SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[pugsley]

thanks well this student o/d from smile bank is from 2004 or late 2003 if that helps

[rhsymonds]

Hi Joe,

Peterbard is the light you seek, nobody knows this stuff like he does.

[conchy_joe]

hi rhsymonds,i'd like to get some advice from peterbard,how do i contact him...c_j.

[rhsymonds]

Id post whatever you want to ask on this thread, he drops by when he has time.

 

It may take a while for him to respond but i value his opinion over almost any other on here.

Alternatively you could PM him, but that would deprive others of any info you may be given.

[SteveH2508]

sorry I know this has been dealt with before, but do student overdraft's come under the CCA, mine has just been called in, can someone point me to what post/page the answer might be on. from reading before i.e. my memory I believe it doesn't come under the CCA, just need confirmation.

 

Overdrafts are sort of covered by the CCA BUT they are exempted from a lot of the Agreement Regs. You may be thinking of the Student Loans, whose(?) status changed back in the 90s according to some posters. I have not followed those threads as I'm rather too old to be involved!!

[Movingon]

My apologies Pugsley I misread your post. There is no such thing in Law as a "Student's Overdraft". It's just an overdraft which a company has targeted at a particular demographic group - so it comes under the same laws as any other overdraft. I believe as Steve says that the CCA does cover them as "Running Account Credit" - which would be covered for Original Agreement purposes under s.78 of the Act.

 

I was originally talking about Student Loans which are actually a separate legal entity from other types of Loan.

[pugsley]

thanks, :Dyes I wasn't talking about student loans, just a 2,200 overdraft on Smile Bank which was interest free and has now been called in and cancelled because I went over my limit, they have asked for my cheque book back and cards.

 

So am within my rights to send them a CCA request? I've opened another account and transfered everything but they are going to expect me to pay this back quicker than I can possibly do at the moment, I have been warned by friends that they can get quite bullying on this issue and as I'm not working and home schooling my daughter I have very little income at present, so I am looking at options.

 

I could put this into dispute but they only owe me about 100 pounds in charges unfortunately.

[noomill060]

You could indeed start a Small Claim for the £100. (Are you sure this was interest free?)

 

They would be so suprised at having to defend a claim against you! You could then sit back and wait, safe in the knowledge that they cant hassle you until the claim was settled.

 

Alternatively, you could let them take you to Court and watch them wince as you put a counterclaim against them. They would have to succesfully defend your counter claim against unlawful penalty charges before they could try to convince a judge to give judgement against you.

 

And as we all know, they really dont like having to defend unlawful penalty charges...

[pugsley]

Thanks that puts it into perspective somewhat, it does seem prudent to put this straight into dispute, they have been taking benefits recently which won't go down to well if they take me to court. I will drag my feet as long as I can then. I will also sent a CCA request and see what they have got, I can't remember much about it apart from applying initially on the net, I probably did sign something they sent through and would be interested as to what they have sent.

 

Forgot to mention I have already got back 125.00 (sorry can't find the pound sign on this laptop grr) after the LBA from them so I don't think they will be very surprised.

[weaver440]

at this moment i'm totally confused....first it seemed that if the dca doesn't provide the copy as requested within 12 working days then the debt is unenforceable, now it seems that they don't have to send a "true signed copy",just a blank photocopy and furthermore it seems that they can come up with the original at any time in the future.is there a time where you can say .."ok,i'm out of the woods now".banks are easy meat and i thought that dealing with dca's was black and white but it's suddenly entered a grey zone.can someone shine a light for us please. :confused:

 

That is exactly my feelings conchy joe. When CAN you say its all done and dusted. I think there should be something which compels company's by law to say either "Yes we have the agreement but have not produced it for reasons blah blah blah" or "No, we do not have the agreement". I still do not know if british gas loans have my agreement? So in theory I could take out a claim against them for the return of all monies paid at which time they could turn round and say "nah nah nah nah nah, we've got the agreement":eek: Ok, so the courts won't be very happy but thats all, where would that leave me? I want to know if they have it or not!!!!

[ncf355]

Hi,

 

if they persist when there is no agreement available - they DO have to show a true copy of the original agreement, itself containing all prescribed/required terms (see section 180, CCA 1974) - but this can leave out your address and your/their sig - the only way forward is court action

 

You have every legal right to take action

 

The only alternative is to wait for them to take you to court which in all probability would not happen as they know they wont be able to enforce without the docs

 

If it gets to court and they then produce the signed docs they would be in deep with the court as you have given them every opportunity to do this prior to court and avoid the waste of both yours and the courts time

 

NcF

[weaver440]

ncf355, thanks.

 

Do you have any thoughts on wether i should/could issue a claim against them for non compliance and therefor the return of all monies paid or do you think a letter asking for the return of my money with the threat of taking out a claim against them would do the job? Normally I would be more than content with the non enforcement of the debt but british gas have rattled my cage to such an extent that I have covered myself in war paint and will not be happy to give in until I have a scalp or two!!!! Any comments appreciated.

[ncf355]

Hi,

 

I'd write to them offering them the chance to sort it

 

You have to be seen to be reasonable , even if they are behaving like school kids!

[un1boy]

My apologies Pugsley I misread your post. There is no such thing in Law as a "Student's Overdraft". It's just an overdraft which a company has targeted at a particular demographic group - so it comes under the same laws as any other overdraft. I believe as Steve says that the CCA does cover them as "Running Account Credit" - which would be covered for Original Agreement purposes under s.78 of the Act.

 

I was originally talking about Student Loans which are actually a separate legal entity from other types of Loan.

 

Overdrafts are exempt from sec 78 requests.

 

I know that the FOS ruled that because one bank couldn't produce an the original application form, that they couldn't enforce it - but there is no obligation in law for them to produce it under sec 78.

 

I currently have a complaint going through the FOS about an OD they have defaulted - they can't produice the original application form noe the original default notice, which they allege I received.

 

I'll let you know how it goes!!

[pugsley]

thanks Uniboy, So I suppose it's a SAR asking for the original application form as well as charges.

 

I do have a letter offering me interest free overdraft until 1 June which I believe was extended another 6 months, but I suppose they are within their rights to call it in anytime.

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

It's a moot point about supplying a signed agreement under the CCA but it's certainly not if they wish to enforce the debt.

[Movingon]

thanks Uniboy, So I suppose it's a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) asking for the original application form as well as charges.

 

I do have a letter offering me interest free overdraft until 1 June which I believe was extended another 6 months, but I suppose they are within their rights to call it in anytime.

 

They are indeed - but they are NOT within their rights to demand unreasonable repayments. It should go something like this:

 

1. They demand full amount back.

2. You state that you cannot pay the full amount and offer them the repayments you can afford.

3. They refuse, blustering and threatening various actions.

4. You pay a regular monthly amount you can afford into the account.

5. They continue to bluster and may even refer it to a DCA.

6. You continue to pay and ignore the DCA completely.

7. If they SELL it to the DCA (unlikely at this stage) you ignore the DCA's threats and keep a total of what you've paid and stop paying the moment you have reached your original liability; then write them and demand a letter of satisfaction from them.

 

etc etc etc

[don leocornay]

Sorry about the length of this message. It's just such a relief to possibly be able to get some help on this

 

After 3 years of getting turned over by HSBC, I've decided to to fight back.

 

Things were going ok I'd just gone permanent in my job a few months and had a 7.5k loan (with 4500 left to pay off), student credit card and overdraft. I was experiencing problems paying off my credit card and after months of receiving harrassing phone calls chasing full settlement (I was paying the minimum by DD) I asked the bank for help, they said they couldn't increase my limit or restructure my loan. The only thing they could do was offer me a managed loan, where they'd consolidate my loan, credit card and overdraft into one lump sum (9300) with a lower repayment. They didn't mention any other points (APR, length of term etc) and to drive the point in further, they threatened to take me to court over the credit card. Reluctantly I bowed to their co-ersion over the phone.

 

It wasn't until 3 months later that I realised that the APR being charged was huge (approx 14% at the time). I would never have agreed to this if they'd told me.

 

Obviously, the bank refused to change my loan back to it's original settings and I had to look in dispair as 100 out of 157 paid each month went to interest charges.

 

To date I've made 8,382.44 in payments and still have 8,263.11 left to clear the debt. Based on this pace, it won't clear until 2012. If I'd stuck to the original agreement I would have paid my grad loan off last september.

 

I've only just found out that unsigned credit agreements are unenforceable so I've sent a letter requesting a signed credit agreement.

The bank replied that the Loan agreement "may have been destroyed due to condensation during an office refurbishment last year" (how convenient!) but that they couldn't find it and offered a dummy agreement. The 12+30 days timelimit has now passed so they've broken the law under the CCA, but they won't cancel the DD that takes my loan payment out because the situation is "under investigation". If it goes out this month, it'll be the second time they've tried to enforce an unenforceable agreement.

 

I've also requested the charges history on my credit cards and current account (about £1500) and will put forward a request to get those back. I think it's best to do this separately at this point in time.

 

My main question is, the loan is now enforceable. can I ask for just my interst back or my payments as well? If I get my payments and interest back it comes to nearly 10 grand

 

Any help will be gratefully received.

