H.O.L Test case appeal. Judgement Declared. ***See Announcements***

[summitnear]

Wow what a surprise ,

 

What the judge has has said is if you want an account you have to abide by these onerous terms and we will(the bank) take every opportunity to rip you off . A charter for thieving Banks .

 

as a taxpayer I think the government on my behalf has just lent £50,000,000,000 to these banks ( might have got my 0's mixed up but 50billion is a big number).

 

just an added thought who pays the judge !!!!!!!!!! the taxpayer

 

a double shafting.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Phantom]

Dont you think if they stopped repos people just would not pay?

 

I wouldn't have thought so. If you can afford to pay I believe you will, because at the end of the day at some point people want to own their house, don't they ?

"One more payment and it's mine" That's how I think anyway, so I would always pay my mortgage for that reason alone. With every payment I am a step closer to making it mine.

[The Phantom]

Wow what a surprise ,

 

What the judge has has said is if you want an account you have to abide by these onerous terms and we will(the bank) take every opportunity to rip you off . A charter for thieving Banks .

 

as a taxpayer I think the government on my behalf has just lent £50,000,000,000 to these banks ( might have got my 0's mixed up but 50billion is a big number).

 

just an added thought who pays the judge !!!!!!!!!! the taxpayer

 

a double shafting.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

They will all be out in force at the week-end to celebrate with a round of golf. Weather is supposed to be fine. The judge was probably told nobody will play golf with him anymore if he makes a mistake in his judgement.

Curious how the judgment was supposed to be out in September and then suddenly pops out on the day the big bank bail-out is announced by the government

[banker_rhymes_with]

Curious how the judgment was supposed to be out in September and then suddenly pops out on the day the big bank bail-out is announced by the government

 

It was a good day for them to bury bad news.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[determindator]

Hey, p'raps the bail out is to give the banks money to pay us back! As Sillygirl rightly says we can start to use shops again to help the economy. Think of the feelgood factor across the country and the headlines 'Bank charges are OFT!'

[photoman]

Wow what a surprise ,

 

What the judge has has said is if you want an account you have to abide by these onerous terms and we will(the bank) take every opportunity to rip you off . A charter for thieving Banks .

 

as a taxpayer I think the government on my behalf has just lent £50,000,000,000 to these banks ( might have got my 0's mixed up but 50billion is a big number).

 

just an added thought who pays the judge !!!!!!!!!! the taxpayer

 

a double shafting.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Actually.....

 

The total amount of the bailout is £500 billion...... NOT £50billion !!

 

See my earlier post here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-charges-finance-industry/163239-its-not-50bn-its.html

 

The Government are firstly bailing out the banks by buying £50billion pounds worth of shares in them (the bit that's being lauded as the part nationalisation).

 

Then, they are ALSO underwriting a further £250billion of medium term debts.

ie: acting as a guarantor for the medium term loans the banks have or will take from other banks or foreign investors in the mid term. This bit is to encourage UK banks (or foreign investors) to still lend to other UK banks.

 

On top of this, the Bank of England is also providing a further £200billion by way of upping its special liquidity scheme from the previous level of £100billion, and this will take the form of exchanging risky mortgages for Treasury bonds.

ie: Any banks that have given out mortgage to those who are in danger of defaulting, can exchange such mortgages for a BoE bond. Then if the lender defaults, the bank still gets its' money. This bit is to try to rejuvenate the mortgage market.

 

The total bailout plan is £500billion not £50billion !!

 

Or to put it another way>

 

The potential liability of £500 billion amounts to more than a third of the annual value of the British economy and is approaching the almost £600 billion of total government spending.

 

 

PM

[banker_rhymes_with]

£500 Billion!?!

 

Gulp!

 

I'll have to revise my predictions at this rate! I felt we'd crawl out of this coming Recession, but the next one would be the killer. The one where the Debt Based Economies find they can no longer re-inflate their banking bubbles.

 

Seems the popping noises we can now hear around the World, are all the banking bubbles busting everywhere, and all at the same time.

 

I think this next Recession that we are just falling into now, might just prove to be the one where the bankers cannot pump their banking bubbles back up again, no matter how many Government IOUs they get thrown at them to try and fix the underlying problem.

