CL Finance Ltd. court claim form 2 old HSBC debts **WON** Discontinued

[jumpjet]

I have recieved a Court Claim Form today from CL Finance Ltd. and my wife has recieved an identical form.

 

Both forms a in respect of a HSBC account which was passed to them on 28th. September 2007. I recieved a letter from HSBC to say the account had been reasigned and also a letter from CL Finance to say the account had been assinged to them. I wrote to CL explaining that the matter was in the hands of the CCCs and they would be recieving payments from them. At the bottom of Cl's letter there was a short note which stated the debt had been assigned to them, which was dated with the balance owed. I included a CCA request fee with the letter, just to make sure it was genuine and heared nothing from them untill today. The level of payments had to be reduced while my wife found a new job and an income review is now due with the CCC's. I also informed them at the time that I believed the original account with HSBC was the subject of a missold PPI and that I intended to investigate this and if found to be the case would expect a corresponding reduction to the balance they had been assigned. Obviously this has'nt gone down well! We are still making regular DMP payments to the CCCs. So they are getting regular payments that we can afford. Our letter to them was sent after they told us that we weren't paying them enough ( although lower payments had been recieved by HSBC). I assume this is why HSBC sold the debt on.

 

Can I ask that any hearing be transferred to a local court to me if it has to come to it?

 

Even though they say they have a deed of assignment, do they have to supply it and will the fact that they have'nt count against them in court?

 

Can I defend this on the basis of were paying what we can afford through the DMP and not being able to prioritise other creditors?

[jumpjet]

Looking back through my records, the account to which the claim form refers was closed by HSBC on 27th January 2007.

 

Does anyone know where this leaves us?

 

It seems to be that HSBC sold this account number to CL finance on 28th Sept 2007. and not that of our managed loan account to which the debt refers and has a different account number.

 

We have a letter from HSBC to say that they could not pay our refund of charges into this account because it has been closed.

 

does this mean that CL finance can't possibly claim this debt as they have been sold the wrong account? If so what should I do now?

[jumpjet]

Hello.................

 

Any help please????????????

[pt2537]

I have recieved a Court Claim Form today from CL Finance Ltd. and my wife has recieved an identical form.

 

Both forms a in respect of a HSBC account which was passed to them on 28th. September 2007. I recieved a letter from HSBC to say the account had been reasigned and also a letter from CL Finance to say the account had been assinged to them. I wrote to CL explaining that the matter was in the hands of the CCCs and they would be recieving payments from them. At the bottom of Cl's letter there was a short note which stated the debt had been assigned to them, which was dated with the balance owed. I included a CCA request fee with the letter, just to make sure it was genuine and heared nothing from them untill today. The level of payments had to be reduced while my wife found a new job and an income review is now due with the CCC's. I also informed them at the time that I believed the original account with HSBC was the subject of a missold PPI and that I intended to investigate this and if found to be the case would expect a corresponding reduction to the balance they had been assigned. Obviously this has'nt gone down well! We are still making regular DMP payments to the CCCs. So they are getting regular payments that we can afford. Our letter to them was sent after they told us that we weren't paying them enough ( although lower payments had been recieved by HSBC). I assume this is why HSBC sold the debt on.

 

Can I ask that any hearing be transferred to a local court to me if it has to come to it? The case will automatically be transferred to your local court

 

Even though they say they have a deed of assignment, do they have to supply it and will the fact that they have'nt count against them in court? To have a legitimate right to action in their own name they must have a deed of assignment between them and the company who sold them the debt

 

Can I defend this on the basis of were paying what we can afford through the DMP and not being able to prioritise other creditors?

 

.....

[pt2537]

Looking back through my records, the account to which the claim form refers was closed by HSBC on 27th January 2007. OOPPPS Oh DEAR

 

Does anyone know where this leaves us? well if they claim you owe xxx on an account that you can prove is closed and had a zero balance, id say it leaves you in a strong position personally

 

It seems to be that HSBC sold this account number to CL finance on 28th Sept 2007. and not that of our managed loan account to which the debt refers and has a different account number.

 

We have a letter from HSBC to say that they could not pay our refund of charges into this account because it has been closed.

 

does this mean that CL finance can't possibly claim this debt as they have been sold the wrong account? If so what should I do now?

 

can you post a copy of the notice of assignment removing all the personal details first, and also the POCs would help to to see what they are claiming, that way i can see how many errors they have made and help you with the claim

 

regards

paul

[jumpjet]

Here are the letters I mentioned. Thank you.

