I Won at Court Today!

[Bailey9]

Hi there,

 

At the end of June I bought a 'confidence giver' pony for my daughter from a dealer. We went to see this pony 4 times and my daughter rode him every time, indoor arena, outdoor arena and she took him out on a small hack.

 

We've had him 2 months and his behaviour has not been as described at all. Even when he is put in his stable just before being tacked up, he will rear over the stable door if he hears another horse passing. I say 2 months as on the 6th Sept his behaviour got worse by cantering off and bucking until he threw my 12 daughter off breaking her 2nd and 3rd verterbrae.

 

I have written a polite letter giving the owners and update on this pony also asking for a full refund, 2wks went by and no reply. Sent another letter stating the sales of goods act and if I don't get a reply in 7 days I will take further action.

 

I have also rang Consumers Direct but was wondering if anyone could offer me any help or has anyone been in this situation.

[barracad]

As you have bought equine from a 'dealer', you are protected under the Sale of Goods Act.

 

If you find your new horse has a problem, making him unsuitable for the purpose you bought him, you're entitled to your money back – even if the dealer denies knowledge.

 

The Act implies certain conditions of sale – your 'statutory rights'.

 

These are:

 

1. The horse must be of 'reasonable' or 'satisfactory' quality – for instance, free of defects such as lameness – unless you have prior knowledge and accept the condition.
   
2. The new horse must be fit for the purpose for which it was generally sold, or any purpose made known at the time of the agreement.
   
3. He must be 'as described'. If your new eight-year-old turns out to be over 18, it's a breach of trading standards.

If one or all of these criteria are not met, you may be entitled to a full refund or the difference in value between the horse you thought you were buying and the one you got.

 

You seem to be on the right tracks, and if the dealer continues to ignore you then you may need to take legal action.

 

Might be a good time now to start thinking about what evidence you have:

• Did you take anybody else with you when you bought the horse who could act as a witness?
  
• Did you get something in writing from the vendor that confirms the horse is what they say he is?

A word of warning: The dealer may offer to take the horse back to sell it on your behalf. Do not accept this offer as you, and not the dealer, could be sued by the next owner if you fail to disclose a problem.

 

Good luck.

[poppynurse]

Did you pay cash or card? I was in a similar position last year and because I paid by credit card the credit card co got involved and I managed to get a refund and return the pony eventually.

It does worry me that you tried him 4 times and he was fine before you bought him. Have you changed his feed or the amount of exercise he gets? Pony's behaviour can change drastically with too much feed/not enough exercise. Or he could simply have been trying it on as they do and found he got away with it. I'm not trying to defend the dealer but they will argue that you tried him out well. Hope your daughter is OK.

[buzby]

I don't believe livestock is covered under SOGA. Further, the dealer can only give his professional opinion as to the suitability, it would be up to the purchaser to ascertain before concluding the deal that it met their needs. Horses have their own minds, and it works independently of the trader. If there was a knowing mis-description (which you would have to prove) then there is a chance to pursue him. However, if he assets he never saw such a problem, and argues it only manifested itself AFTER you got it, then you've no case.

 

I would think any animal would be unsettled in new surroundings to a certain extent. How it will react to change is a great unknown. If after purchase, it proves unsuitable for your purposes, you can always sell it on. But as it isn't a fridge-freezer, I doubt the dealer could be held liable, and if the bad behaviour is progressive this could point to other problems. Sorry to hear about your daughter's injuries and hopefully she'll be young enough to recover, but the easiest way to resolve the matter would be to sell the horse on.

[demon_x_slash]

Actually, we had a 'dog' thread a little while ago, on which the OP was advised to use SoGA to apply for recompense for a very poorly puppy. While I go and trawl for it, here's a report from Which? that states that animals are, indeed, covered under the SoGA - animals are classed as 'goods', which is why bailiffs could potentially take your pets to satisfy debts. If the OP specifically stated that he wanted a steady, stable pony to give confidence to a new rider, then that is what the dealer should have supplied. If the behaviour persists, then the animal is not fit for purpose.

 

Which? Report

 

Edit: Dog Thread (- see chesham's informative posts)

[Bailey9]

Poppynurse - I paid cash for him. Can't believe when I've visited this pony was so different.

 

I have never fed him or stabled him, he is out 24/7. I also put a muzzle on him as I didn't want to section off a paddock incase he needed to run off excess energy.