 

This coming Recession could be the one that proves you can't keep pushing the problem further and further into the future. At some point, as common sense would seem to suggest, the problem grows so large that there will be no getting past it without finding a better solution than bank engineered Debt Based Finance that ultimately only benefits the bankers.

 

I have no idea what the solution is, but going back to ever increasing and absurd levels of Debt, and ever rising levels of Number-Money being created from that Debt (all of it out of thin air by the way) just had to hit the buffers at some stage.

 

That stage could be right now.

 

If so, then right now might be a wise time to get some Pigs and Goats folks, and brush up on your Skills at making things like Pots and Shoes. Soon we'll be bartering Food and Skills again, that's assuming we all come to the same conclusion that Number-Money has no real value. There is nothing there to support it. It was a banking fairy story that just happened to take 320 odd years to play itself out.

 

For those that want a quick 10 minute visual summary of how we ended up in this banking mess, the following Google Video is pretty good:

 

Money as Debt

 

Some of the Quotations shown from very wise and astute people across the ages are particularly sobering.

 

Anyone want to swap a good Pig for a large basket of Apples?

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited October 9, 2008 by banker_rhymes_with
Can't Type or Spell!

[mailmannz]

dont get too excited, 500bil is the upper limit. DOesnt mean thats how much the banks will get.

 

But what this does prove is that Europe flung a sh1t load of sh1t at America for poor management and now the birds have come home to roost and now look at all the problems European banks are having!

 

Mailman

[Penfold92]

that was a great post above Banker, I cannot comment on the economical viewpoint, but from the mortgages viewpoint i can say this...

 

Lenders (if they pass the rate cut across in the first place) will find an alternate way to get it back, whether via arrangement fees or in their increased admin fees etc.

 

Here is what IGroup and First National have said:

 

"Following the coordinated action by Central Banks today, where the Bank of England rate decreased by 0.50% to 4.50%, we can confirm that the Barclays Bank base rate has also been decreased to 4.50%.

 

Whilst our variable rate products and reversionary rates are linked to Barclays Bank base rate, this is currently not a true reflection of funding costs. As it is likely that these conditions will persist for the immediate future, our variable rates published prior to this reduction will be maintained in our new 4108 rate card by adjusting the rate we charge above Barclays Bank base rate. These rates are effective Thursday 9th October 2008. Fixed rates will not be impacted."

 

Basically reducing one end but upping the other..Nice eh?

 

The rate cut will also slow the repos down a bit, but there will be tears in the end as more and more people will find themselves unable to keep up with the escalating prices.

 

The rate cut is dead against what the BOE wanted to do as their concern was the rising inflation rate and so this is (IMHO) a short term sweetner and not any real sort of solution. The Banks lending criteria is what needs to be addressed after all with house prices dropping hardly anyone can get the "good deals" as their loan to values are going up everyday!

 

Oh well change of employment for me and quick...

 

Penfold

Edited October 9, 2008 by Penfold92

[SPROUTY]

OFT Posted this (link) on their web site:

***************************************

9 October 2008

 

Judgment for the second preliminary hearing of the test case has been handed down in the High Court. The Judge has indicated that he will make a declaration that Banks' historic and other non-mainstream account unarranged overdraft charges can be assessed for fairness under the UTCCRs.

 

***************************************

 

So (as we expected) Historic T&Cs will be treated as Modern T&Cs so far as UTCCR are concerned

 

I make that 2-1 to the good guys!

Edited October 9, 2008 by SPROUTY
link not working

[JonCris]

Dont you think if they stopped repos people just would not pay?

 

 

Of course not I'm suggesting the lenders by made to reschedule the loan to an affordable level based on the persons income. Something most if not all refuse to do particularly if they have put the loan into a derivative

[determindator]

Ah Sprouty,

 

Very good news I feel. I was just thinking today how we don't really have a choice as to whether you want a Bank account or not,so they have been given a licence for us to be imprisoned and extorted. On that premise, morally they should not be able to extort and imprison us all. I believe that's unfair. I remember when my Dad bought his wages home in a brown envelope, the insurance man came to the door you put shillings in the meter and paid your council tax at the Council Offices. Now there were alternatives where you could take the bill to any bank with it's giro slip attached and pay cash. Then the robbers said 'we are going to charge you if you don't have a bank account.' Do we all have that experience.

 

Give back our stash of cash!!

