***RBS PPI Claim Long fight but, WON***

[hellhasnofury]

Had a brief brouse though this thread, seems like you are having trouble with SARs.

Have you tried:

 

Reference: SECTION 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Some things SARs do not cover and SECTION 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 dose and vice-versa

 

Hello AA,

 

I think that you should absolutely send that letter to them, pratts:p , they think they can bluff and we are too stupid to realise, but they are so wrong.

[hellhasnofury]

Had a brief brouse though this thread, seems like you are having trouble with SARs.

Have you tried:

 

Reference: SECTION 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Some things SARs do not cover and SECTION 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 dose and vice-versa

 

A SAR comes under the Data Protection Act and entitled the customer to obtain data any company holds on them. They can be selective in what they give you, and many would be none the wiser as to whether they have been given it all.

 

Section 77 of the CCA is a legal request for a true copy of your credit agreement, this also must include the terms and conditions, and a statement of the account.

 

78.

Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement.— (1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [F46 £1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a)

the state of the account, and

(b)

the amount, if any currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

©

the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(2) If the creditor possesses insufficient information to enable him to ascertain the amounts and dates mentioned in subsection (1)©, he shall be taken to comply with that paragraph if his statement under subsection (1) gives the basis on which, under the regulated agreement, they would fall to be ascertained.

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to—

(a)

an agreement under which no sum is, or will or may become, payable by the debtor, or

(b)

a request made less than one month after a previous request under that subsection relating to the same agreement was complied with.

(4) Where running-account credit is provided under a regulated agreement, the creditor shall give the debtor statements in the prescribed form, and with the prescribed contents—

(a)

showing according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer, the state of the account at regular intervals of not more than twelve months, and

(b)

where the agreement provides, in relation to specified periods, for the making of payments by the debtor, or the charging against him of interest or any other sum, showing according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer the state of the account at the end of each of those periods during which there is any movement in the account.

(5) A statement under subsection (4) shall be given within the prescribed period after the end of the period to which the statement relates.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a)

he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b)

if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

(7) This section does not apply to a non-commercial agreement, and subsections (4) and (5) do not apply to a small agreement.

 

 

[alanalana]

Hello hell, norwich, BRW and all,

 

thank you for the information you have posted.

 

I have a concern with section 78 in that it mentions running accounts and of the five accounts listed in my SAR (previous post) only the last loan account is still running all the previous loans were, loan followed by refinance followed by loan etc etc. Does this rule out Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974?

 

If not then I assume I prepare a letter from the templates (already seen them) and submit requests for the Consumer Credit Agreements, Terms and Conditions and Statements on the accounts citing sections 77 and 78 of the 1974 Act. I presume it will cost a £1.00 fee per account request and if para 1 on running accounts is not applicable I would ask for all five to come. I already hold three original paperworks (Yes they are all single premiums) ( and yes the cost of the insurance on the PPI is included in the Total Cost for Credit TCC) just to ensure accurate match.

 

The letter in my earlier post re Legal transfer of DLFS has been duly posted registered, Lets see what they say about Legally taking on the DLFS Loan account. The two loans I had with Direct Line fall withing the 6 year statute, I hope.

 

Regards

 

aa

[alanalana]

Duplicate of above post due to broadband problem.

aa

[alanalana]

please excuse the duplicate posts it's the fault of Tiscali Should I Claim?

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello all again,

 

Further to my posts , would I be able to cite the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Act 2006 specifically sections 140A, 140B and 140C in respect Unfair relationships within the timescale and number of loans with the Royal Bank Group plc ie 5 loans and refinanced loans in 6 years ie section 140C (4) (a) ie it all started with one loan and so the current running account is as a result of the previous 4 in that they are consoliation loans? Or do I stick to reclaiming Mis-sold PPI?

 

aa

[hellhasnofury]

Hello all again,

 

Further to my posts , would I be able to cite the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Act 2006 specifically sections 140A, 140B and 140C in respect Unfair relationships within the timescale and number of loans with the Royal Bank Group plc ie 5 loans and refinanced loans in 6 years ie section 140C (4) (a) ie it all started with one loan and so the current running account is as a result of the previous 4 in that they are consoliation loans? Or do I stick to reclaiming Mis-sold PPI?