 

I have also ridden him and I would describe him as being very insecure. I thought this was his new surroundings but every week he would present something else.

 

When I went to see him I asked lots of questions and I made it very clear that my daughter needed a confidence giver. I did ask for a loan for a month but this was refused. They also told me he was 7 and when I received his passport it states he is 5.

[Bailey9]

Thanks demon_x_slash, must have cross posted.

 

I'll read that now.

[Mr lex]

Hi Bailey,

 

Barra is right in that a Horse bought from a dealer is covered by SOGA.

However the worrying thing here is the change in this Pony since you got it home. I am concerned that the pony's reaction to being tacked up may be one of pain. Silly questions first, Does the saddle fit ? Has it (he/she) been re-shod since you got it home.

 

It is just possible that this Pony may have been on 'Bute' and this reaction is due to the drug wearing off ??

 

1st, keep trying the dealer

 

2nd, Maybe get your Vet to have a look over the Pony, the dealer will have a lot to answer for if he has kept the Pony on drugs in order to sell it.

 

3rd, You may want to make contact with Alison Davies

Alison Davies, works for Cheltenham-based Rickerbys solicitors where she specializes in resolving equine disputes.

 

Hope this may be of some help, I'll keep watching

 

Lex

[buzby]

Actually, we had a 'dog' thread a little while ago, on which the OP was advised to use SoGA to apply for recompense for a very poorly puppy. )

 

Must be an English aberration then as livestock can be treated as assets but not 'goods'. Also, a puppy that is poorly is a bit different from a horse that is showing no signs of illness, especially if the previous owner wasn't a breeder. What is one person's liveliness is another's unacceptable behaviour. Either way, it would be far better to sell a beast that in unsuitable than try to invoke 'blame' as a positive outcome is seldom assured.

[demon_x_slash]

If you read the thread on the pup, it was from a breeder, and was unfit to show due to extreme ill health, although bought for that purpose

[buzby]

Ah - that would work!

[hellhasnofury]

Hello,

 

Sorry to jump in but I have just discovered this post and have found it interesting.

 

I bought a horse from this woman about three years ago, paid nearly £3,000 for it. I had known of the horse and seen it for a few weeks around the yard and in the field. It seems to be quiet and sensible. The woman was selling the horse as she was getting divorced. I asked her about the horses history whether it was suitable for my son-in-law to learn to ride on and she told me how great me was. My son-in-law rode me and he was quiet and sensible. So we bought him.

 

The problems started a couple of days later, when we put him in the stable. The horse immediately became demented and out of control. He was nodding violently and was sweating up. I would describe it as something in his head clicked. I have had horses all of my working life so I am very experienced and I have never seen anything like that. I questioned the woman regarding this, she stated oh he does not like being in on his own. ok first alarm bell ringing.

Within a week, he throw and shoe, get him reshod, throw it again, lame as a dog, got the vet he had an abcess in his hoof. Had to stable the horse, he nearly killed me twice, as it was extrememly dangerous to go hear him in the stable, he would not eat or drink and he dropped half his body wait. Had the vet down 5 times to him with constant abcesses in his hoof and eventually had him x-rayed. He had a tumour on the pedal bone, which the vet said could be operated on, with no guarentee of soundness, and that he would have to have 9months in the stable to allow the hoof to grow back.

 

After much deliberation I decided that it would be so cruel to do this to this horse, and I felt that he would not physically or mentally do it. I had to think of the safety of others who may have to deal with him. I had him humanely destroyed. I truely broke my heart.

 

I owned the horse for 8 weeks and rode him once. Those 8 weeks were one of the worst times in my life and I still feel very bitter and angry towards this woman who sold him to me. She knew there was problems with this horse, and never disclosed this to me.

 

I did speak to a solicitor regarding sueing her for my money back, but they just stated buyer beware.

 

Anyway sorry for rambling on

[demon_x_slash]

In your case, HHNF, it may be different: was she a horse dealer, as in the OP's situation, or just selling her own horse (a private sale)? If she was a dealer/trader, then SoGA would cover it; I have a feeling that caveat emptor does apply if the sale was private, as with other goods such as cars. Hopefully someone can clarify or correct this.

