Lloyds victory in Birmingham - in perspective

[Dusary]

Dear Reverend 1010,

 

Have you started your own thread?

[Kenny Haymes]

Ive got a case against lloyds for 2500, very nervous now. just waiting for a court date, can i obtain a copy of my origional contract from the bank? am i in my rights to do this???

 

It is not in the interests of the banks to provide you with evidence which would, in all probability, be the equivalent of 'litigation suicide' ! The banks will of course have them - somewhere - and, if it 'suited their case' in a particular scenario they would undoubtedly produce them.

 

Any cases without T&Cs being submitted as evidence on behalf of the claimant customer - should be considered as vulnerable - and T&C evidence should be sought as a matter of priority - see the various appropriate T&C sections on this website.

 

You may also wish to ask for your 'original' T&Cs, and see what happens - for your information, please also see also the following extract re 'Suppression of Documents' The Theft Act 1968 -

 

THE THEFT ACT 1968

(extract from Vol. 12 Halsbury's All England Statutes)

 

Section 15 - Obtaining property by deception

 

A person who by any deception dishonestly obtains property belonging to another, with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it, shall on conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.

 

For the purposes of this section a person is to be treated as obtaining property if he obtains ownership, possession or control of it, and "obtain" includes obtaining for another or enabling another to obtain or retain.

 

For the purposes of this section "deception" means any deception (whether deliberate or reckless) by word or conduct as to fact or as to law, including a deception as to the present intentions of the person using the deception or any other person.

 

 

Section 16 - Obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception

 

(1) A person who by any deception dishonestly obtains for himself or another any pecuniary advantage shall on conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.

 

 

Section 17 - False Accounting.

 

Where a person dishonestly, with a view to gain for himself or another with intent to cause loss to another :- ·

 

Destroys, defaces, conceals or falsifies any account or any record or document made or required for any accounting purpose; or ·

 

in furnishing information for any purpose produces or makes use of any account, or any such record or document as aforesaid, which to his knowledge is or may be misleading, false, deceptive in a material particular -

 

he shall upon conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years.

 

For the purposes of this section, a person who makes or concurs in making in an account or other document an entry which is or may be misleading, false or deceptive in a material particular or who omits or concurs in omitting a particular from an account or other document is to be treated as falsifying the account or document.

 

Section 20 - Suppression etc. of documents

 

A person who dishonestly, with a view to gain for himself or another with intent to cause to another, destroys, defaces or conceals any valuable security, any Will or testamentary document or any original document of or belonging to, or filed or deposited in any court of justice or any government department shall on conviction on indictment be liable to

imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years.

 

A person who dishonestly, with a view to gain for himself or another or with intent to cause loss to another by any deception procures the execution of a valuable security shall on conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years and this subsection shall apply in relation to the making, acceptance, endorsement, alteration, cancellation or destruction in whole or in part of a valuable security, and in relation to the signing of any paper or other material (document?) in order that it may be made or converted into, or used or dealt with as, a valuable security, as if that were the execution of a valuable security.

 

For the purposes of this section "deception" has the same meaning as in section 15 of this Act, and "valuable" means any document creating, or authorising the payment of money or delivery of any property, or evidencing the creation of, transfer, surrender or release of any such right, or the payment of money or delivery of any property, or the satisfaction of any obligation.

 

_________________________________________________________

 

If you are denied a copy of your 'original' T&Cs - you may like to follow up with a further request and also quoting from the above extract - it may assist them in reaching an early decision as to your case & a refund ??

 

It also shows how 'essential' it is to keep ALL copies of ALL documents - a lever arch file with 10 tab index will only cost £3.00 max from any popular stationery outlet - and it would have saved many claimants a lot of angst if they had kept one from the outset (of any account) with all their T&Cs & statements in on place !

 

Good luck !

[photoman]

There is also of course the Fraud act 2006

Which states:

 

1 Fraud

(1) A person is guilty of fraud if he is in breach of any of the sections listed in

subsection (2) (which provide for different ways of committing the offence).

(2) The sections are—

(a) section 2 (fraud by false representation),

(b) section 3 (fraud by failing to disclose information), and

© section 4 (fraud by abuse of position).

(3) A person who is guilty of fraud is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12

months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both);

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding

10 years or to a fine (or to both).

(4) Subsection (3)(a) applies in relation to Northern Ireland as if the reference to 12

months were a reference to 6 months.

 

 

and the relevant section 3

3 Fraud by failing to disclose information

A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is

under a legal duty to disclose, and

(b) intends, by failing to disclose the information—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

 

You can find the whole act by doing an internet search.

[Kenny Haymes]

There is also of course the Fraud act 2006

Which states:

 

1 Fraud

(1) A person is guilty of fraud if he is in breach of any of the sections listed in

subsection (2) (which provide for different ways of committing the offence).

(2) The sections are—

(a) section 2 (fraud by false representation),

(b) section 3 (fraud by failing to disclose information), and

© section 4 (fraud by abuse of position).

(3) A person who is guilty of fraud is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12

months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both);

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding

10 years or to a fine (or to both).

(4) Subsection (3)(a) applies in relation to Northern Ireland as if the reference to 12

months were a reference to 6 months.

 

 

and the relevant section 3

3 Fraud by failing to disclose information

A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is

under a legal duty to disclose, and

(b) intends, by failing to disclose the information—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

 

You can find the whole act by doing an internet search.

 

Yes - absolutely !

[steven4064]

THis has been discussed a lot elsewhere on the site and I think the general conclusion was that it is not going to get us anywhere. As to Kenny's question about bank T&Cs - they will send them if you ask. If they take too long and your case is coming up then write to their solicitors and say you are requesting them under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©. I did that with NatWest and got them in two days.

 

Steven

 

If this post is helpful, please click the scales

Any opinions are without prejudice & without liability.

Almost everything I know concerning the law I learned from this site

 

[Kenny Haymes]

THis has been discussed a lot elsewhere on the site and I think the general conclusion was that it is not going to get us anywhere. As to Kenny's question about bank T&Cs - they will send them if you ask. If they take too long and your case is coming up then write to their solicitors and say you are requesting them under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©. I did that with NatWest and got them in two days.

 

Steven

 

If this post is helpful, please click the scales

Any opinions are without prejudice & without liability.

Almost everything I know concerning the law I learned from this site

 

 

" As to Kenny's question about bank T&Cs - they will send them if you ask. If they take too long and your case is coming up then write to their solicitors and say you are requesting them under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©. I did that with NatWest and got them in two days."

 

Well done Steve4064 ! Pleased they did send them to you - and your claim was successful. However, 'if' they didn't/hadn't - what then ?

 

Further, what about in the case where county court judgments have been obtained by banks incorporating these penalty charges - would they 'still' supply a T&C copy, in the knowledge that the T&C would mean the CCJ would need to need be set aside + costs & damages ?

 

What about where the CCJ has then been converted into a second charge on property, and the penalty charges become secured with futher legal implications ?

 

Would the bank still provide the relevant T&C to undermine all the CCJs & second charges that had been obtained, plus refund all the legal costs and damages all round ?

 

The whole bank/penalty charges scenario then moves into another stratosphere - which is why they can't afford an adverse judgment !

 

And this is why it is 'not always' in their best interest to provide them ! And as (I believe) in the Berwick case, the bank did not race in with a copy of the T&C in their defence statement/exhibits !

 

All the best, Kenny