Are the Banks reading these threads?

[Andrea1967]

Given we have a common link - we've all been (edit)from by the banks - why not set up our own Consumer Action Group Credit Union ?

Here, here - there must be enough of us by now!

[French William]

If bank employees post on here without permission then all 3 sub-sections apply:

 

(a) they are accessing data

(b) it's unauthorised as it's stated in the T&C's

© they know this because it's in the T&C's

 

(a) They are accessing data, but is it classed as 'data held in any computer'? I think a publicly accessible message board would not be included under that umbrella.

 

(b) Simply by you putting it in the T&Cs probably doesn't mean that it is really unauthorised. I would argue that it's a public message board, for anyone to read and have access to the data within. It could also be argued that the T&Cs only apply to members, so if a bank were to read the board without posting then it probably hasn't breached your rules anyway.

 

© If banks do come across the site, but don't register, then in all probability they will not even read the T&Cs, so they may not know that you think their access is unauthorised. I may have this wrong, but doesn't it say that members should read the rules before posting?

 

I'm not trying to be deliberately awkward, more just devil's advocate.

[Movingon]

(a) They are accessing data, but is it classed as 'data held in any computer'? I think a publicly accessible message board would not be included under that umbrella.

 

"Publicly Accessible" except that particular sections of humanity are specifically excluded in the authorising document. Just because you can see it clearly does not authorise you to look.

 

(b) Simply by you putting it in the T&Cs probably doesn't mean that it is really unauthorised. I would argue that it's a public message board, for anyone to read and have access to the data within. It could also be argued that the T&Cs only apply to members, so if a bank were to read the board without posting then it probably hasn't breached your rules anyway.

 

The Terms and Conditions are very clearly those of the website. They are directed at "users" of the website... which includes members, guests, admins, anyone.

 

© If banks do come across the site, but don't register, then in all probability they will not even read the T&Cs, so they may not know that you think their access is unauthorised. I may have this wrong, but doesn't it say that members should read the rules before posting?

 

Ignorance is no defence whatever to a breach of the Law. Never has been, never will be. Banks know this.

[French William]

"Publicly Accessible" except that particular sections of humanity are specifically excluded in the authorising document. Just because you can see it clearly does not authorise you to look.

 

I'm pretty sure you can not display something in such a public domain, and proceed to tell people they are not allowed to look at it. It's tantamount to paying for a billboard to display something, with the note 'bankers are not allowed to look at this' attached. If a banker was then taken to court he would still be allowed to talk about whatever was displayed on the billboard.

 

I think the fact that you can see it clearly most definitely authorises you to look.

 

The Terms and Conditions are very clearly those of the website. They are directed at "users" of the website... which includes members, guests, admins, anyone.

 

Yes, you're probably right on this, but I think my point above still stands. I don't think you can say who is and isn't allowed to look at your website if you make it freely accessible to all on the internet.

 

Could the BNP set up a site full of racist literature and not be taken to court provided they had a rule stating "Entry by the Police Force and their staff is prohibited. Police will be allowed to enter the forum so long as they have permission from the Administrators."????

 

Ignorance is no defence whatever to a breach of the Law. Never has been, never will be. Banks know this.

 

Ignorance generally isn't a legal defence, however in this case the Act specifically requires that a person would only be guilty of an offence if knows that access is unauthorised. Anyway, that points not very stonrg, so I'll conceed that you're probably right on it too.

 

All of the above doesn't answer my very first point. Does information on the internet count as 'data held in any computer'??? I suppose it does literally, but judges are instructed to apply the law in the spirit in which the law was enacted. I rather think that in this case the Act itself is aimed more at 'hackers' who are gaining unauthorised access to data held by another's computer. Not someone who is reading information on the internet.

[BikerPaul]

All of the above doesn't answer my very first point. Does information on the internet count as 'data held in any computer'??? I suppose it does literally, but judges are instructed to apply the law in the spirit in which the law was enacted. I rather think that in this case the Act itself is aimed more at 'hackers' who are gaining unauthorised access to data held by another's computer. Not someone who is reading information on the internet.