[missmoneypenny1]

i have just had exactly the same situation. the problem is that a lot of horse dealers are drugging the horse/pony to sell it. i loaned a horse on the dealers yard for a month!! it was fine until i bought it and it started to rear straight and bolt off, i had his back,teeth tack checked all were fine. i knew something was very not right. i got the vet out to do a blood test and we found traces of a sedative, so there was my prrof. i could have got my money back then but i wasnt letting this poor horse go back to the dealer as i think he had been mistreated. i found a riding instructor on Horses for Sale, Horses for Loan, Ponies for Sale, Equestrian Clearance and Horsesboxes for Sale. who has now got him and really likes him, she is sorting out his problems and making progress. i lost my confiddence with him. the point is its happening all the time and i am sure i will not make the same mistake again. next time ibuy a horse i will have it bloodtested. it may be worth paying fifty pounds to get this done for the pony you have as i am certain it will have been drugged. not all horse dealers are the same but the majority of them are cowboys im afraid. i would never buy off a dealer again.

[poppynurse]

I doubt in this case that any sedatives would show up - it has been several months by the sound of it.

You can either pursue the dealer and hope they will give in (who was it - PM me), or you can sell it on, perhaps to someone more experienced who could cope with him. How big is he? Did you pay a lot for him?

[missmoneypenny1]

bear in mind that this could take a lot of time trying for a refund, is the deaker willing to swap the pony? if not I would try and put an advert out and be honest that there are some issues and the type of person he needs, this is what I did and i did find somebody but also did loose some money, I had to do this because the horse was costing me a fortune on livery and the more i held out trying to sort something out the more it was costing me in livery, so I sold him cheaper and saved shelling out livery fees. its as broad as it is long really. also i couldnt bear to see him go back to the dealer which I believe mietreated him and that was why he was like this in the first place. he has a great home now and is enjoying hacks out which is what he needed to calm him down. it may be that the pony just hasnt settled with you. did you get a vetting done? it could be medical? i would prob put it down to his head though to be honest. what breeding in the pony?

[Mr lex]

As a general rule of thumb - if a horse/pony has ended up at a dealers yard then it is either very young/green, is much older than it is portrayed to be, or it has a problem!

 

They dealers invariably buy them at auction - why would you sell a 'good' horse by that method unless you were seriously needing to sell urgently ( I have to say, hand on heart, that I have been in that situation and have put three very genuine fillies to auction purely because I lost my grazing without notice and cried for days afterwards! I'll never forgive the bas***d that forced me in that situation! They were sold far below what they were worth and someone had a seriously good buy and I hope that the fillies were treated as such and sold on quickly) but I think that is the exception, rather than the rule, for horses and ponies offered for sale by auction.

 

The other scenario is that the dealers buy cheap from owners that just can't cope with the problems their horse/pony is presenting them with. The owners can't offer them for sale by normal routes (word of mouth, local adverts, horsey adverts)- because they can't handle them well enough to get them to perform in order to secure a sale. So they are looking for a quick 'off load' and will take a pittance from the dealer just to get rid of 'the problem'.

 

Your average dealer will have a string of riders/grooms, often very experienced who will have enough knowledge behind them to cope and to give that horse/pony enough work to take the 'sting' out of it, or use whatever chemical/herbal treatments that are required to ease any pain.

 

Over the years we have seen extremely 'green' horses - trying to be sold as school masters/confidence givers - that have caused multiple fractures. Horses suffering with spinal tumours, pedal bone rotation, obvious laminitis the list just goes on and on......

 

On a personal note: Money is one thing - yes it is annoying when you buy a horse/pony as descirbed, that turns out to be clearly what isn't right for your needs - even if that shows up three or four weeks later and a family member suffers physicaly injury. By the same token surely you must take that animals medical/mental welfare into account? Also, someone elses family member if you then decide to sell it on without finding out the cause of the problem?

 

The horses and ponies can't tell you, other than by reacting physically.

 

If you sell on - at least be honest about their problems?

[missmoneypenny1]

I totally agree. You have to be honest in a situation like this otherwise you may put somebody in serious danger. I was honest when I put an add out and im very glad I was, although when the girl rode him he went fine and didnt rear i still told her he had been rearing with me. the horse has calmed down a lot now, but there was no way I could have as perfect as he would have played up, and I would not do this anyway. I would have had to sell him back to a dealer in desperation if it wasnt for the person I found who bought him, and like you say this is the problem with dealers, either the horse is green/young or medical or has issues.

