N1 help re CCA request failure and Default Notice non-disclosure

[zootscoot]

Sometimes the tone seems to give the impression " we should give the banks some slack"

 

I don't think that attitude has come across at all. All we are concerned with is that the bank act within law. If the bank fails to supply the documents then that is a matter for Trading standandards to deal with any punishment. It is not means to escape a legitimate debt incurred.

[compsoz]

I'll give you an example..

 

Say you borrowed £5000 5 years ago.

Lost your job, called the bank while you were making full payments and asked to reduce them temporarily.. The bank said "yes, Ok that'll be alright.

 

3 payments later they default you without notice...

 

You genuinely find out a year later when you apply for a re-mortgage.

This costs you 6% more than you should be paying £26,000 more over it's term..

 

You cant even get a mobile phone..

You can't change your car.

You've got a business and you need money to expand..

The bank refuse to lend because "You have a default against you"

etc etc etc..

The evidence you have that the default was registered unlawfully..and they refuse to remove it...

 

How much is that worth?

 

All I am saying is that each individual has a different set of circumstances and I, certainly will not try and make out that someone is "Immoral" if they try and get "Justice" for themselves..

 

How much "Justice" is fair is the question they need to answer to themselves.

[zootscoot]

I don't think anyone has suggested that getting a default removed which has wrongly been applied is immoral.

[compsoz]

Whether it's a default wrongly applied or just pure punitive obstruction..which incidentally applies to most peoples grievances on these forums...

 

When it comes to the banks breaking the law ie.. terms of the CCA.

 

I think all bets are off.. After all the General Public is at an enormous disadvantage in the battle with the banks..

Look at our position in relation to them.

They have unlimited legal expertise..They have unlimited funds..

 

The organisations designed to protect us are impotent..

 

The ICO useless

The FSO They'll let you know in 6 months to a year.

Trading Standards ?

The CRA's.. "The Bank says its right. Therefore it is"

 

As you have probably guessed ..I have no sympathy with them.

[HSBCrusher]

Its like this.

 

Consumer action group.

Honest. Playing fair. fighting back within the law, the law is with us. Moral high ground

 

Banks

Acting unlawfully, bullying customers, not a leg to stand on. Moral mire.

 

I am in group 1.

I pay my tax, I pay my debts, I play fair.

People who do not want to repay lawfull debts, you are in the wrong place.

Go join a bank.

[compsoz]

So.... " If you were the individual in the above example, and you were 3 years down the road, exhausted every avenue and could, legally withold payment until they (the bank) fulfilled their Legal obligation ....What would you do ?

 

Nobody is suggesting breaking the Law.

 

On the contrary ... As you have just quoted

 

"fighting back within the law" is exactly the point...

 

If you relax part of the CCA regulations.....ie providing documentation then you might as well dissalow the whole Act while you are on..

 

The CCA was set up with a purpose to protect consumers and Banks alike.. It should be adhered to to the letter.

 

If they break the Law then they don't deserve to be able to enforce the loan..

 

Which other parts of the Act would you want to put to one side on the "Moral Ground"

[HSBCrusher]

You are not going to be able to write this debt off. This missing bit of paper is not going to let anybody off the hook. If you try you will be taken to the cleaners. To agree with this course of action is not only immoral but incredibly stupid, it isn't going to work, nor should it.

I get very upset at the banks, thats why I am here. Thats why we are all here. I dont want to give them a penny more than which they are entitled, and I do not wish anybody else to do so either. I do not wish to "go easy" on them. There are ways and means of fighting them, and of course new ways must be debated, but this particular avenue is not one we can condone.

Tinks, Barracad and Zoot (all more knowledgeable than I) all agree that this is the case.

This is my last word on the matter for what its worth, take it or leave it.

[Tobes]

As I've said before, I think to avoid paying back any debt in full would be wrong, I just wanted someone more knowledgeable than I to say what would happen if a company took someone to court for a simple debt but then failed to produce a credit agreement, having already defaulted on a CCA request.

 

I would advise people not to join the Banks' side, it's so much more fun when you can claim the moral high ground

[compsoz]

It seems to me this Very site was built to offer consumers clear guidance to enforce their rights AS consumers..

 

Every bit of advice given should be regarding their empowerment.

The law should not be seen as open to wishy-washy interpretation.

God I hate Moral / Political correctness.

