Nationwide/dryden claimform - credit card debt **DISCONTINUED**

[1stlifeline]

Have received a response to a CCA request and would like advice please, thank you.

 

I sent off a CCA request to the Nationwide on my partners behalf.

2 days ago we recieved a full set of statements (apart from last months so we dont know if they added charges after getting the CCA request as the had on all the previous months) and also a letter from Drydens lawyers.

 

The letter states that they have sent the agreement as requested and goes on to say that 'our client will no longer accept £22 a month as it will take an unacceptable time to pay off the debt (they want 7 times that figure) It also says that because a default notice has been served and has expired the full debt has become due and that the orig contractual repayments no longer have effect. It then says 'contact us in 7 days otherwise legal proceedings WILL be issued without further notice.

 

Now, I dont have the facility to scan and post on here the copy they have sent but will give as much detail as I can.

It is one photocopied sheet and is stamped by the local branch where he applied for the card.

 

The first line on the sheet says 'please complete this section and date at the bottom if you are applying for a credit card'

Then in a box underneath that it says 'Credit Agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974' -The parties are Nationwide Building Society and the person who appears in the 'first named' section of the application form' The Nationwide Credit Card conditions form part of this Agreement'

 

Now Im confused because it is clearly the form he filled in to apply for the card but at the same time it refers to 'this agreement'

 

After that there is a section where it asks for a password and his date of birth and a box to tick for PPI.

 

Under that is a section about Payment Protection Declerations.

 

Then there is a box which says 'This is a credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms' then there is his signature and the date.

The signature is definatly his and the date is correct 2002.

 

Below that is a box stating'your right to cancel'

Once you have signed this agreement you will have for a short time the right to cancel it.

 

Under that is a box with the card number and a signature on behalf of the Nationwide.

 

 

At the very bottom there is print saying 'detach page and send to signature capture.

 

So it does refer to it being an agreement a couple of times on the page but there do not sem to be any prescribed terms so is it legit or not?

 

He is panicked now because they have threatened court action. He dosnt really have much faith in me doing this so I need to be really sure Im on safe ground as he wouldnt have a clue if he had to go to court and would be furious with me for starting this. He thinks I have rocked the boat and now they are turning the screw because of it.

They want him to contact them within 7 days, I have told him no phone contact at all, do not ring them, so he wants me to write to them.

I would be grateful if someone could point me to a link showing the 'prescribed terms so I can print them off to show him, I dont have internet access at home at the moment so he isnt familiar with this site.

 

I would also appreciate some help with what to put in writing to them now to show that we standing firm and know our rights. I have been reading up on the site for the last few months and feel quite confident about what Im doing usually but my dad died last week and just st the moment everything is harder than it should be and I dont want to make a mistake. I have CCA.d 3 of my creditors and heard nothing from them yet so again he is thinking they are out to get him because I have only done this one for him and of course they have replied first.

 

 

I would be so grateful for any help, thank you

 

Bump.................Sorry to bump this thread so soon but I would love to be able to get a reply before I leave work just so I can put his mind at rest when I go home, thanks

[42man]

Have you got a digital camera ? that you use to take a photo ?....also are there many excessive charges ?

[Killerschick]

An application agreement is not uncommon and can certainly be valid. However, usually these sort of agreements include terms & conditions in a seperate leaflet (or on the back of the form) and if they haven't included these they haven't complied with your S78 (1) request. See the extract from the CCA below:-

 

78.

Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement.

— (1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [F1 £1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

 

I'd go back to them and point out that they haven't complied with your request under the CCA. At the same time request statements of account since inception to arm yourself with the info you need about any potentiall unlawful charges.

 

Hope this helps.

[1stlifeline]

Thank you for the replies.

It was a credit card application not a loan so will this make any difference to the terms and conditions. I believe that because its a credit cad the prescribed terms should show the credit limit and rate of interest.

 

Can I also ask how you would react to the letter stating that they now want increased payments and will take court action if we dont call them within 7 days.

