing payment for ten pounds, a postal order... unsigned of course and sent recorded del

 

Can someone more experienced than me advised toxic know he is having trouble getting advice and is getting a bit stressed.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Muffintop
added something else