Hire Purchase - Rejection of Goods

[steven4064]

TS are talking out of their backsides - if it is unenforceable then they cannot get an enforcement order, that's what 'unenforceable' means

 

Have you posted the agreement anywhere so we can take a look?

[legalpickle]

TS are talking out of their backsides - if it is unenforceable then they cannot get an enforcement order, that's what 'unenforceable' means

Steven, I suggest you read the OP's post again:

Local T/S have stated the agreement may not be enforceable and this was mentioned to the finance company by T/S who stated "It might not be, but we can always get an enforcement order if that be the case"

The OP states that TS mentioned to the finance company that the agreement may not be enforceable and the finance company stated "It might not be, but we can always get an enforcement order if that be the case"

 

You're right on one thing though, the finance company are talking out of their backsides. If it's unenforceable and enforcement order can't be obtained.

[Hobbie]

I dont have the agreement to hand.

 

The finance company, trading standards, and the OFT are all saying an enforcement order can be applied for if the company can justify the application.

 

With the above now in mind, I'm unsure if it is the case concerning enforcement. We merely want them to come collect the vehicle that has NEVER worked since day one, yet we've continued to pay for it.

 

Part of the agreement which makes it unenforcable is the two copies aren't the same, and have actually been modified AFTER we signed and re-dated to suit them, then re-posted to our address.

[legalpickle]

Hi Hobbie,

 

Where are you up to in this? If you need any help, please post the updates and I'll try to help.

[Hobbie]

legalpickle,

 

It is still ongoing, but slowly progressing.

 

Current situation:

 

Complaint still with the FOS who have requested full disclosure of information from the finanace company, but have yet to pass any comment.

 

The finanace company are now stating that they'll accept return of the vehicle in a full and final settle of the finance agreement.

 

We are more than happy to return to them the vehicle, but would also like to know if we can claim back any money.

 

As we've had to keep the vehicle fully comprehensively insured and taxed throughout plus continue to pay the monthly payments. Can any of this be claimed back from them?

[legalpickle]

legalpickle,

 

It is still ongoing, but slowly progressing.

 

Current situation:

 

Complaint still with the FOS who have requested full disclosure of information from the finanace company, but have yet to pass any comment.

 

The finanace company are now stating that they'll accept return of the vehicle in a full and final settle of the finance agreement.

 

We are more than happy to return to them the vehicle, but would also like to know if we can claim back any money.

 

As we've had to keep the vehicle fully comprehensively insured and taxed throughout plus continue to pay the monthly payments. Can any of this be claimed back from them?

Firstly, I would always recommend having all documents of complaint proofed by somebody who is not biased to the matter. It may be that you have done an excellent job, but I can't count the amount of complaints or court actions that have been thrown out because the consumer has not had it proofed by somebody who is not biased to the matter - which would have most likely rectified the problems.

 

I have been responsible for issuing over 400 court claims (having lost 3) and still have everything proofed by somebody who isn't biased to the matter.

 

Secondly, yes! They are liable for all your losses and you shouldn't accept a penny less than all your losses plus compensation for aggravation and stress, which the FOS would award.

 

How far is it in the FOS procedure? Has it been allocated to an Adjudicator yet?

[Hobbie]

legalpickle,

 

Thanks for your quick reply! truly appreicated.

 

How would you suggest we get the documents proofed, and by which type of person would you recommend?

 

It was with the "Case Worker Team" awaiting for an adjudicator to become available, advised it can take upto 3 month but usually much quicker.

 

It's odd in one sense, the finance company refused to accept the vehicle was faulty or accept the vehicle back, even until the point the FOS was involved, the finance company still wasn't interested. Until such point the FOS requested all information from them, then the tune suddenly changed, and are trying the damn hardest to get the vehicle back, and have even suspended payments.

[legalpickle]

legalpickle,

 

Thanks for your quick reply! truly appreicated.

No problemo.

 

How would you suggest we get the documents proofed, and by which type of person would you recommend?

On the forum. I'd be happy to proof them, as I'm sure others would be.

 

It was with the "Case Worker Team" awaiting for an adjudicator to become available, advised it can take upto 3 month but usually much quicker.

Ha Ha Ha! Not in my experience! If it takes anything less than 3 months you're one of the luckiest people I've ever been in contact with! Some complaints wait 6-8 months before reaching an Adjudicator!