 

Just realised that I havnt posted that the copy of the agreement is scanned, I put photocopied in my opening post. Its only the size of half an A4 sheet and looks like it had been faxed through to Drydens who have then added the letter and posted it on to us.

 

Also on the bottom of the sheet it has the number P7030 (July 2002) I dont know if this is relevent.

Thanks

 

Bump, just wondered if there are any more opinions please, thank you.

[nickmcmechan]

i do think you need to be careful with this one, as it sounds to me (and i'm no expert here at all) that they will now easily supply your CCA request.

 

most of these respond withing 7 days or court letters are there to force a response, they mention £22 is not enough, sounds like their up for negotiation - maybe someone has a good letter for this?

[gh2008]

Peterbard has an excellent thread on enforceability well worth a read.

 

Without the prescribed terms in the agreement document it is, as sent, unenforceable. When the 12+2 days are up they are in default of your request. You can stop all payments if you wish.

 

Now Drydens aren't going to just roll over they will be sending threat-o-grams & generally doing what they consider to be their job - trying to get as much money out of you before you realise your rights & stand firm.

 

Have a good read of some of the other CCA threads, it will also give you an idea of what your options are and what to expect from the DCAs.

 

You will both need to be strong - it will be hard work. (but made much easier with the help from everyone on here )

 

If you are not feeling up to it at the moment it may be worth approaching one of the free debt advice organisations CCCS PayPlan CAB as that will get you some breathing space.

 

& remember you DO NOT have to talk to them EVERYTHING IN WRITING anything else just ignore

 

If you want to carry on, may I suggest that, with the 1st withheld payment, you go and get a cheap scanner & at least dial-up Internet access (there are still 'no monthly fee' Pay-as-You-Go @ local rate services around) - you'll need it for anyone to give proper advice.

PM me if you need any help re the last paragraph

[1stlifeline]

Thanks for the reply nickmcmechan. They have sent me what they say is a true copy of the cca, I have described it above. They didnt send that within 7 days though, it took over 6 weeks to get it. Its the letter with it that says we must contact them within 7 days. I would really value someones advice on if they think that it meets the prescribed terms. I have described it the best I can in my opening post.

 

Thanks gh2008. Its my laptop that needs replacing, its not internet access thats the problem at the moment. Im ok here at work, I can be on as long as I want but obviously cant use a scanner here.

Thanks for the reply

[gh2008]

From Peter's thread

 

------------------------------------------------------------

The Pescribed Terms are these

 

A Amount of credit

A term stating the amount of credit

 

B Repayments

A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following-

(a) Number of repayments;

(b) Amount of repayments;

© Frequency and timing of repayments;

(d) Dates of repayments;

(e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

C Rate of interest

A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement

D Credit limit

This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.

--------------------------

 

Which of these applies to you depends on the type of agreement you have?

 

For a Running Account (credit card) agreement

 

BC and D Apply

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

If they are not there & even if they are and the sheet you have refers to any other documents which they have failed to send, then after the 12 days are up the agreement is unenforceable

IF they send a properly executed agreement after the 12 days then, with a Court order, it can be made enforceable. but I think that's a way off yet & not be worried about until it happens.

 

My thoughts would be that IF a properly executed agreement exists then they would have sent it in response to your legal request for it.

 

Thanks for the reply nickmcmechan. They have sent me what they say is a true copy of the cca, I have described it above. They didnt send that within 7 days though, it took over 6 weeks to get it. Its the letter with it that says we must contact them within 7 days. I would really value someones advice on if they think that it meets the prescribed terms. I have described it the best I can in my opening post.

 

Report them to TS & the FOS for their criminal offence of failing to respond in the 12+2+30 day deadline.

[1stlifeline]

Thank you all for the help

[1stlifeline]

Well, update time. The CCA dosnt seem to have all the prescribed terms on it so I thought we would sit tight. But, today we got a court summons from them. OH is not too happy as he stopped paying them on my advice and didnt have much faith in what I was trying to do to start with. Now he is of the opinion that if I had left things alone he wold still be ok making the small payments he was making.

He wont go to court to argue it out and is just going to fill in the form making the same offer of payment he was making before as thats all we can afford but now Im worried that they may not accept it because we tried to do the CCA thing. On the plus side though, if they do accept the payments then at least we should be ina slightly better position than before as Nationwide were putting more interest on than we were paying off each month.

IF, the payments are accepted is there anything to stop me sending a SAR and trying to claim back the charges or can I not do that once it has gone through the court?

[42man]

Just show your husband this piece of a government act !!!

 

CCA RULES FOR PRESCRIBED TERMS

CONSUMER CREDIT ACT

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

 

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

 

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

Don't also forget that the debt is disputed due to excessive charges also !!! If you cave in you will have to pay the other sides legal costs too !!

 

[1stlifeline]

Thanks for the quick reply. I know it sounds daft but neither OH or myself are really confident enough to put forward a good argument in court. I just know that I would go to pieces and freeze if I was asked something I wasnt prepared for. He dosnt go anywhere near computers and so has never read up on these forums. Hes just very sceptical about it all and of course now Im getting a touch of the old 'I told you so's'

As far as the other sides charges go, they have already put £250 on for costs, is there more to come?

[2Grumpy]

If the CCA doesn't have all of the prescribed terms & so is invalid, that is a complete defence.

 

I think that they also need to have sent you a valid default notice. Do you remember getting one?

 

Without both, they will lose.

 

There are people here who will write your defence for you.

 

They might not have continued taking a small amount.

 

I may be wrong, but if you defend & the judge finds against you, then he will look at your circumstances and set a repayment rate that will probably be much lower than what they are proposing. Their fees amount to 1 month of what they want you to pay! If you don't defend then I don't know whether you get that option.

 

What's the date that you have to acknowledge the claim? Don't panic, don't do anything in a hurry, but don't leave it too late to acknowledge either!

 

Grumpy

[gh2008]

Just to re-iterate what the others have said.

 

Without the prescribed terms, the agreement becomes irredeemably unenforceable. What that means is that even a Court cannot enforce the agreement. As long as you do the paper work (which everyone will help you with you can check out

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/128460-barclaycard-county-court-claim.html for a current defence being sorted) defend in Court IF it comes to that. Then you WILL WIN.

 

You can even get someone from on here to go with you as a Court buddy as moral support & help.

 

This is just another scare tactic, albeit quite a good one. You're not the first neither will you be the last, but without a 'proper' agreement they are in the wrong and they will lose, you may even be able to claim wasted costs from them, as they are bringing a case without any chance of winning (if defended).

 

Can you get the paperwork you received from them scanned (the agreement, T&C, any other stuff - remove personal details)

 

You will also need to type up the POC from the claim form as well.

 

Once you've done that there will be people along to support you ALL THE WAY.

 

It looks bad now - but IT WILL GET BETTER

 

Good Luck

gh

 

Oh, meant to say that if you let it go to Court undefended, you will obviously lose then as you will have, in effect, admitted the whole alleged debt, and then with a CCJ you will struggle (i.e. several Court appearances without any guarantee of winning - the ball will be firmly in their court then) to get any charges back.

 

They are ramping up th pressure very quickly, knowing that as you 'CCA'd them you may be starting to know your rights. They know their agreement won't stand up, so are hitting you with the biggest weapon in their arsenal from the off. Big bully tactics, that's all they are.

[1stlifeline]

You can even get someone from on here to go with you as a Court buddy as moral support & help.

 

I didnt know that was possible, if we did try to fight it how would I go about finding a Court Buddy?

I am going to see if my sister has the facility to scan it for me so I can perhaps get a bit more info as to if it does comply or not.

The other thing is that it is at Northampton Court. If we defend would we have to go to Northampton or do they transfer to a local court.

 

Sorry to sound thick but Im really nervous about it now.

[42man]

1st.... it will be transferred to your local court also.....and yes scan the document (OR) use a digital camera and use photobucket on the net...

 

I believe you have to acknowledge the receipt of the CCJ witihn 14 days of the date of it, once you have done that you get a further 14 days to file a defence....but it may be worthwhile sending this letter today by recorded del..