 

BY the same argument, spam is legal... since my emal address is there on the internet.

 

Just because you leave your front door open doesn't entitle someone to come in and look around. Likewise with a server on the internet - just because you can access it doesn't give you enttlement to do so. And if you are unauthorised, and still go ahead, you are committing an offence.

[French William]

BY the same argument, spam is legal... since my emal address is there on the internet.

 

Just because you leave your front door open doesn't entitle someone to come in and look around. Likewise with a server on the internet - just because you can access it doesn't give you enttlement to do so. And if you are unauthorised, and still go ahead, you are committing an offence.

 

Most people are at pains to prevent their email address appearing in places it shouldn't, so i'm not sure what your point is there? Email addresses are generally not on public display, and are classed as personal details pertaining to individuals, and therefore not treated the same as publicly displayed data.

 

And I don't think you can really compare this with trespass either.

 

Like I said above, I'm not arguing to be deliberately obtuse, more just a case of being devil's advocate.

 

Whoever's right, I would stringly suggest adding the following to the T&Cs:

 

'If any of these terms are determined to be illegal, invalid or otherwise unenforceable by reason of the laws of any state or country in which these terms are intended to be effective, then to the extent and within the jurisdiction in which that term is illegal, invalid or unenforceable, it shall be severed and deleted from these terms and the remaining terms shall survive, remain in full force and effect and continue to be binding and enforceable.'

[BikerPaul]

Most people are at pains to prevent their email address appearing in places it shouldn't, so i'm not sure what your point is there? Email addresses are generally not on public display, and are classed as personal details pertaining to individuals, and therefore not treated the same as publicly displayed data.

 

Email addresses may not be on public display on the WEB, they certainly are on the Net...

[French William]

Email addresses may not be on public display on the WEB, they certainly are on the Net...

 

[BikerPaul]

 

The World Wide Web (then thing you use with your browser) is only a fraction of the whole Internet.

 

Email, Usenet newsgroups, Gopher, FTP, and hundreds of other services and utilities share the network conenctivity, but the Web is what people think is the whole Internet, as the Web is what they see...

[French William]

The World Wide Web (then thing you use with your browser) is only a fraction of the whole Internet.

 

Email, Usenet newsgroups, Gopher, FTP, and hundreds of other services and utilities share the network conenctivity, but the Web is what people think is the whole Internet, as the Web is what they see...

 

So my email address is publicly displayed for all to see on the net?

[BikerPaul]

So my email address is publicly displayed for all to see on the net?

 

Yours may not be. Mine is...

[caro]

If we are being so open why do we not use our real names on this site? Perhaps I may answer my own question by suggesting that we don't want to be recognised and black listed by other financial institutions.

I'll try not to be too verbose but when I was a youth, my girlfriend and I were thought a bit strange, by our contemporaries, because we had bank accounts.

It was not the "done thing" in working class families.

How things have changed! - now you need a bank account for your benefits and state pension to be paid into.

So what happens if you do get black listed? (unofficially because we wouldn't want the OFT or FSA to know what we were doing would we)

By compelling even the poorest of us to have bank accounts, the Government have ensured that the financial institutions acquire a captive customer base. Only more stringent regulation can counteract this market bias. In the meantime, the Bank Action Group is the only organisation which seems to be acting in support of the consumer.

Keep on frightening them. Let them read the threads. Better still send them copies of the more sensational and articulate contributions. With the writer's consent, naturally.

To quote Shelley from Ozymandias - "Look on my works, ye mighty and despair" but without poor Ozie's Statue's ultimate demise of course.

 

Going way back to the beginning, as I've only just found this thread, I just thought I would give my reason for not using my real name.

 

I don't want everyone knowing my business. The banks already know I'm skint and I'm claiming from them, but I don't want the world and his wife to know what I'm doing and how much I am owed. But I do hope that by sharing my experiences I can help other members as much as they are helping me.