 

aa

 

Hello AA,

 

If you feel it would add to their irresponsibility and add to your case of mis-selling do so, but if you feel it would complicate the matter, then do them seperately:)

[alanalana]

Thanks hell and hello to all,

 

I will stick with the mis-selling issue firstly and then bring in more ammunition if required. namely unfair relationships if required.

 

I believe there is concern by RBS as the first few letters were between the Head Office and then Data Protection team and now the correspondence is from the Retail Regulatory Risk department. Does that mean they may have concerns??? (It could all be part of the delaying tactics of course but they could also be a LITTLE concerned about what the FOS or Courts are going to say about their underhand behaviour..

 

I have still had no response from the worried department of the bank and I am still awaiting confirmation from the ICO on receipt of my complaint.

Regards:)

aa

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello aa!

 

Worried bankers?

 

Excellent.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[alanalana]

Thanks BRW and all thread posters,

 

Just be aware when dealing with RBS. I now have a second letter sent to RBS go missing. First one posted 12 Mar Claim for missold PPI sent to Complaints dept at the RBS HQ address 36 St Andrews Square Edinburgh. sent recorded being treated by Royal Mail as Lost.

Second one posted 2 Apr to the Retail Regulatory Risk office PO Box 1000 again to Edinburgh recorded I checked the online track for delivery and so far 10 April not signed for. Phoned Royal Mail and they are treating this as delayed mail. This was the letter in an earlier post about the transfer of DLFS back to RBS.

 

I wonder are they refusing to sign for the mail and therefore the mail is undelivered? ( They Know what's coming - another delaying tactic ). The Royal Mail today advised me to send everything Special Delivery if the mail is important as this system offers a full track, trace and advice whereas the Recorded delivery you have to follow it up yourself. The only thing is the additional cost. Something's fishy here:confused:

 

Just to make you all aware of the situation.

 

Regards

aa

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello aa!

 

I think there is something Fishy the other way too, as I am getting quite a few Letters that are dated, say, the 1st, arrive on the 11th, but some with Franking or Postal Marks around the 8th/9th.

 

The bankers will no doubt claim they sent Letters in good time, and will exploit the Law that says something along the lines that a Letter sent by Post is deemed to have been delivered within 2 Days...and the other bit that says they are within a Deadline if they Posted it within a Deadline.

 

I can't find the exact wording for both, but it effectively means provided they Date a Letter bang on the Deadline, and post it within maybe a Week of that, they will later claim:

 

"Look Judge how we complied, Deadline was the 1st, we sent the Letter on the 1st, so was Deemed served on the 3rd. All fine I think you will find."

 

Except many Letters are being back-dated I feel, and then Posted when they actually write them. Hence the odd Franking Mark or Postal Dated Marks.

 

My advice to everyone is to save the Envelopes now as well as the Letters, and check them carefully for any signs of Dates that may prove their version of the Letter Dating and Delivery can be brought into question when needed.

 

Don't tell the banker just yet, keep all such Information firmly up your Sleeve until you need it.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[alanalana]

Thats good advice BRW,

 

I have been keeping all envelopes for quite a while now. Firstly for the reason in your post about posting dates and secondly to show the differences in how some envelopes are marked private and confidential and some are not even though the information contained within is private and confidential. I have a selection of white with a window, white without plain brown and a variety of sizes.

 

You could call it a collection.

 

It maybe worth posting the info about keeping envelopes on other threads.

 

regards

aa

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello aa!

 

I'm trying to mention the need to keep Envelopes to everyone, so if we all do this, the Message will soon get around!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[alanalana]

Hello all,

 

The Saga of non compliance with SAR.

Original SAR 7 Jan.

19 items of correspendence both ways since then. 1 of the them a complaint to the ICO.

Statements of accounts on 4 out of 6 accounts received and not much else until today. The I get a lot of data on my royalties, my current account, my personal details, my direct debit details, my address and contact details and information on my existing loan. This was the letter:

 

Dear Mr

 

Data Protection Act - Subject Access Request

I enclose details of your personal data held by Royal Bank of Scotland Pic

and registered under the Data Protection Act 1998.