[jumpjet]

Here is the account closure confirmation.

[pt2537]

 

In the XXXX County Court

Claimant -v- (YOUR NAME)

Claim Number: (CLAIM NUMBER)

 

 

Dear XXX

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

 

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below.

 

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with *********.(AMEND TO THE COMPANY NAME)

c. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

d.Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

e. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

f. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

g. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

h. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

i. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

XXXX (type, don't sign).

 

 

 

 

Amend the letter to suit and add the names etc that are required

 

ok, first thing in the morning, send them this letter via special delivery,it needs to be next day delivery

 

this is a request for disclosure of all the documents, which you are entitled to under the Civil Procedure Rules

 

Can i ask, were there any documents attached to the claim form itself?

 

Regards

 

paul

[jumpjet]

Hello Paul, thanks once again for your response.

 

yes! Both my wife and myself have recieved identical copies of the claim form which includes a "Response" Pack N9 CPC (04/06) But I don't know which parts I should use.

 

I assume this letter should be sent to CL finance?

[pt2537]

Hi Scampjet

 

so they didnt include a copy of any bank statements or any credit agreements or notice of assignment etc with the claim form?

 

i doubt they probably did, they usually dont

 

now then,

 

please do not worry, we can refute this claim for sure, they have no basis to bring this action as we can show that the account was closed, it had a zero balance and therefore they have made a boo boo and basically thats it

 

regards

paul

[jumpjet]

Letter gone off this morning SD.

 

What do we do now?

 

Acknowledge.

Defend or contest?

 

Do the letters above have any bearing?

 

What happens if this claim is defended successfully. The debt is for a loan account with a different number, but does that mean I owe nothing because they bought the wrong account or will they just come after me again for the right account. Am I right in thinking they have been miss-sold this debt by HSBC and will have to go back to them to sort it out?

[pt2537]

Right then

basically, they have issued a claim against an account that is closed with a zero balance so , in this case i would defend all of the claim,

 

Now then there is nowt to say they couldnt bring a new claim but they would have to follow procedure and they would need a valid assignment and also would need to send you a Letter Before Action and all the other bits and bobs

 

the issue of the c*ck up with the debts is something for HSBC and CL to sort, its their fault after all they've balls'd it up not yours after all

at the end of the day, i cant tell you what to do, i can only advise you on whats happening,but if it were me based upon the claim as it is, id defend all of the claim

 

 

regards

paul

[jumpjet]

Thanks Paul,

 

I do appreciate what you say is advice only. I am thinking along the same lines myself, it's just that all this legal stuff makes us laymen a bit "twitchy". From what I can see, it should be a matter of logging the defence on the basis that the account doesn't exist. I would assume on seeing this defence they would not actually take it to court, but of course ..you never know! As they have'nt even got the details of the managed loan account, I don't see why they would put themselves through the hassle and look stupid. Is there any point in acknowledging service or should I just send the claim form. I am unsure how to answer the form E.G. question 2 asks if I've already paid it! Technically yes because there was a zero balance.....Or no because its the wrong account they are claiming for?

 

A little ( 0r a lot of help) will be needed if I am to do this without legal representation. I suppose I will have to deal with the actual debt if and when they sort it with HSBC. On this note, another problem is that the CCC's do not stop making payments apparently, so where would this leave us. I believe that the account number is different again to the ones stated, but if they are claiming we owe an account that we don't, how can we say it is paid if we are still making payments:-?

[pt2537]

Hi Scampjet

 

Who knows what goes through the mind of these DCAs, but i will say this. their case is very flawed and anyone with an ounce of legal nouse would see the flaws. it is this which makes me think that they have filed in the hope that you wont defend and they will win by default and obtain judgment;)

 

Now then, if you want to defend, you will defend all of the claim

 

this is the form you would have i assume http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n9_0406.pdf

 

you need to file the acknowledgment of service

 

now then , you would tick box one,

 

1. I intend to defend all of this claim

 

and fill in your details, the reason is that although the account has a zero balance and you state correctly that you've settled it, that would be for your defence to set this out. at this stage it is merely asking do you owe them or not

 

now you may have to deal with the debt at some point, and i will go through it with you in the next day or so asd to what you need to do

 

however at this point lets concentrate on the case in hand and get the AOS sent off to confirm you are going to fight this, if that is indeed what you want to do

 

Regards

paul

[jumpjet]

Thank you Paul,

I do feel given the paperwork that I have a good chance of defending this claim and as for whether its what I want to do........well if I do nothing I loose anyway! Lets hope defending will be enough!