[JOSH_IOU]

I wonder why the county court is allowing undue influence from the government to interfere with our personal court cases.

 

I of course refer to so-called Judical independance from government.

[car2403]

I wonder why the county court is allowing undue influence from the government to interfere with our personal court cases.

 

I of course refer to so-called Judical independance from government.

 

The doctrine of the separation of powers is a complete farce and always had been.

 

Until the Judiciary are completely autonomous from the executive and legislature, we will see these injustices continue. That's the way it's meant to be, by the way.

 

With Lord Chief Justice "Whateverhisnameisthesedays" calling the shots in the Judiciary, as well as taking his salary and policitical connotations from the Government, the little man in the street has no chance.

[JOSH_IOU]

why dont you listen to him?

 

Questions for the Lord Chief Justice. Interview by Marcel Berlins.

[patrickq1]

The doctrine of the separation of powers is a complete farce and always had been.

 

Until the Judiciary are completely autonomous from the executive and legislature, we will see these injustices continue. That's the way it's meant to be, by the way.

 

With Lord Chief Justice "Whateverhisnameistheseda ys" calling the shots in the Judiciary, as well as taking his salary and policitical connotations from the Government, the little man in the street has no chance.

 

sad isnt it that a PRIME MINISTER WHO IS UNELLECTED BY THE PEOPLE who can put the country at risk who can endanger all of us and who has almost bankrupted us all should be allowed to make decision on our behalf without ellective rights we have all walked blindly into this situation without utterence....without voice thank god for CAG we have maybe perhaps a whimper but see what the people can do when we have good honest guidance thank you CAG and all who contribute wether finacial or written help it all counts

patrickq1

[JOSH_IOU]

The way the system works from my point of view a subject must first be brung to claim.

 

Then the judge has the duty to make a judgement. If the system is not used then there will be no need for the doctrine.

 

My point is it must be in essense used as a part of the claim to mean something. Otherwise it is down to the judge to make a judical decision.

[bernie the bolt]

Determindator: I totally agree lets get our money back then spend spend spend what credit crunch

[stonedecroze]

least these seem to be optomistic

 

 

Customers could still reclaim 'unfair' bank charges

[Bookworm]

Well, considering their vested interest, they would say that, wouldn't they?

 

... But as it goes, that's pretty much what I have been saying too, so I am not going to disagree with them too loudly.

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi,

 

Sorry to post this again but here goes.

 

A solicitor has pointed out to me that even if the judgement on the historic terms is that they do not equate to penalties at common law it should not be assumed that business claims now have no legal basis. The solicitor pointed out that the judge hearing the test case has not considered a single business contract or any business terms and conditions during the test case, and so reliance on the judgement would be unjust for business claimants. Any judge would need to consider the contract between the business customer and bank and the business terms and conditions before a fair ruling can be delivered.

 

Any thoughts?

 

TheyrCriminals

[JOSH_IOU]

There are difrent views here mine is.

 

The Solicitor is right.

 

The test case is there to determine personal current account terms and condition cases.

 

However im more than sure the banks would like to try it on and say they are linked.

[Bookworm]

Hi,

 

Sorry to post this again but here goes.

 

A solicitor has pointed out to me that even if the judgement on the historic terms is that they do not equate to penalties at common law it should not be assumed that business claims now have no legal basis. The solicitor pointed out that the judge hearing the test case has not considered a single business contract or any business terms and conditions during the test case, and so reliance on the judgement would be unjust for business claimants. Any judge would need to consider the contract between the business customer and bank and the business terms and conditions before a fair ruling can be delivered.

 

Any thoughts?

 

TheyrCriminals

Well yeah, surely it's obvious, isn't it? The OFT case is specifically about personal accounts, so the test case result doesn't apply to business accounts, in the same way that we have been able to keep on claiming off credit cards since the test case doesn't apply to them. :-?

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Bookworm,

 

It certainly isn't obvious to some who are very confused with this personal/business account issue, further compounded by the courts themselves. The fact that penalties at common law are in question are being interpreted by some judges as extendable to business claims.

 

TheyrCriminals

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Guys,

 

If anyone is interested in the current state of play regarding the bank charges appeal hearing currently being heard in the High Court have a read:

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Bank charges ruling 'was wrong'

 

TheyrCriminals