 

I think the best thing here is to put an add and and be very honest, you will find somebody willing to take the pony on, although you will prob loose some money, but its better than paying for a pony thats no good for you.

 

Horses are meant to be a hobby, if you are not getting enjoyment out of it or have lost confidence its time to let go. i hope you get things sorted, be very careful if they offer you a swap you may end up with the same problem, I dont think the dealer will be in a hurry to sort this out im afraid.

 

You need to also consider what is best for this poor pony. who knows what past he could have had.

[Bailey9]

Well, I've had no reply to the last letter so it looks like one more letter to inform them I'm taking court action - wish me luck!

 

lexandergundogs - I've been doing my homework this week and I found Alison Davies pdf file on the internet and have it saved. His saddle has been checked and he is unshod, trimmed every 4wks. I've lunged him and taken him out in hand with and without tack and his actions are the same.

 

This person is not only a dealer they run a riding school and have found out a few stories in the last week - too late now:(

 

I am experienced enough to deal with this pony (14hh) and I could bring him on but I wanted a 'confidence giver'. I still can't believe he's changed so much.

 

Anyway, as the previous owner's name was on the passport, I wrote to him and asked if he could write or telephone me with information about the pony. He rang me and told me he had this pony since he was 3months old and bottle fed him (alarm bells ring already). Said he had to get rid of his horses quickly and a dealer who's description does seem to match offered him £1000.00 18 months ago.

 

So this pony was broken and is a confidence giver all in a matter of 18months, then a silly fool came along and paid £3000.00 for him - guess who that was:mad:

[Bailey9]

Don't know if anyone is still following this but....I received a reply from the dealer.

[GlasweJen]

what's she saying?

[Mr lex]

Oh Yes, Please tell !!

 

Lex

[hellhasnofury]

Hello Bailey,

 

Yes we are still watching and waiting your thread..

 

What was the outcome

[Mr lex]

So Bailey

 

What did the dealer tell you?

 

I can hear the same alarm bells - 3 months old and bottle fed would jangle a few nerves with me too!

 

We bought a 'riding school' pony in for my daughter as a confidence giver and paid well over the odds. We were told the pony was 9 years old and OK she had ridden him out a few times from the stables and got on very well with him! What we didn't know was the pony was taken out on virtually every ride going from the stables - to keep him calm/knackered so that he would behave. It turned out that the pony had taught the local postman to ride - some 15 years earlier, knew every trick in the book to 'ditch' his jockey if the mood took him and hadn't been ridden for at least 4 hours a day - it resulted in my daughter having to have plates put in her arm and she is now permanantly scarred and won't go near a horse!

[Bailey9]

Sorry have been without a computer for a few days.

 

lexandergundogs - Thats awful, hope your daughter has recovered. My daughter still wants to ride and I just don't want her to.

 

They said they have evidence of owning the pony for 8months and have also listed childrens names who have ridden him up to when we bought him.

 

They quoted my extract of the sales of goods act and said if I was concerned then why didn't I contact them. Also when I read his passport and discovered his age why did I not return him the next day. I know that I should have contacted them about his behaviour but I also know if I did and if I'd returned him, there was no way they would give me my money back as receipt said 'sold as seen', and they were not that kind of people. They stated a vetting would have shown up his age. I think I said in an earlier post that under health & safety the riding school have to have their horses go through a similar stage 2 vetting every 6months so I didn't think a vetting was needed.

 

They stated I asked if the pony was good with clippers and they said we don't clip our ponies - then how come they had recently hogged his mane.

 

They suggested I said to them I was a good horse women and could bring the pony on as they never hid the fact he was young and green. (Admission he was green)

 

Their final ending was - Why should they put right this pony which obviously did not put a foot wrong and I was happy to have. As the pony will need a full vets examination and possible weeks or months of re schooling to bring him back in condition they are prepared to offer £1700 to buy him back.

 

I know I'm wrong on a a few things:-

 

I should have had him vetted.

I should have rang them & kept ring them to mention the problems.

I should have asked to look at the paper work.

 

The letter is very 'tit for tat' and they haven't mentioned half of his behaviour, I had nearly two pages highlighted with bullet points listing his behaviour and she has only come back with one (clippers).

 

Do I carry on all the way or give in?