 

I agree that the banks must be looking in. Some of our best members are bank employees, so where did they hear about us. Let's face it we are sharing what information we can gleen from them, and the chances are they are doing the same, and some of our kind bank members are giving great information at personal risk to their livelihoods. It won't change the fact that we have right on our side and thebanks are pooping themselves trying to wriggle out of going to court and intimidate us to discourage us from claiming bank charges.

[Chris M]

In reply to Caro; I was not suggesting there was anything underhand or to be embarrassed about using pseudonims. I was making a point about banks observing who was posting on the site and then taking retaliatory action.

 

I am running a business and I need banking facilities. When I had a downturn in income from the business and I still had DDs and Standing Orders going out I could see everything was going to go "pear shaped" so I emailed my account manager to ask for help and advice. There was no response. Days later I used my internet banking facility to cancel all the DDs and Standing Orders so as to stop any more charges being placed on my account. I then wrote to the bank to complain that they had not assisted me and I wanted the charges refunded because I had asked for help and had not had a response whilst the bank continued to harvest cash from my account.

 

The final upshot was that they closed my account. I had to find another bank and eventually succeded after having been turned down by a couple of banks. I was being open on each application and was told that the previous banking record stood against me. This could have aroused paranoid feelings in me but I resisted.

 

Now I am not as trusting as I was. I have looked at my bank statements over the years and see that I have been charged multi£k. In my naivety I had thought it was all legal and what a naughty boy I had been not to run my account properly and maybe the bank were charging a lot but that was the rules.

 

Thanks to this web site I am learning what to do to claim back the penalty charges. I will be more than happy to make a 10% contribution to running the site when I get a refund. It would cost me a lot more to get professional advice and assistance.

[whistleblowing fairy]

This seems so unclear to me and I'm confused?????

 

Are you against the bank staff (like me) who have debts using this site to help them get refunds on their own personal accounts and until the refunds come through, giving their knowledge to help others???

 

That's not really fair if it is. Its the same as saying a doctor shouldn't get sick because they know how to fix it.

 

I personally couldn't give a monkeys how much profit my empolyer makes or all the other nitty gritty stuff. I only care that come the 16th, they've paid me correctly. or how stupid they look at press conferences when they defend the £20 fee and then backtrack to reduce it to £12.

 

what i wanted was help and support getting my fees refunded, and to help by giving info about the bank i work for that i think people may find useful. but if the attitude is that i'm not welcome on this site because i'm paid by one of the banks, then i don't see why i should risk my job to offer people what i thought was helpful advice

 

Or you against the acutal bank snooping and spying at what is said on this site? which is completely different

[Movingon]

WBF - what we're against is representatives of the bank acting in their official capacity using the information they find on this site either to influence their dealings with us or to influence the court's dealings with us during litigation.

 

People who happen to be paid by the banks, using this site for its legitimate purpose are more than welcome as long as they get the relevant permission from the site owners.

[MARTIN3030]

This seems so unclear to me and I'm confused?????

 

Are you against the bank staff (like me) who have debts using this site to help them get refunds on their own personal accounts and until the refunds come through, giving their knowledge to help others???

 

That's not really fair if it is. Its the same as saying a doctor shouldn't get sick because they know how to fix it.

 

I personally couldn't give a monkeys how much profit my empolyer makes or all the other nitty gritty stuff. I only care that come the 16th, they've paid me correctly. or how stupid they look at press conferences when they defend the £20 fee and then backtrack to reduce it to £12.

 

what i wanted was help and support getting my fees refunded, and to help by giving info about the bank i work for that i think people may find useful. but if the attitude is that i'm not welcome on this site because i'm paid by one of the banks, then i don't see why i should risk my job to offer people what i thought was helpful advice

 

Or you against the acutal bank snooping and spying at what is said on this site? which is completely different

 

 

This is a fair comment and the fact that you are here posting shows the admin ppl here are satisfied all is above board.

It seems there is difficulties for some people in distinguishing whose genuine and who arent but this is a job for the admin and should be theirs alone.

