can't imagine that any of them will allow a visit for a personal inspection...and it seems to me that they only like going to court when they think their claim will not be defended. If they really did have the original docs then i can't see why they wouldn't just say so, and produce a decent copy.. the fact that they don't do that suggests to me that they don't have their house in order and will have to rely on threats to succeed. Just for a second... put yourself in their shoes... what would you do... The only other explanation is that the dept chasing the dept don't actully know whether or not they do still hold the paperwork and are trying to bluff it out until another dept produces it ...or not.. we'll see... might be helpful to know from other caggers whether they can succeeed in court with only a "copy" document.. FOTN

I'm still trying to dispute the cca response, though they are ignoring that and continue with the letters and 'phone calls. I was intending to write and ask them outright to confirm the following. 1. whether they still in fact held the original document, and if they did why it is not possible for them to send a legible and complete copy of it. 2. If they do not still hold the original document, how can they satisfy me that this is a true copy of it, bearing in mind that there seems to be nothing to show that the two pages are related to each other let alone the original.. havn't done it yet, but it's on my mind.. so far as i can see then their reply will be binding on them.. I suspect though that they'll refuse to co-operate and insist that they've sent all that they're required to... to my mind that will show me they are on a sticky wicket and have nothing that will stand up in court.. So far as i am aware, copies of cca are not enforceable .. they will need the original... If there is this much hassle in getting a copy of the original (rather than what is obviously a copy of a fiche or a copy of a copy) then i suspect that they're stuffed.. I'll keep you posted.. thanks for the interest... i've had a quick look at your thread, but i'm not really learned enough to offer you an opinion... other than from what i've seen the unconneced t&c's appear to fail the legibility test.. good luck FOTN

Pelham, You're right ! reverse is upside down from the bleed through -- was worried that this was my scanning to post it but i've checked what they've sent and you're right... so things are not quite as they contend.. Late Charges are £20 or £15 for a returned cc cheque.. which is pre regs but i think i've seen others at this time higher - so whether that is another anomaly i'm not sure.. As for interest I'm not sure this was a 0% account originally... and inactive for a while.. can't seem to find any really old statements.. but as with others as soon as i was at my limit the % rapidly climbed so i had no hope of making any impact on the capital.. I'm not sufficiently bright to decipher whether what i was charged was what was due i'm afraid ... but i'll see if i can find an old statement.. FOTN

Thanks Pelham... i'll wade thru the custard and post the result when i have a mo.... in the meantime all those with Cap1 probs may want to look at Lexis thread ... post no 480 here.. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/172543-just-recieved-signed-capital-24.html#post2025635 I think there may be more safetey in numbers FOTN

Lexis, i think thats a cracking idea.. can you count me in ? just let me know whats required.. I think there's probably some more suport from others on my thread too.. i'll post a link..if thats ok.. We may also consider pressing their local MP... from what i can see there seems to be a recognition that CC debt is an issue that must be dealt with... hence the ministry of justice liscensing all these "debt counsellors" that have sprung up on the back of what CAG has been doing for free.. Also of course... banks behaving badly are an easy target right now.. and no doubt likley to be the subject of further regulation..which basically means more jobs for constituents in Nottingham to ensure they comply.. worth a thought.. FOTN FOTN

Ah.. so the TCC is a bit of a red herring then.. it seems despite the prominence they give it to have no significance if the prescribed terms are there.. Still need to find a snag with this paperwork.. FOTN

I think Cambo needs some advice on whether his creditors can enforce these debts.. anyone have the link to the CCA request letter.. thats seems a good place to start FOTN

subbing... FOTN

It's signed by MBNA in the top left corner of the 2nd scan next to a date stamp... not looked at the small print.. FOTN

Hi all, I take Pelhams point, but I'm happy to see others post their agreements here... just so long as they are similar...ie: Cap 1 of the same sort of vintage.. I do think there's something to be gained by comparing them.. f'rinstance.. mine has under "total charge for credit" at the time this agreement is made £1533.42 Comprising interest in the sum of: £1533.42 and thats all -- no reference as to the amount borrowed or any term or any apr etc..this is given some prominence in the agreement and conflicts with other terms.. but am i to assume that that is the total of their charges ? I notice that this clause is different/expanded in other agreements.. anyone have a view ? FOTN

trying it this way.. seeing if this is a better image.. http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj404/fangio/cap1agFE.jpg

Those with similar agreements.. can you post them up here ? lets put our heads together and pull them apart... FOTN

Sorry all, been distracted with the task of trying to earn a living... in the meantime i've had further correspondence from Ellie... but no change in their position and a default notice ... so it looks like they are pressing on.. not kept any old statements so can't compare interest rates etc..I'll try and scan better images for scrutiny... FOTN

Hi all, I've had more calls from MBNA / AEGIS than i can count... last weekend I had a particularly determined attempt from someone called "Craig" at one point both my mobile and home line ringing by Craig...i felt under seige... Whilst not exactly menacing, he was rude and threatening kept talking over me, I put the 'phone down and he rang again.. ultimately sounding more reasonable.. there were a number of unusaul numbers used .. for the record these were.. 07780870570 07785276206 Anyone else heard fron Craig ? FOTN