 

It's odd in one sense, the finance company refused to accept the vehicle was faulty or accept the vehicle back, even until the point the FOS was involved, the finance company still wasn't interested. Until such point the FOS requested all information from them, then the tune suddenly changed, and are trying the damn hardest to get the vehicle back, and have even suspended payments.

No it's not odd at all. It's common practice. When they know they'll be rapped they suddenly start being all nicey nicey!

 

I suggest you post a copy of everything you've written in the FOS complaint - minus confidential details - here so that we can see if anything should be added or clarified.

 

In my experience there are some real stupid idiots in the FOS who are not fit for being employed as burger tossers in Mickey D's, much less Adjudicators in the FOS, so everything should be as clear as possible.

[Hobbie]

LP,

 

Everything that we had sent and received to/from the finance company has been forwarded to the FOS as part of our complaint, including CD of each telephone conversation.

 

As alot of information, about 30+ letters over a 8 month period it isn't very practicle to upload each to the site, a good friend of mine is a JP in which I can have him "witness/read" over the forms, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by having the documents proofed.

 

We are extremly keen to return the vehicle to them as that's all we've wanted since the day the vehicle was delivered, when the faults started. But in doing so, if we return it to them surely we've have no physical evidence the vehicle was faulty, as the finance company will be in possession of the vehicle and can then do what ever it wishes. Some people have said to take it to a garage and have it all evidenced, but the costs involved are simply to much the cheapest garage quote was in the hundreds of pounds, and we still have no guarantee that we would be able to claim any of this back.

 

So I don't know if we should hangon to the vehicle until the FOS pull a finger out and reveal its findings, and then hope we are granted a refund plus costs.

 

Or; return the vehicle as per the offer from the finance company who are wording it very wisely "Accept return of the vehicle for full and final settlement of the agreement." And take our chances at court in trying to recover what we've paid for the vehicle to date, plus insurance and road tax.

[legalpickle]

LP,

 

Everything that we had sent and received to/from the finance company has been forwarded to the FOS as part of our complaint, including CD of each telephone conversation.

 

As alot of information, about 30+ letters over a 8 month period it isn't very practicle to upload each to the site, a good friend of mine is a JP in which I can have him "witness/read" over the forms, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by having the documents proofed.

I am not talking about proofing the letters that have been sent and received but the letter of complaint to the FOS and what you actually wrote to the FOS.

 

We are extremly keen to return the vehicle to them as that's all we've wanted since the day the vehicle was delivered, when the faults started. But in doing so, if we return it to them surely we've have no physical evidence the vehicle was faulty, as the finance company will be in possession of the vehicle and can then do what ever it wishes. Some people have said to take it to a garage and have it all evidenced, but the costs involved are simply to much the cheapest garage quote was in the hundreds of pounds, and we still have no guarantee that we would be able to claim any of this back.

Hold on to the vehicle till the FOS reaches Adjudicator stage and discuss that with the Adjudicator. If the Adjudicator agrees that they should pay for a survey, then have it done. The Adjudicator may accept your word as you refused it from the start rather than 2 years later.

 

So I don't know if we should hangon to the vehicle until the FOS pull a finger out and reveal its findings, and then hope we are granted a refund plus costs.

 

Or; return the vehicle as per the offer from the finance company who are wording it very wisely "Accept return of the vehicle for full and final settlement of the agreement." And take our chances at court in trying to recover what we've paid for the vehicle to date, plus insurance and road tax.

If you would return the vehicle "in full and final settlement of the agreement" you wouldn't be able to take court proceedings. If you've taken the matter to the FOS, I don't understand why you're considering court proceedings at this stage, the FOS can decide on compensation and reimbursement.

 

If the FOS decision isn't satisfactory, then go to court, but considering the obvious occurrences I doubt the FOS won't - at least on review - give a satisfactory decision providing the complaint was worded well, or a reworded complaint - which would not restart the wait - is lodged.

[Hobbie]

Legal P.

 

Again thanks for your advice conerning this, more so specifically regarding returning the vehicle to them under the terms "full and final" I thought that to be the case, but you have confirmed it.

 

I'll dig out the original complaint form we sent to the FOS last year (c.November) and post how the complaint is worded against the company.