When I started the thread here I had some reservations but since then have come to realise that bank staff can make a contribution and still have to go to tesco / the pub on Saturday night and are really doing a job in which they have been doing maybe for years.Im not talking about execs but front of house counter staff,who take their orders from faceless fatcats.

What I think we should be looking at is this......

If they are managing to read stuff from here then what advantage in a general term are they getting ?

They KNOW the data protect legislation they KNOW court procedures they KNOW lots are claiming but most of all and more importantly they KNOW there is little information they can glean here that will either change the law or reduce the knowledge people are getting.

Basically they cannot stop something that is unstoppable for the moment.

If anything they may actually be learning ways to better deal with the challenges that lie ahead for them.

Letting emotions come into the equasion here is not something that will do the thread any purpose.

I am still waiting actually for someone to post here and say YES of course the banks are reading.......if we can send a man to the moon and back then .......

 

 

 

[maybelline]

I have found the site informative and helpful, the guidance, templates etc have helped immensely by beating a path for the rest to travel. I suppose it depends on how you feel about the banking industry, how do they pay the wages, they make money in unfair ways as we know. No doubt there are ethical issues at the heart of almost every industry, organisations we work for etc, we have to make our own minds up as individuals where we draw the line.

[MARTIN3030]

True but at the end of the day the vast majority of people came to the site to get help to reclaim charges.

The fact that there are some bank staff here has not stopped claims from being settled nor action being continued.

You are right in what you say and as individuals it would be a pretty boring place if we all had the same way of expression.

Having said that the beauty of the site is recognised by how everyone works together and helps eachother and this is something that gets said time and time again.

If its the bankworkers aims to likewise come here to reclaim charges they should not be chastised, it would be very difficult for them to do it alone.

If they have a contribution to make then all the merrier but they are taking risks by being here in the first place and by their own admissions revealing their occupations.

We all strive for the same conclusion and if bank staff are coming here to claim then if the site admin are happy then so we should be.

They are the ones with wisdom to make the judgements and up to now they have done a bloody good job.......you only have to look at the site.

 

 

[Guest Jonnno]

I'm a bank worker and I registered because I found your forums quite interesting.

 

I never bothered to read the T&C's, I've never read the T&C's on any forum I've joined and posted to in the past. I've always just relied on 'netiquette' to guide me on what was OK and what wasn't.

 

Personally I don't think your T&Cs are enforceable because this is a publicly available site and you've taken no steps whatsoever to secure it from public viewing. You could have made registration a requirement before people are allowed to view the forums or indeed the whole site, presumably excluding the home and registration pages, and then in the registration process had people tick a box to say they are not bank staff before they are allowed to register.

 

There are sites out there that I've seen that have copyright stuff available for download that try your idea. They say "If you work for a law enforcement agency you are not allowed to view this website, if you do .... blah blah...". Think that stops the police or FAST or whoever? Nah, not a chance.

 

Anyhow, in deference to the fact that it's your forum and you can choose who you want to allow to register and post, I'd like to request my user account be deleted.

 

Thanks,

Jonnno.

[MARTIN3030]

I'm a bank worker and I registered because I found your forums quite interesting.

 

I never bothered to read the T&C's, I've never read the T&C's on any forum I've joined and posted to in the past. I've always just relied on 'netiquette' to guide me on what was OK and what wasn't.

 

Personally I don't think your T&Cs are enforceable because this is a publicly available site and you've taken no steps whatsoever to secure it from public viewing. You could have made registration a requirement before people are allowed to view the forums or indeed the whole site, presumably excluding the home and registration pages, and then in the registration process had people tick a box to say they are not bank staff before they are allowed to register.

 

There are sites out there that I've seen that have copyright stuff available for download that try your idea. They say "If you work for a law enforcement agency you are not allowed to view this website, if you do .... blah blah...". Think that stops the police or FAST or whoever? Nah, not a chance.

 

Anyhow, in deference to the fact that it's your forum and you can choose who you want to allow to register and post, I'd like to request my user account be deleted.

 

Thanks,

Jonnno.

 

 

The site is of course available for all to read.

 

This has not stopped the banks from settling claims !!!