If a bank can not be bothered to keep a copy of something as fundemental as the original agreement.??? Duhh

They could demand anything they want.

These reclaims for charges on this very site are a case of point...

If they could, the banks would use every technicality they could find, and do , to get out of the bank charges scenario.

 

Do not lose focus on the fact that hundreds of thousands of peoples very lives are been crippled by, Not Bank Charges, but by financially dafamatory, unlawful, frivolous, punitive and excessive information.

 

Anybody who is trying to fight back on these issues need support, and all the help they can get. It's a much harder struggle than claiming bank charges back.

 

Ask Surlybonds, Un1boy, Jimmyfishbob.

 

These people are pushing the boundaries and, point of law for the good of all on this site... Long May It Continue.

As for your thoughts HSBCrusher. "immoral but incredibly stupid" and ...."you are in the wrong place."

 

I don't think you are the one to decide that.

 

Why would a bank need to ask you to sign documentation at all before releasing funds.

Why regarding the text in a default notice is the wording so Exact.

It is there to be followed, By Both Parties.

These laws have been pondered over and put into effect for reasons.

 

The ONLY reason charges are able to be claimed back is because it is a breach of the rules of the Consumer Credit Act.

If you want to be really Moral then you should say to yourself " I'm not claiming charges back as they are my own fault, I went overdrawn,, etc etc

 

Consider the lengths the banks go to to prevent the people on this forum from enforcing ANY of their rights.

[un1boy]

Hi guys,

 

You have all raised some very interesting points, and I have listened to them all. I will wait until Frida y (when they commit an offence) and see what happens.

 

If they do not proiduce the agreement, I will write to them and explain it's unenforceable and get it wirtten off basically.

[dayglo]

and get it written off basically.

 

I seriously doubt this.

[un1boy]

really? do you not think they will?

 

ok - I'll just leave it then!

[compsoz]

Un1boy...

 

Go for it.

 

Worst that can happen

 

They produce the document and then ...They would have to get a judge to continue to ask for the money.

 

I would be tempted, if you haven't already, to issue a SARS request, then when they reply, send a letter back asking "Are you positive you have supplied ALL information.

When they agree they have, I would suggest they would be classed as misleading you if they then later produce it.

 

Again I am not saying that this should be done "just to write the debt off off" for the sake of it but if you have genuine justification... So Be It...

 

Un1boy... This is no different to the legitimate right of individuals to claim back charges..

 

The CCA is there for a reason.. They are breaking the Law... There is no middle ground.....In my opinion of course.

[un1boy]

Good For You..

 

eh? I thought you were supporting em doing it?! Nevermind....

[un1boy]

Just as a quick thing, the problem I have here is that thye have defaulted me, without sending me a Default Notice - that's why I want the default removed, I'm not debt dodging at all.

 

They have until Friday to provide the docs anyway, so I'll post if I get a reply from them!

[kateandpete]

As our cases are pretty similar, take a look at my latest thoughts...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/24736-default-removal-katenandpete-hsbc-3.html#post260890

 

 

You might think i'm being too lenient with them, but I think somewhere down the line you should make them some offer.

Definitely wait until they have committed an offence and keep them on their toes. But before it comes to court make them an offer. The agreement will be unenforceable - so propose a new one on your terms. I'm offering a final settlement. You could do this, or offer to pay them at £5 a week with 0% interest or something. Make it all conditional on removing the default. If they say yes, then great, the default is gone and you have an agreement more favourable to you. If no, then you can show to a court that you've made reasonable effort to settle the dispute. It's win-win.

[compsoz]

Totally agree ...

At it's worst it's a big bargaining chip.

[compsoz]

Incidentally if you feel like pushing a bit harder try this....

 

Send to the directors..

 

Dear Mr lhklklh

I have an ongoing dispute with you concerning a default which was registered incorrectly in 2001.

So far the response from you in relation to this matter has been totally unsatisfactory.

Considering that non-compliance with the terms of the CCA can warrant that, individuals within the company concerned can be held personally responsible if they condoned of, or where aware of the breaches of the Act, (see enclosed text from the CCA) I am now formally making you aware that it is my belief that there have in fact been a number of breaches of this Act, and the Banking Code to which you subscribe.

I give you formal notice that this is my Letter before Court Action.

If this issue is not resolved to my satisfaction by Wed 27th September 2006, I will proceed with my claim through the legal system, in which you will be named as the defendant in my action.