Thanks snooper,,, that's the mst helpful thread i've seen ! FOTN

Ellen, can't see your cca image, can you post it up or photobucket it... wouldn't mind a comparison with mine.. FOTN

Thanks car... in my industry a certified copy is generally a photocopy of the original stanped and signed by a solicitor as being a "true copy of the original"...in this instance a true copy is an exact copy and the solicitor certifying it must have seen the original to certify it.. are the same standards applied here... as elsewhere a "true copy" is neither true nor a copy..in the accepted sense.. sorry to be pedantic.. FOTN

hi, can anyone clear up the question of whether copy documents are sufficient for court action or whether the creditor must have the original to succeed in court ? fotn

FOTN

Toxic, that looks fine in my view.. FOTN

Hallas.. post it up.. i've just had some stuff thru from capone myself... happy to compare notes.. Rory, I had the same response they just sent current t&c's ... i disputed... they then sent another ... which appears to be an enforceable agreement... I've serious doubts as to whether it is a document that i signed,,but it couild be a first for Cap 1 ! take a look at it on my thread if you've the time.. grateful for an opinion.. as i need grounds to dispute it.. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/178832-cap-one-agreement-recieved.html FOTN

Wow, ! I've finally found the Cap 1 crowd...I'm having some fun with Ellie Renshaw myself...in response to my cca request they tried to fob me off with a current t&c's...obviously this triggered the dispute letter.. and to be fair they did stop calling for a while... but now they're back.. and Ellie has Kindly sent me a signed copy of my cca.. Trouble is.. i'm sure it's hookey, and has been cobbled together from other docs ... there are odd "ghost" images of a bleed from the other side of the document which just don't add up.. It also had printed my name and address on it -- something i can never recall signing or seeing.. I need to dispute it but wouldn't mind the opinion of those who've seen more of these than me.. my thread here..I'v a couple of other caggers TOXIC, tracy, etc having their own battles with mbna etc ..who have been helpful.. ut i've not come across anyone yet who has had quite the same paperwork as me.. sorry to highjack.. but all opinions gratefully recieved.. link here... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/178832-cap-one-agreement-recieved.html FOTN

Toxic.. Banker has just replied on my cap 1 thread... the info on the subject of responses to cca requests could well clear things up for you.. take a look at the link he gives... further down the page is a post by peterbard which has a great letter highlighting the issues... FOTN

Thanks BRW.. From what i can understand this gives me scope to dispute the validity of their response on the grounds that there are omissions (as evidenced by the bleed thu)... I'm pretty certain that thye sig page they have supplied has been condensed from other docs too.. but i can't see clear evidence of that on what they've sent.. I can't ever remember signing a doc looking like that and it's layout seems to stray from the normal too.. that and the fact they've got 2 bar-codes on it leads me to suspect it's hookey..but i can't be sure.. i think my only way forward is to continue the dispute till i have a proper copy of all of the agreement.. do you know any one who has sililar paperwork of this vintage (2005) ? I'd like to see how they've got on.. thanks again..your reply will also be of help to Toxic and the others taking an interest in this thread... FOTN

Toxic.. IMHO this should be your plan. from your post:- 1) The prescribed terms and my signature are not on the same side of the two sided form. Does this make it unenforceable or improperly executed given that there is no link from one side to the other? 2) On the rear, section 1.4b referrs to conditions in sections that are not on the form. Does this make it unenforceable / improperly executed? 3) The terms and conditions i was sent were a simple printout of their current ones. Does the fact I have not received the original T&C's enable me to place in dispute under a section 77-79 request Section 11(g) SI1983/1557 If iot were me i'd confine the argument to whether they have properly responded to your cca request - whilst that is still disputed it buys you time..whether the agreement is enforceable or not (and i don't think it is) is impossible to judge until you have all the info they are required to produce... and their response clearly falls short of their obligations.. with hindsight the legibility issue on that single date looks a bit weak... but your other points are good. fistly to have correctly responded i think they needed to have sent the original t&c's in force at the time you entered into the agreement...they haven't -- so your request remains outstanding and the account in dispute.. secondly, the rear section 1,4b referes to t&c's which are not included...so again their response is incomplete and not sufficient to satisfy your request. Thirdly, there appears nothing to connect the front of the form to what they claim is the back. Could they please point out how they are connected so that you can be sure that the rear of the form contains part of your agreement and not any other. Lastly, thery have sent you 2 documents (both incomplete) but both they contend are your cca... for the avoidance of doubt can they confirm which is the "true copy" and which they would rely on in the case of any future action by eitrher party.. Whilst these issues remain unresolved, there is clearly uncertainty and dispute between you. I'd leave the issue of the dates for later on -- as i've said before i think this could really help you in a court room (if it ever gets to that - which i doubt)...I wouldn't be in any rush to cpr them -- you never know they might just come up with something.. and if your circs are anything like mine ... what we really need is time... good luck and keep us posted.. FOTN