These details are provided in response to your recent request (7 Jan 2008 is not what I would call recent) made under

the terms of the above Act and were located using the information

contained within your request. ( sadly not all of the information )

Any codes used by the Bank have been replaced by a description of the meaning,

but should you require further explanation of the descriptions provided,

please do not hesitate to ask.

Your request for data held by Direct Line Financial Services (all part of RBS now) has been

forwarded to the correct Department and they will liase directly

with you regarding information requested for Direct Line products.

If you have any problems please do not hesitate to contact me at the

above address shown

 

Yours sincerely,

pp

Joyce E Tudor

Retail Regulatory Risk

The Royal Bank of Scotland pic, Registered in Scotland No 90312

Registered Office: 36 St Andrew Square, Edinburgh EH2 2YB

Authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority.

 

This organisation are really being obstructive in the supply of data.

 

I wonder why???

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello again.

 

This was my response::

 

Thank you for your letter at reference.

 

This letter in response is now item 19 in correspondence regarding my Subject Access Request first submitted on 7 January 2008.

 

I am now becoming exasperated by your continuing delaying tactics in not releasing the information I have requested. Your letter has indeed supplied some data in the form of loan details enquiry for my current loan, balance enquiry on my current loan, statement details of my Royalties account, accounting information on my Royalties account, customer account relationships, account limit details on my Royalties account, Direct Debit summaries, personal customer details, customer address details and Loan application form for my current loan with associated paperwork.

 

However you have still failed to supply data within the directives of the Data Protection Act 1998 as requested in previous correspondence namely:

 

1) Details of four previous loans two with RBS and two with DLFS including details of PPI on those loans, Terms and Conditions applicable to the Customer Credit Agreements and Policy documents applicable to the Loans.

 

2) Full transcripts of telephone conversations between Staff at your Peterhead branch and myself.

 

If you do not hold this information, then as stated in previous correspondence, I will require properly certified documentation confirming details of disposal/destruction/erasure by a certified Data Controller.

I will now await a response to my letter xxxxxxxx dated 12 April 2008 requesting copies of the Consumer Credit Agreements together with Terms and Conditions and any other associated paperwork under the terms of Sections 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for each of the five loans listed within my original SAR and other correspondence sent to you.

Failure to respond by 22 April 2008 will result in me raising a formal complaint to the following offices.

 

Financial Services Authority

Office of Fair Trading

Financial Ombudsman Service

Information Commissioners Office

British Bankers Association

Yours faithfully

I will await the ICO to respond to my complaint and failing all else it's Court.

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello all,

 

I have a question on CCA 1974 and section 77 subsection (3) it states that subsection (1) does not apply to---

(a) an agreement under which no sum is, or will or may become, payable by the debtor, or

(b) a request made less than one month after a previous request under that subsection relating to the same agreement was complied with.

 

I take it that this means that under section 77 subsection (3) (a) I cannot request the CCAs on Previous loans which were then refinanced ad infinitum? up to the present loan? ( for which I have received information).

 

Could a Mod or cagger with legal expertise advise if this is correct? and if so is the Data Protection Act 1998 the way to get the required information?

 

Thank you in anticipation of advice.

 

aa

[hellhasnofury]

Hello all,

 

I have a question on CCA 1974 and section 77 subsection (3) it states that subsection (1) does not apply to---

(a) an agreement under which no sum is, or will or may become, payable by the debtor, or

(b) a request made less than one month after a previous request under that subsection relating to the same agreement was complied with.

 

I take it that this means that under section 77 subsection (3) (a) I cannot request the CCAs on Previous loans which were then refinanced ad infinitum? up to the present loan? ( for which I have received information).

 

Could a Mod or cagger with legal expertise advise if this is correct? and if so is the Data Protection Act 1998 the way to get the required information?

 

Thank you in anticipation of advice.