 

We will await the outcome of the adjudicator's decision concerning the vehicle, and trying to get some (hopefully all) of the money back paid to date.

 

Is it worth writing to the finance company rejecting the offer until the FOS have made a decision, or offering to return it to them if all amounts paid is returned? Or in your opinion would it not be worth to just leave the offer until a decision is made and not write acknowledging it.

 

Sorry if it sounds confusing, but the matter has gone on all to long now, and just thinking about it is stressing me out

[legalpickle]

Legal P.

 

Again thanks for your advice conerning this, more so specifically regarding returning the vehicle to them under the terms "full and final" I thought that to be the case, but you have confirmed it.

 

I'll dig out the original complaint form we sent to the FOS last year (c.November) and post how the complaint is worded against the company.

 

We will await the outcome of the adjudicator's decision concerning the vehicle, and trying to get some (hopefully all) of the money back paid to date.

 

Is it worth writing to the finance company rejecting the offer until the FOS have made a decision, or offering to return it to them if all amounts paid is returned? Or in your opinion would it not be worth to just leave the offer until a decision is made and not write acknowledging it.

 

Sorry if it sounds confusing, but the matter has gone on all to long now, and just thinking about it is stressing me out

At present I'd say ignore the offer. I'd want to see what you wrote to the FOS first. If you can post that up here (as an attachment if necessary), after removing confidential information, I'll go through it and make a more informed recommendation.

 

I understand it's stressing you out, but if it's any consolation, this happens even to the most experienced of us!

 

Take a shot of Vitamin W (Whisky) and not the cheap stuff (like Famous Grouse which isn't fit for my toilet!) but a medium priced one (a Dalwhinnie 15 at about £27.50 would be the right medication for such an issue), trust me, it works!

 

If you're not a whisky person then a few cups of wine'll do, something dry red, like a Pinot Noir or Cabernet Sauvignon should do the trick!

 

That'll calm your nerves to deal with this, that's my medication!

[Hobbie]

Legal P,

 

I've attached a copy of the complaint form, removing any identifiable information of both myself, dealer, finance company.

 

Thanks

breakdown of complaint.txt

[legalpickle]

Legal P,

 

I've attached a copy of the complaint form, removing any identifiable information of both myself, dealer, finance company.

 

Thanks

I'll PM a mod to get it approved so I can see it. Is that the text you wrote for the form?

 

You can include details of the finance company, just not your own details or reference numbers. In fact it would probably be good for people to know the name of the finance company in this case.

[Hobbie]

LP, That is the exact text completed on the FOS complaint form (Of course minus the identifiable information).

 

I'm reserving the company name until the matter is resolved, so not to put an unbiased opinion against them. I don't want someone from the company coming along and reading the post then say i'm bad mouthing them in public, etcetera...

 

Once either the FOS or other competent authority upholds the complaint, I will of course disclose all the details as to the dealer, finance company including names of people. Hope you understand.

 

On the other matter of stress, I've a nice bottle of Glenkinchie

[legalpickle]

LP, That is the exact text completed on the FOS complaint form (Of course minus the identifiable information).

 

I'm reserving the company name until the matter is resolved, so not to put an unbiased opinion against them. I don't want someone from the company coming along and reading the post then say i'm bad mouthing them in public, etcetera...

So what if you bad mouth them after what they've put you through? And stating the name of the finance company alone isn't sufficient information to identify that it was you that said anything. Finally, there nothing in this post that could be considered "bad mouthing", rather asking for advice.

 

Once either the FOS or other competent authority upholds the complaint, I will of course disclose all the details as to the dealer, finance company including names of people. Hope you understand.

I disagree but respect your decision.

 

On the other matter of stress, I've a nice bottle of Glenkinchie

Now we're talking! What year? Please tell me it's one of the very few cask strength Glenkinchie's???

[Hobbie]

So LP, did you get a chance to read over the contents of the attachment on the previous post? - If so, what are your thoughts? (if any)

 

I expect many will disagree, but I appreicate you respecting the decision, I simply don't want to give any information which identifies anyone so not to risk the finance company or other coming across this thread and risking the outcome of any decision.

 

I visited the distillery back in 2003 and bought myself 5 bottles of single 10 year malt 1988. Very fine and smooth

[legalpickle]

So LP, did you get a chance to read over the contents of the attachment on the previous post? - If so, what are your thoughts? (if any)

I'll post later tonight, all being well.

 

I expect many will disagree, but I appreicate you respecting the decision, I simply don't want to give any information which identifies anyone so not to risk the finance company or other coming across this thread and risking the outcome of any decision.

I agree that nothing that identifies you should be provided, but the name of the finance company does not identify you. I'm guessing that there are many people with similar issues with the finance company. I agree that you shouldn't disclose identifying information, but the name of the finance company isn't identifying information. Your choice, I agree to disagree if necessary.

 

I visited the distillery back in 2003 and bought myself 5 bottles of single 10 year malt 1988. Very fine and smooth

Yup, beautiful choice, but 5 bottles not finished in more than 5 years? I'd have finished that within 2 years max!

[Hobbie]

LegalP,

 

I'll look forward to reading your thoughts on it, It'll be good to get the opinion and views from a unbiased person that is outside the situation.

 

I've 4 full bottles left, save it for certain occassions, and hoping to keep them as long as possible =) But I am of course planning on getting a few more. Plus a bottle of talisker 25 year single from the isle of skye... that is a good choice if you get the chance to get some i'd highly recommend it.

[legalpickle]

LegalP,

 

I'll look forward to reading your thoughts on it, It'll be good to get the opinion and views from a unbiased person that is outside the situation.

 

I've 4 full bottles left, save it for certain occassions, and hoping to keep them as long as possible =) But I am of course planning on getting a few more. Plus a bottle of talisker 25 year single from the isle of skye... that is a good choice if you get the chance to get some i'd highly recommend it.

Which bottling? I have a 1975 bottling (costs £350 on The Whisky Exchange) for special occasions. I've also got a Dalwhinnie 1966 36yr (£325) for special occasions & Glenlivet 21year 1948 bottling for VERY special occasions.

 

But for the night caps is Dalwhinnie 15, Balvenie 12 Double Wood, Glenlivet 18 & Macallan 15 Fine Oak. I'm a smooth talker

[Hobbie]

Which bottling? I have a 1975 bottling (costs £350 on The Whisky Exchange) for special occasions. I've also got a Dalwhinnie 1966 36yr (£325) for special occasions & Glenlivet 21year 1948 bottling for VERY special occasions.

 

But for the night caps is Dalwhinnie 15, Balvenie 12 Double Wood, Glenlivet 18 & Macallan 15 Fine Oak. I'm a smooth talker

 

 

I tend to buy mine when visiting the distillery's, its a 2004, don't recall how much I paid at time as of purchases was made.

 

So no, Bells or Jamesons or Paddy Old Irish for you then? lol

[legalpickle]

Ok, I've read through it. It's better than most I've seen but you've not gone through in more detail what you want. I suggest you breakdown here all expenses you've incurred;

- Charges debited from your account including dates they were debited.

- Any other expenses you have incurred.

 

I'll then draft a letter for you to the FOS asking for information to be added to the file.

 

Did you fill in the form, or did you continue on other pages? I always recommend that with the FOS form people fill in "Please see attached." in most sections and then write it in their own words on several pages so as not to be extremely limited for space. Unfortunately space limitation is a reason some complaints fail with the FOS.

 

Also, did you provide a breakdown of all attachments? I recommend writing a list of all documents - and CD's - you attached, explaining their relevance - if this is not clearly obvious - to assist the FOS, because as I've previously said, some of them are not fit to be burger tossers in Mickey D's!

[JonCris]

LP I've just ordered a couple of bottles of single malt direct from the cask from the Chivas Brothers ....what's your opinion?........... also for daily use I drink 10 year old single malt Tobermory? I find it quite smooth & reasonably priced at about £15

[Hobbie]

Ok, I've read through it. It's better than most I've seen but you've not gone through in more detail what you want. I suggest you breakdown here all expenses you've incurred;

- Charges debited from your account including dates they were debited.

- Any other expenses you have incurred.

 

I'll then draft a letter for you to the FOS asking for information to be added to the file.

 

Did you fill in the form, or did you continue on other pages? I always recommend that with the FOS form people fill in "Please see attached." in most sections and then write it in their own words on several pages so as not to be extremely limited for space. Unfortunately space limitation is a reason some complaints fail with the FOS.

 

Also, did you provide a breakdown of all attachments? I recommend writing a list of all documents - and CD's - you attached, explaining their relevance - if this is not clearly obvious - to assist the FOS, because as I've previously said, some of them are not fit to be burger tossers in Mickey D's!

 

The company had charged £25.00 per letter. In total 8, which was placed on the account and also updated our credit file as 1 Month Arrears for total of 5 month, I wrote on a number of occassions to the finance company and eventually I did receive a responce and stated it was a system anomally and all charges we're removed from the account. But our credit file was never changed to reflect this, and still to this date shows that we had 1 month arrears for 5 month, the finance company refuse to accept it is upto them to correct this.

 

Charges to date is the monthly direct debit, collected each month for the fixed amount of £279. No payment missed and account currently upto date, even though we don't agree with it, but they'll only cause more problems if we don't pay.

 

£38 per month insurance we've had to pay as per terms and conditions of the agreement to keep the vehicle fully insured at all time. Vehicle excise licence, I don't recall the exact cost, although it is displayed so can be checked. Plus £110 to pay for a repair because the finance company told us to, and we were never reimburrsed as I was only informed via telephone, and took them at face value, only for the finance company to deny I was promised to be credited for the amount, thus the reason for recording all future calls. (Thank god for VoIP! Simple, and easy to record calls).

 

Each letter send/received was indexed on a seperate sheet, detailing the date received from them.

[legalpickle]

I tend to buy mine when visiting the distillery's, its a 2004, don't recall how much I paid at time as of purchases was made.

 

So no, Bells or Jamesons or Paddy Old Irish for you then? lol

Bells is a curse word where I come from! It's not fit for the toilet!

 

I won't visit the distillery's because I won't be able to stay awake on the way back and need a breathing mask when I sleep!

 

LP I've just ordered a couple of bottles of single malt direct from the cask from the Chivas Brothers ....what's your opinion?........... also for daily use I drink 10 year old single malt Tobermory? I find it quite smooth & reasonably priced at about £15

I've never been a fan of Chivas. For some reason they just don't agree with me. I believe most of their whisky's are blended malt, and I stick with single malt.

 

Tobermory 10 is a decent single malt. I prefer their 12 yr 1995 special bottling or 15 year distillery bottling (that's about £50 which is a bit expensive for a night cap one). But I prefer the real smooth ones. Tobermory has a tinge of peatiness in it. For a cheap end Single Malt that's smooth, I'd go for the Glen Moray Classic which should cost between £12.50 and £19.

 

The company had charged £25.00 per letter. In total 8, which was placed on the account and also updated our credit file as 1 Month Arrears for total of 5 month, I wrote on a number of occassions to the finance company and eventually I did receive a responce and stated it was a system anomally and all charges we're removed from the account. But our credit file was never changed to reflect this, and still to this date shows that we had 1 month arrears for 5 month, the finance company refuse to accept it is upto them to correct this.

Noted. That'll be put in the draft letter I prepare.

 

Charges to date is the monthly direct debit, collected each month for the fixed amount of £279. No payment missed and account currently upto date, even though we don't agree with it, but they'll only cause more problems if we don't pay.

Please list the months and the dates of the month that the payments were debited. I believe you noted that they've stopped taking the monies out of your account, when was this stopped?

 

£38 per month insurance we've had to pay as per terms and conditions of the agreement to keep the vehicle fully insured at all time. Vehicle excise licence, I don't recall the exact cost, although it is displayed so can be checked. Plus £110 to pay for a repair because the finance company told us to, and we were never reimburrsed as I was only informed via telephone, and took them at face value, only for the finance company to deny I was promised to be credited for the amount, thus the reason for recording all future calls. (Thank god for VoIP! Simple, and easy to record calls).

Who was the insurance paid to? Have those payments stopped? Please detail dates the payments were taken out.

 

The £110 repair - do you have a receipt, and did you send this to the FOS? - what date was it paid?

 

Please check how much you spent on the tax disc, and when you paid it.

 

You say you've also insured the vehicle, how much has this cost you? Please breakdown the dates & amounts of the payments.

 

Each letter send/received was indexed on a seperate sheet, detailing the date received from them.

Good.

 

I ask for the dates because the FOS does award interest, so it will get you more money.