 

Take a look at this thread as it is someone in a similar position to yourself....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/127449-bryan-carter-ccj-help.html?highlight=ccj

 

What part of the country are you in by the way ?

 

I have reproduced this courtesy of PT2537

 

In the XXXX County Court

Claimant -v- (YOUR NAME)

Claim Number: (CLAIM NUMBER)

 

 

Dear XXX

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

 

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below.

 

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with *********.(AMEND TO THE COMPANY NAME)

c. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

d.Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

e. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

f. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

g. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

h. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

i. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

XXXX (type, don't sign).

[gh2008]

You can even get someone from on here to go with you as a Court buddy as moral support & help.

 

I didnt know that was possible, if we did try to fight it how would I go about finding a Court Buddy?

 

First of all let's get rid of this 'if we fight it' you really must fight it, they are in the wrong here.

The worst outcome of fighting it is, at Court, they win on the day, the Judge will order you to repay what you can afford NOT what they want you to pay. That's the worst outcome and that's assuming they come up with an enforceable agreement and all their paperwork is correct.

They are bringing the claim, and as long as you defend & turn up etc. they have to get everything right. You blow one big hole in their case and that's it for them - Game Over - for good.

That is of course assuming it gets that far, many don't.

 

Re. the 'buddy system' at the top of this page, you will see some links, in the middle is a link to the 'buddy system', click it, pop in your postcode and it will return a list of buddies close to you - email them and see. Otherwise, post in the thread the area you're from and someone might offer on here.

 

I am going to see if my sister has the facility to scan it for me so I can perhaps get a bit more info as to if it does comply or not.

The other thing is that it is at Northampton Court. If we defend would we have to go to Northampton or do they transfer to a local court.

 

Sorry to sound thick but Im really nervous about it now.

 

No, you're not thick, everyone starts somewhere and, it's not your fault but, you've started by jumping in at the deep end

[1stlifeline]

Thanks for the advice up to now.

I have checked and rechecked but the cca def does not have the prescribed terms on it. I cant believe they think it will hold up but Im worried they may be holding somethng back because I cant see that they will risk court on what they have sent me.

According to the court papers the day of service was Saturday so I need to make a move quickly. I remember seeing something on here with a letter you can send asking them to supply all the relevent paperwork they will rely on in court.

If I do this will I be able to do it in the timescale involved or could they hold the information back until it was too late for me to use it. I should also add that there are charges on the statemnets that they sent (its a credit card and because we were making smaller payments they added late charges and over limit charges every month.

Also, if I ask for all the info is there a possibility they may back down or is it a case of us definatly having to go to court if we persue it.

[42man]

1st the letter is above in post #23.....you have an incredibly strong case (AND) there is case law to back it up too.....

 

You are fighting this on the fact that.

 

The prescribed terms to make it enforceable are NOT there....

There are excessive penalty charges added to the account also....

 

Just because they are attempting to get a CCJ from you, doesn't mean to say they are right or will be able to enforce it !!! They just hope you'll be frightened into not fighting it....a lot of people think scary court, expensive solicitors and go pale with fright.....you know far more about your rights now...!!

[1stlifeline]

Sorry 42man, I dint read the rest of my thread before doing my post. The letter is great, thanks again.

[gh2008]

May be worth having a read here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/108467-basic-introduction-consumer-credit.html as well. It gives you some more information about the process.

 

But, remember if their 'true copy of the credit agreement' does not have all the prescribed terms then it's not worth the paper it's written on.

[42man]

Just to reiterate 1st, as GH pointed out earlier it must contain the prescribed terms !! and as I mentioned earlier if it doesn't then a court cannot enforce it (and there are statutes to back this up !!!) If this was me I would go to court and fight it vigorously...!! I think you have a very good case...

[42man]

Where are you in the country by the way ?

[1stlifeline]

Thanks 42man, Im in north Manchester.

[42man]

ok, well it will be transferred to your nearest court, use the buddy system to see if you can find anybody local who may be able to go with you.....BUT once you know your rights and common sense of the CCA laws and the case studies you will feel more empowered....