Regards

This is the exact text from the CCA

" Where an offence under this Act has been committed by a body corporate and is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of or to be attributable to any neglect on the part of any director, manager, secretary or similar officer of the body corporate or any person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, he as well as the body corporate shall be guilty of that offence and be liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly."

[jimfishybob]

Just to be clear.

 

My advice was offered without the knowledge that the debt wasn't in dispute.

 

As most have said on this thread, there are other ways to prove you borrrowed money from the original creditor and were this to go to court then these ways would undoubtedly be produced.

 

My advice to discontinue payment until the CCA request is complied with still stands if only to expediate matters. The only thing contestable in court would be the interest rate and charges + the authority to process your data and issue a default in the first place, NOT the amount borrowed.

 

The advice from kateandpete above appears sound and may probably be the best way forward, but then, everyone has an opinion.

 

Flattered as I am to be included in a list of pioneers such as SB, please understand that he and Dayglo are far more knowledgeable on any of these matters than me and I simply learn from them.

[un1boy]

As our cases are pretty similar, take a look at my latest thoughts...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/24736-default-removal-katenandpete-hsbc-3.html#post260890

 

 

You might think i'm being too lenient with them, but I think somewhere down the line you should make them some offer.

Definitely wait until they have committed an offence and keep them on their toes. But before it comes to court make them an offer. The agreement will be unenforceable - so propose a new one on your terms. I'm offering a final settlement. You could do this, or offer to pay them at £5 a week with 0% interest or something. Make it all conditional on removing the default. If they say yes, then great, the default is gone and you have an agreement more favourable to you. If no, then you can show to a court that you've made reasonable effort to settle the dispute. It's win-win.

 

Hi there,

 

This is what I will do, methinks. I'll have a chat with you soon if that's ok kateandpete?

 

Like I say, I want the default removed more than anything. I will be waiting until Friday and then I'll let you know what happens.

[un1boy]

Well guys, tomorrow was the deadline for my CCA request. This is what I got throuh my door today:

______

 

Dear Un1boy

 

Thank you for your letter requesting details of your account application and default notice.

 

Please find enclosed a copy of the application form, signed by yourself in xx.

 

A Default Notice was issued to you xxx. Default Notices are produced by our computer system and we do not retain copies of them.

 

We are not legally obliged to retain a copy of the Default Notice and are only required to retain a record of it on our files.

 

It is a legal presumption that a letter properly addresses to the last known address on file is received in due course and this will apply to your Default Notice.

 

The debt was not sold on and no deed of assignment was issued.

_____

 

Now, the default was my issue here, so does this mean they have to remove it?

 

Also, I asked for the same info for another account, which the default is in dispute too, because they sent that without notifying me.

 

They haven't provided me with the docs asked for the second account, so have they commited an offence on that account?

 

I thought it was a legal requirement for them to produce the DN?!

 

Any ideas? Thanks guys.

[kateandpete]

See this post

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/24736-default-removal-katenandpete-hsbc-3.html#post229126

[zootscoot]

Hi Un1boy,

 

Whilst there is a duty to provide a copy of the original signed agreement under s77/8 of the Act, I don't think there is a similar provision relating to default notices. S.87 simply states that a creditor can not take certain actions unless a default has been issued, but I can't see anything relating to providing a copy of the notice on request.

 

http://www.passprotect.studio400.me.uk/Consumer_Credit_Act_1974.PDF

[kateandpete]

Hi Un1boy,

 

Whilst there is a duty to provide a copy of the original signed agreement under s77/8 of the Act, I don't think there is a similar provision relating to default notices. S.87 simply states that a creditor can not take certain actions unless a default has been issued, but I can't see anything relating to providing a copy of the notice on request.

 

http://www.passprotect.studio400.me.uk/Consumer_Credit_Act_1974.PDF

but surely they must be able to PROVE they have complied with sections 87,88,89. Otherwise they are not entitled to record a default because principle 4 of part 1 DPA says, "Personal data shall be accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date."

 

How can they prove it unless they have a copy of it?

[Tobes]

I think that they don't need necessarily to keep the default, but if they don't, they need to have evidence of it so it can be proven, like, in the end, they don't need a contract to prove you owe them money, as long as they have ther proof e.g. statements though it would make things complicated and show a complete disregard for proper record-keeping and wouldn't help their case.