 

aa

 

Hello AA,

 

Yes I think you are correct on your assumption. Maybe post this question in the legal section of the debt threads, there will be more mods or legal bods helping in those sections:-D

[alanalana]

Thanks HHNF.

Will do that or pm a mod to ask them to look at the post:wink:

 

You are an early bird:grin:

 

Regards

 

aa

[hellhasnofury]

Thanks HHNF.

Will do that or pm a mod to ask them to look at the post:wink:

 

You are an early bird:grin:

 

Regards

 

aa

 

Hello AA,

 

Up early for work, but you are as bad,

 

Mmmmh birds of a feather:D

[alanalana]

Hello HHNF,

 

Started a new thread on the Legal issues forum and Rory a nice helpful Mod has confirmed what I thought.

 

If you have had several loans and they have been refinanced then the banks are not legally bound to produce Consumer Credit Agreements for them under the terms of section 77 of the CCA 1974 except for a loan that is still current.

 

However they are required to provide them if you submit SAR asking for them. He mentioned that the banks should keep documentation on old loans for 5 years after they are closed. So all my loans fall into that 5 year bracket.

 

Also found a bit of a peach in my paperwork ref Pre Existing Medical Conditions.

PM me if you would like some info on this.

 

Regards

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello,

 

I have today forwarded letter three to the ICO in regard to my complaint as follows:

 

INFORMATION COMMISSIONERS OFFICE CASE REFERENCE xxxxxxx

Dear Sir/Madam,

I have received further correspondence from the Royal Bank of Scotland enclosed as item xx. My response is enclosed as item xx.

 

The Bank have not yet responded fully to my original SAR dated x Jan 08.

 

One of my concerns is that the data applicable to the first loan with Direct Line Financial Services would have passed the 5 year time limit in March 2008 for the retention of records as required by The Money Laundering Regulations 2007 Statutory Instrument 2007 No. 2157 Part 3 (19) (3) (a) (i).

 

If the Bank had responded within the statutory time limit (the SAR 40 days ) then the documents would by law have to be retained and have been available to me. This may now not be the case. If the records are not available because of the expiry of the five year limit, what action would be available to me in regard to their failure to provide the information requested within the five year limit?

 

It seems that The Royal Bank of Scotland are prepared to delay the provision of information requested under the terms of The Data Protection Act 1998 for as long as possible. They are certainly in my opinion flouting the Law of the land.

The letters are again duplicates and may be disposed of once your enquiries are completed.

Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

 

Yours sincerely

 

I am eagerly awaiting the response from the ICO with a bit of luck they will get the RBS to release all the relevant information to me then I can prepare a case for the return of the Missold PPI..

 

The lesson here I think ( and I admit I have been slow off the mark ) is to ask for everything in your SAR in fine detail, be as specific as possible so as not to allow the banks the ability to stall. They are allowed to enter into dialogue with you to assist them in getting the correct information but it can also give them the chance to take control.

 

If you are not specific in your SAR it gives them to opportunity to ask you to supply more information, so include everything from the customer care checklists they complete when you apply for the loan, to CCAs, Terms and Conditions, Policy documents, emails, normal mail, tapes or transcripts of telephone conversations, Loan application forms and anything elso you can think of at the time. When you get the documents on the loan check them all for the hidden FLAT rate interest details which were never mentioned when you took out the loan.

 

regards to all PPI claimants

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello all this is the next step to get RBS to sit up and act on my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request),

 

Mr xxxxxxx

See distribution.

 

xxxxxxxx 2008

 

Dear Sir,

 

Submission of a Very Serious Formal Complaint against the Royal Bank of Scotland

 

I wish to lodge a very serious formal complaint against the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) for their failure to fully comply with a Data Subject Access Request (S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)) under the provisions of Section 7 Sub section (1) ( c ) (i) and (ii) of the Data Protection Act 1998 which is a statute within the Law of the British Isles.

 

On the 7 January 2008 I submitted a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to the Royal Bank of Scotland asking for information on five loan accounts which I have held, two with Direct Line Financial Services (DLFS) and three with RBS. Four of these loans were refinanced to subsequent loans up to the current loan which is still active.