So at the moment then, all I need to do is send the AOS, or do I send the defence as well?

 

another concern is whether they can "move the goal posts" of the claim when they realise their mistake. If they have been sold both accounts and do have details of our managed loan account, could they have their claim amended to correct their mistake. Obviously this would'nt be good!

[pt2537]

Thank you Paul,

I do feel given the paperwork that I have a good chance of defending this claim and as for whether its what I want to do........well if I do nothing I loose anyway! Lets hope defending will be enough!

So at the moment then, all I need to do is send the AOS, or do I send the defence as well?

 

another concern is whether they can "move the goal posts" of the claim when they realise their mistake. If they have been sold both accounts and do have details of our managed loan account, could they have their claim amended to correct their mistake. Obviously this would'nt be good!

 

Hi

 

At this stage, no defence is needed, what you do need is send back the AOS, we then wait til they run out of time given by the CPR request , then we file a defence now it will depend what they send as to how we file a defence but its highly likely they wont reply to the CPR request

 

now there is another thread which is on the exact same lines as yours http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/124165-claim-issued-against-me.html

and i would have a read as i wrote a short defence for that earlier

 

Now they could re amend their particulars of claim, however its not a case of writing a new claim. they need to file an N245 and need the permission of the court to amend their defence so no panic. in any case if they do this , by that time we will have filed a CCA request for a true copy of the credit agreement which by law they must supply within 12 working days and if they fail they cannot enforce the debt in a nut shell so dont worry, we will go over the other bits over the next couple of days

 

in the mean time have a read of http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/108467-basic-introduction-consumer-credit.html

 

it should help you understand whats happening a bit better

 

Kind Regards

paul

[wednesday1867]

Scampjet, Paul referred to my thread, seems we are in virtually the same situation, if i remember right, CL bought my debt roughly same time as they bought yours.

 

In a nutshell tho, they are sueing me for my Managed Loan on my old Bank Account number, which was closed with a positive balance

 

I think i might be a week or two ahead of you, my defence has to be in by this time next week.

 

Gl with it, hopefully we will both have an easy ride.

[jumpjet]

Thanks for your support wednesday1867! I will read your thread with great interest! Its nice to know I'm not the only one!

[jumpjet]

Hi

 

 

 

Now they could re amend their particulars of claim, however its not a case of writing a new claim. they need to file an N245 and need the permission of the court to amend their defence so no panic. in any case if they do this , by that time we will have filed a CCA request for a true copy of the credit agreement which by law they must supply within 12 working days and if they fail they cannot enforce the debt in a nut shell so dont worry, we will go over the other bits over the next couple of days

 

in the mean time have a read of http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/108467-basic-introduction-consumer-credit.html

 

it should help you understand whats happening a bit better

 

Kind Regards

paul

 

Thanks Paul,

 

I send them a CCA request 0n 24th/12/2007. excluding bank holidays they are now at 16 days by my reckoning.

[pt2537]

Thanks Paul,

 

I send them a CCA request 0n 24th/12/2007. excluding bank holidays they are now at 16 days by my reckoning.

 

Ah, ok, so can i just confirm it was a request for your Credit agreement under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 accompanied with a one pound cheque or postal order?

 

sorry if im asking to confirm what you have already said but it is very important that a CCA request is sent and if you have and they fail to comply with this, this would provide a FULL defence in law to any claim they may bring against you for the other account so it would appear that we have them by the short and curlies

 

regards

paul

[jumpjet]

No problem to ask this, I appreciate that you are making sure you have all the facts. This is only to your credit!

 

Yes A CCA request was dated 23/12/07 and sent 24th. I had'nt noticed the account numbers then, but sent the request when they first sent a letter for not paying enough according to the DMP. Originally we recieved a letter as detailed in my first post and then the "You have defaulted on your agreed Payments letter", then the court claim form after. I included A CCA request with my explanation for the reduced payments. As below.

I recieved nothing from them until the court claim. No "Letter Before Action" as far as I can recall. I have not as yet sent CCA to HSBC but I will do so, in the hope that I will be able to dispute the amount of the debt they bought as it was mis-sold to them by HSBC (just in case they've got the right paperwork)

 

........................................................................................................

 

Thank you for your letters as dated above.

 

It would seem that you were not informed by H.S.B.C. regarding the new terms which we have had to apply to our D.M.P. with the CCC,s.