[ncf355]

I'm shaking my head in disbelief, and I thought I'd seen it all

 

Insist that they stop the DD IMMEDIATELY!

 

Its exactly because its under investigation (e.g in dispute) that they have no right to take payment

 

The cr*p they have come out with to you is unreal

 

I see court action as your recourse (obviously do a prelim and LBA prior to going for that)

 

As for what to claim back, different people have different ideas

[spiritgirl59]

Hi there Don

 

The treatment you have suffered is appalling

 

Just to add its advisable to open a parachute account with another bank/building society if you go into dispute with your present bank. If you ARE still with the bank who have ripped you off to this extent and you try to cancel the DD you may get the same response we did "we'll take the money anyhow as you bank with us"

 

If you open an account elsewhere and have your money paid in there they won't be able to nab it and you can safely cancel the DD and be sure they can't nab the money from any other account you have with them too.

 

We are all with you on here and wishing you the very best. Let battle commence Don, and don't let them get away with anything. I would do what ncf says and start proceedings. See the templates forum on here for the letters but don't hesitate to ask if you're not sure.

 

It might be best to new thread of your own as well in the relevant bank forum so that your posts don't get lost on this one

 

Spiritgirl

[joesoap]

At a risk of being called a "lazy git" which is what I am at the moment because I've just been child - minding and I need a rest, has anyone had a problem obtaining a CCA from the (Halifax)Bank of Scotland? It was just the BOS when I fell foul of the system.

[ShootMePlz]

At a risk of being called a "lazy git" which is what I am at the moment because I've just been child - minding and I need a rest, has anyone had a problem obtaining a CCA from the (Halifax)Bank of Scotland? It was just the BOS when I fell foul of the system.

 

 

I have had a copy from the Halifax after 6 months that looks like its been copied and paste job with my Signature and also strange black lines where it looks like the paper moved with my address on it, I dont dispute its my signature, however these strange Black Lines say it isnt real and so much so I have refused to accept this as an original copy and have advised them on this and requested now that as they have the document in question, they transfer it to my local branch where I can inspect it, or they take me to court and show it there, where at the same time I will show the so called True Copy and ask the questions What Are These Black Lines?????

[don leocornay]

To ncf and Spiritgirl.

 

Thank you for you help in this matter. It's such a relief to know I'm not on my own in this matter.

 

I spoke to HSBC again today, re-iterating the same points (you've committed an offence re: CCA 1974, the loan's unenforceable etc) but have hit a brock wall. Their standard response was still that my complaint is still under investigation therefore they cannot cancel the DD. This was after being on the phone for an hour and speaking to 3 people (2 in Kuala Lumpur and one in Swansea). When finally talking to Matt (Swansea, wouldn't give me his surname but would give the full name of both his supervisors - methinks he's trying to hide something) it looked like he was going to crack so to finish off I quoted:

"So despite the fact that attempting to enforce this Loan which, subject to CCA 1974 is no longer enforceable, is an offence you are still not willing to cancel the Standing Order Yes or No?"

 

His response? "It's not that simple, but we WILL enforce payment of this loan."

 

In all cases they tried to argue that, because I'd been paying for 3 years, how could I now start saying it's unenforceable. Last time I checked, if an offence is committed, it doesn't get overturned because of time limits. If someone steals from you for continuously and you catch them after x years, they've still committed an offence and if it's proven the length of time you should get your stuff back (or damages)!

 

In terms of settlement, I'd love to be able to go for the jugular and get the lot back which is nearly 12 grand if I include the other claim, but the worst case scenario I'd accept is that they offset my interest and payments against the original loan (I'd get about 2K) then I'm not paying this bs agreement anymore.

 

I'm going to start drafting a letter requesting a full refund. Anyone with any tips on what to include? I've got too many phrases whishing around my head to comprehend right now.

 

PS NCF -What do you mean by prelim and LBA?

[don leocornay]

I've started a new thread for this.

 

Please go to:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/92344-don-leocornays-gonna-kick.html

[joesoap]

I have had a copy from the Halifax after 6 months that looks like its been copied and paste job with my Signature and also strange black lines where it looks like the paper moved with my address on it, I dont dispute its my signature, however these strange Black Lines say it isnt real and so much so I have refused to accept this as an original copy and have advised them on this and requested now that as they have the document in question, they transfer it to my local branch where I can inspect it, or they take me to court and show it there, where at the same time I will show the so called True Copy and ask the questions What Are These Black Lines?????

 

Thanks SMP, I have ruled an effort offside already; it was a blatant copy (and not a very good one at that) of the application form. They are well outside of the time limits now and have committed an offence. I will however, be on the look out for a "cannabilised agreement" should they decide to supply.