 

To date, I have received statements on the three RBS loan accounts, a statement on my current account and since submitting a request for Consumer Credit Agreements under the provision of Section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I have now received the documentation on the existing loan.

 

Despite several further requests for the information as required by my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), none has been forthcoming.

 

Letters have been sent on:

24 January 2008

16 February 2008

12 March 2008

28 March 2008

2 April 2008

12 April 2008

12 April 2008 Request for CCA under provision of Consumer Credit Act 1974

19 April 2008

 

I have still not received Consumer Credit Agreements with associated paperwork on four of the loans. Because of the inordinate delays, the information requested on the first loan which was refinanced in March 2002 would be of no use as any claim against that loan would now be statute barred within the Scottish Courts.

I have not received data in the name of recordings of telephone conversations or transcripts of those conversations between the RBS and myself.

I have not received copies of emails or letters which I know exist.

I have also not received any properly certified documentation by Data Controllers within the RBS stating the information that I have requested has been disposed of, destroyed or erased.

 

The Royal Bank of Scotland is a member of the British Bankers Association (BBA), is licensed by the Financial Services Authority and should I believe, operate within the Law of the Land and therefore respond within the statutory timescales within Legal Acts at Law, namely the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

I have, when asked, provided information to the RBS, but it seems to me now, that they will try and delay supplying the data requested by using whatever delaying tactics they see fit. On one occasion referring me back to DLFS for the information I had requested. The fact that the DLFS had been legally transferred back to the RBS on 1 March 2006 (the transfer included all DLFS loans) was obviously overlooked by the Data Protection staff within the RBS.

This is indeed an extremely sorry state of affairs and it beggars belief that RBS staff would not be aware this Legal transfer had taken place.

 

My understanding is that the RBS had 40 days to fully supply all the information requested in my SAR, this has most certainly not happened.

 

I would therefore like to request that each addressee takes the appropriate measures to instruct or at least direct the RBS to supply this information to me as a matter of urgency.

 

I have a complaint lodged with the Information Commissioners Office Case Reference xxxxxx

I would now urge the Commissioner to consider an Enforcement notice against the RBS under Section 40 of the Data Protection Act.

I would also request that the Financial Services Authority, the Financial Ombudsman Service, the Office of Fair Trading and the British Bankers Association add this extremely serious complaint to their files on the Royal Bank of Scotland.

 

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

A xxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Distribution:

 

The Financial Services Authority, 25 The North Colonnade, Canary Wharf, London, E14 5HS.

 

The Financial Ombudsman Service, South Quay Plaza, 183 Marsh Wall, London,

E14 9SR.

 

The Commissioner, Information Commissioners Office, Wyckuffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 5AF.

 

The Information Commissioners Office, Casework and Advice Division, Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 5AF.

 

The Office of Fair Trading, OFT Enquiries, Fleetbank House, 2-6 Salisbury Square, London, EC4Y 8JX.

 

Chief Executive, British Bankers Association, Pinners Hall, 105-108 Old Broad Street, London, EC2N 1EX.

 

Any comments or advice on the above letter due for despatch shortly would be welcomed.

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello all,

 

Just bumping this up, please excuse me doing this but I am looking for some comforting advice on this letter (previous post 47) as the deadline is tomorrow and I have six envelopes waiting for stamps.

 

Any Mod advice would be most welcome.

 

Thank you

 

aa

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello aa!

 

Wish I could help, but this may keep it visible, as it's a complex one and you need all the eyes we can muster to take a look at it for you.

 

I'll have a toot if I spot anything of use.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[alanalana]

Hello BRW,

 

Thanks for the boost, anyway I believe I am well within my right to complain after nearly 4 months so I may as well complain to everyone, That way the message is loud and clear. ( Can you suggest any additional addressees )

 

Roll on the Information Commissioners Office response to my complaint.

 

I see that the Bank of England has made a statement about BONUS payments to banking staff suggesting not enough thought has been given to the risk element. Well now there's not an unexpected surprise:eek:

 

Keep on trucking you CAGers and good luck.

 

aa

Edited June 15, 2008 by alanalana
spelling again