 

We wrote to H.S.B.C. last September when my wife lost her job with the local authority and informed them that until such time as she regained employment, we were forced to reduce the level of payments we made to all our creditors. We also informed the CCCS and asked them to do the same and as far as we are aware, they did so.

While it has been stressed that this was to be a temporary arrangement, I assume this to be the reason has assigned the balance to you.

 

However, I am pleased to inform you that my wife’s employment situation has now been resolved as of 18th December. Your level of payment will obviously not have increased by Decembers payment date (25th) from the CCCs but subsequent payments will be higher when we are fully aware of what we can afford to pay. We are due for an account review with their CCCs in January 2008 and as such your payments should increase accordingly.

 

Meanwhile, I note on your letter the statement “Notice Of Assignment”. I further notice that this statement does not carry a signature from the H.S.B.C.

 

As has been stressed before, we are doing all we can to alleviate our present position and repay our creditors. In doing this however, it has become necessary for us to ensure the exact levels of our debts to all our creditors and also to further protect ourselves, their entitlement to collect the debts to which they lay claim.

 

You will appreciate that there are many unscrupulous companies within the financial industry, and though I do not doubt your integrity, I must establish your position also. To this end I enclose a PO to the sum of £1.00 to facilitate a CCA request and ask that you send me a copy of the agreement duly signed by HSBC and I trust that you are aware of the timescale involved.

 

I appreciate that you have purchased this debt I good faith from HSBC and we will continue to pay via our DMP according to our ability, but we cannot do more than this, nor can any creditor be prioritised. I have enclosed a copy of our currently revised financial statement and also a copy of the original, (neither of which were disputed by HSBC) for your perusal. Please be assured that these arrangements will be adhered to, to the best of our ability.

 

Further to the above, the level of this debt to the HSBC has been reached with the addition of interest which far exceeds the original balance and as such I intend to investigate this. It may also be the case that as a PPI payment was included as a one off payment to the original loan, this may have been miss-sold and may be reclaimed. I am not in possession of the original agreement for this loan and cannot as yet verify that the above is true, but if it transpires that this is the case, any returned payment from the HSBC will result in a corresponding reduction to the balance I owe yourselves as this portion of the debt should never have been sold to you.

 

I trust that his helps to clarify our position in this matter and look forward to your continued understanding.

 

 

AND THEN CAME THE COURT CLAIM

[jumpjet]

Do I have a problem????????

 

Since HSBC passed our debt on to Metropolitan Collections and then to CL Finance we have been making payments via our DMP to the account number they are claiming for. Although no account exists for this number, I am concerned that in making these payments I am admitting liability for the debt. I would not like to defend all of the claim only to be asked why I am paying it!

[wednesday1867]

Im not legally minded, but i can give you my view

 

This is what id do or did....

 

Id carry on paying up until you receive a copy of your agreement or unitl their deadline passes, i would then send them a letter saying something along the lines of " i sent you a cca request dated xx/xx/xx you have failed to supply any such document, so as per the Consumer Credit Act, you had 12 days to supply it, if after a further 30 you have failed to supply it,you have committed an offence. The account becomes unenforcable, so at this point, my payments will cease up until such time you provide me the documents i am legally enititled."

 

Im no good with legal stuff, so im not sure how this claim against you, could be turned round to your benefit, not having the agreement is a massive benefit, but they yet could supply it, my managed loan was done over the phone and i dont remember having to sign for it, was it the same for you, or did you visit a branch?

 

But if you do go to court and you have continued paying, that surely looks good on your part, as you have kept them in the loop informed them when your partner left work and when she has now found employment, your willing to re raise back to the previous amount they were happy with, common sense says a Judge would just let you carry on., but then again how many times does common sense prevail.

 

It all comes down to the wrong account numbers and if they supply an agreement.

 

My advice might be wrong on all points

 

Lets hope they see the error of their ways, like they did with me.

[jumpjet]

If they have no agreement on top of claiming for the wrong account all the better. But I would certainly ask the question why the debt was still being paid if I have said it was not owed. I am willing to dispute on the basis of no agreement or the wrong account number, but I have read that it is not the CCC's policy to not pay because an account is in dispute. I do'nt want to "rock the boat" with any other creditors being paid by the CCCs and I'm afraid that if I try to insist on The CCC not paying CL they will no longer act on our behalf.

[wednesday1867]

I was with Payplan, i informed them of the situation, they just then re calculated and spread the money between the ones who i said i still wanted to pay.