This has not stopped other bank staff from visiting and even seeking advice on claiming.........

Its a shame that you have had nothing constructive to contribute to the site.

 

Saying that its probably better off without comments like this

[Guest Jonnno]

The site is of course available for all to read.

thanks, glad you concede the point..

 

 

This has not stopped the banks from settling claims !!!

This has not stopped other bank staff from visiting and even seeking advice on claiming.........

Nor should it and I never said it should... [deleted]

 

Its a shame that you have had nothing constructive to contribute to the site.

Did you even read any of my other posts? [deleted]

 

Saying that its probably better off without comments like this

I couldn't agree more [deleted]

 

[MODERATED: Personal/aggressive comments removed]

[maybelline]

sorry to see so much upset, whatever the rights or wrongs of any forums, their users and so on it is sad to see that people feel hurt, maybe that is a reflection of just how much the power of money has over our lives, as many posts reflect, it is fundamental to be able to support ourselves and our loved ones so strong feelings will no doubt be under the surface at some level, in the end we all want the same thing dont we.

[Guest NATTIE]

Jonno- I don't conceal who i work for. During the day I enforce charges that i know are unlawful. By night I try to help. If we are bank workers we work for the customer. The T&C's are clear. Either you help or hinder. I'm not claiming charges back but I have a voice outside of my daily role. People want fairness, so if you want to help join me and others who risk their jobs to do what we do then do so. It's your choice, what do you want to do?

I add a further comment, call things as you see them but try and help people who may not understand a concept or charge or how it works. Not everyone understands why they are charged. We know colleagues are incompetant, we know the quickest way to get things done so do 1 thing today, be of service to those that help pay your wages. I don't agree with all posts on this site but respect people for their views.

Remember people don't always spell banker with a "b" so be polite, it costs nothing.

[MARTIN3030]

Jonno- I don't conceal who i work for. During the day I enforce charges that i know are unlawful. By night I try to help. If we are bank workers we work for the customer. The T&C's are clear. Either you help or hinder. I'm not claiming charges back but I have a voice outside of my daily role. People want fairness, so if you want to help join me and others who risk their jobs to do what we do then do so. It's your choice, what do you want to do?

I add a further comment, call things as you see them but try and help people who may not understand a concept or charge or how it works. Not everyone understands why they are charged. We know colleagues are incompetant, we know the quickest way to get things done so do 1 thing today, be of service to those that help pay your wages. I don't agree with all posts on this site but respect people for their views.

Remember people don't always spell banker with a "b" so be polite, it costs nothing.

 

This is a very well balanced well illustrated and sensible reply.

It reflects the thinking I am sure of the majority of everyday down to earth staff who have chosen to come here for the best part to help,because they feel better in a position to do so than say ....the postman !

I cannot understand the benefit or need to post remarks like that although to give credit he could have remained silent and been unproductive in contrast to those who do contribute.

 

To those who remain and whose aims are to genuinly assist as well as sort out their own claims I say thank you.

My earlier suspicions were quite quickly balanced in the knowledge that for the most part bank staff have been shown that if their employers were innocent as charged then sites such as this would not exist with such gusto !!

 

[barney2002]

I thought I would throw in my '2 penneth worth' on this. I think we have to remember that the people in the banks are just like you and me and just happen to work for the people we are fighting against. They are not, on the whole, paid massive wages and if they want to claim their charges back then good luck to them and if they want to help this forum then they should be allowed to.

 

What this website is trying to do is common knowledge to the banks, we do not have anything to hide and I believe a worker in a bank does not really give a toss as to what happens within their company, would you???. They make billions, the worker gets paid and follows orders, end of, dirty job but someone's got to do it right??. I used to sell finance for a major car maker at sometimes ridiculously high rates - this would make payments higher than the high street could offer but it was my job and I had bills to pay. Now, if my friends need advice I can help them as I know the 'game'.

 

If the T&C's are so important to view then make them more accessible and as someone said before, make them a 'tick box' before registration.

 

Anyway, enough of my waffle, I've got a bank to take to court!!!

 

Later:cool: