grAbbey National 'v' Hartnell - Any advise appreciated!

[marmite-girl]

ok.. im throwing this one open!!

 

im stuck between a rock and a hard place.. and need some guidance.

might be a bit lenghty and may go over ground which you already know, but please stick with me.

 

firstly, the deadline for abbey to submit a bundle passed on friday 27th. (dooms day!)

 

I had previously been offered £2400 from abbey (claim £3150 inc interest, fees and now wasted costs) - i refused their offer.

where do i now stand??

 

people are telling me I won because failed to comply with the court order - so far, the judge at Wrexham is continuing with cases.. when i go to court on 10th.. is he going to say i have won based on the fact abbey didnt comply?

or can mr judge man still turn round and say they will await the outcome of the (effin) test case.. or does the fact abbey didnt comply outrule that?

also - (till with me?) as i refused the offer of £2400 from abbey - does this mean it no longer stands.. they say on their website then will honor any offer they have made?!

 

i might be coming across as a bit dolly dumb.. but my situation doesnt seem to fit the mould of any other cases i am reading about.

 

any help or advice would be gratefully received - what would you do in my situation.. million dollar question!

 

Marmite x

[marmite-girl]

bump

[Camdenite]

I'm pretty sure I read that Abbey we're honouring all offers previously made for a period of two months. I'll try and find the thread.

 

As I've said before, I think the banks are using this period of uncertainty to get people to accept the usual 65% offers they make prior to court.

 

I'll check on the two months thread and get back to you. If it is the case, you can delay your decision until you know what the judge has decided.

[marmite-girl]

hi - thanks for that camdenite.. i too had read that they would honor any settlements they had offered.. but wasnt sure if this included those who refused settlements?? im guessing not.. which then puts me in that category!

not to worry - with the help and confidence of the lovely people on here.. im sort of coming round to the fact that as abbey failed to comply with the judges orders, then i have 'won' by default?! (maybe) - will prepare myself to actually go to court and then see what happens.. i guess its out of my hands now really.. and will just have to go with the 'process'

thanks to all for the help given.. i know i have been a pain!!

chin chin

marmite x

[ICY]

The way i look at it, if you have refused an offer, then you were not willing to accept that offer anyway, so why would you want to go back on that now, especially as lots of courts are saying everything is continuing as normal.

 

I am not telling anyone what to do, it is everyones own choices, all i am saying is i wouldnt like to give them the satisfaction of letting think you have ground you down

[marmite-girl]

you're right ICY.. i think maybe at the back of my mind i am holding that offer (which i refused!) as a safety net!

my confidence swings.. hourly.. from rats, should have taken the money.. to.. no, i'm going all the way.. stuff it!!

my court is one of the ones which claims to be carrying on as normal.. i think maybe its just the court process that is scaring me.. and the likelyhood (due to the test case) of it now being settled before the hearing is very slim.

onward and upward.

M x

[marmite-girl]

hello all.. not heard a peep from abbey.. so preparing myself to attend my hearing on friday (12 noon) - have rung the court yesterday afternoon.. and its business as usual, so the lady on the desk told me to attend and see what the judge has to say!!

i have printed out the guidance notes on 'got a court date' - 'going to court' and 'bringing your case to court' all really uselful, but doesnt calm the nerves any!!

i just dont want to turn up.. get asked one simple question and mess it up!!

any top tips.. or gems of wisdom for me at this late stage.. please!!

do i need to prepare anything else.. ive got my bundle and my bundle of nerves!!

also - likely outcome.. in essence abbey didnt comply with the judges orders to submit documents relyed on in court.. i sent that nice letter to the judge last week, pointing this out.. any more i can do at this stage..

.. so many questions.. running out of time!!

any help.. much appreciated

thanks - marmite x

[bluewillow07]

Have a large drink and calm yourself. Then just hope the judge is a nice chap.

Only joking wishing you lots of luck.

[marmite-girl]

i might just try that!

a quick thought.. i keep seeing on quite a few threads, that when abbey (other lame banks are available!) dont comply with the court order one should fill out a form N225 requesting judgement?? is this what i should be doing.. or it it too late.. or does this not apply to my case?

any ideas?

[marmite-girl]

has anyone got any ideas about filling in the N225 request for judgement??

sorry to bump this one back up the list.. but friday looms close and im getting every twitchy!

[marmite-girl]

morning all

a sleepless night, fretting over my court case TOMORROW!!! yikes.

still nothing from abbey - and at this late stage, i doubt there will be.

please please, can anyone tell me what to expect tomorrow when i go to the court, have had a read through the guides on here, but nothing comes close to experience.. anyone?

put me out of my misery!!

marmite x

[psm]

have you looked at GOING TO COURT reproduced below GOOD LUCK but i doubt they will turn up.

 

Going to Court

 

Check the time and the date. Be there and don't be late.

Wear smart clothing.

Take a notepad and a couple of pens.

Have your papers well organised in a ring binder with separators and/or marked post-its

Have a second ring binder (different colour) containing two copies of each of the papers which you have in your main ring binder. These are in case you need to give any papers to the judge or to the other side.

If the judge asks to see any paper from you then give him what he wants and offer a copy to the other side.

If you want the judge to see a document then also give a copy to the other side as well.

The judge is addressed as "Sir" or "Madam"

The proceedings on the small claims track are usually in a largish office with a T shaped desk. The judge will sit at the same level as you at the top of the T. You and your opponent will sit on either side of the "leg" of the T.

 

When you arrive at the court you will see some notice boards with the court lists on them.

Find your name and note which court number you will be in and at what time. Go to that court.

 

Find the usher who will be a person in a gown with a clipboard. Introduce yourself to the Usher and tell him/her that you are there "in person" (acting for yourself). Also ask if your opponents have arrived yet.

The Usher will mark you down as arrived and then you wait you turn to be called. If you know who the opponents are, go to them and introduce yourself. Ask their names and make a note.

 

Be polite but don't try to discuss the case unless they want to.

Don't make any deals at this stage, BUT see below.

 

Go and find a place to sit and try and relax.

 

When you are called, follow the usher through to the Judge's room. When you enter you will be shown to your place.

 

Bid the judge "Good morning Sir / Madam."

 

Conducting the case

Normally as the claimant, you would introduce yourself as the claimant and introduce your opponent giving his name and who he is acting for. You remain sitting throughout the proceedings.

As the judge is aware that you are in person, he may well just start and take the initiative.

 

You will not be sworn in but the judge may swear you or your opponent in later if he feels that he needs to or he is asked to for some reason.

 

As the claimant you will have to explain you case first. Speak clearly and slowly. It is very easy to go too fast. The judge may be taking notes so don't go too fast for the judge. Stop frequently so that the judge has time to catch up.

 

Tell your story.

 

Show your statements (or better still a schedule of the charges which you have paid)

 

Explain why you object to the charges.

 

Explain to the judge what are the cases and the statutes which you are relying on (you will have warned the court and the other side as to what cases and statutes you will relying upon in your claim. You should have copies of these for the judge to see) highlighted at the relevant passages. He may not want to see them.

 

Explain to the judge what evidence you have which makes you believe that he should decide for you. Just saying that it is obvious that bouncing a DD can't cost £35 is not good enough.

 

Explain to the judge what particular hardships you have suffered as a result of the charges - defaults, loss of home, illness etc.

 

When you think that you have made out your case, tell the judge that you have finished.

The judge may ask the other side if they have any questions to ask you.

 

The judge will then invite the other side to reply.

 

They will explain the arguments which they have laid out in their defence and will go on to explain why you have not made out your case.

 

You should pay attention. Make brief notes of any point which you want to refer back to.

When they have finished you may then ask them questions.

 

You should at least ask them questions which confirm your story.

Are the charges really the cost of bouncing a cheque / a failed direct debit etc?

How do you know?

Do you set the charges?

Who does?

If you don't know who does then how do you know that these are the correct charges?

Where is the person who sets them - why isn't he here today?

You don't actually have any direct knowledge of the charging process, do you?

Is the bouncing process automated?

How many times a year is a direct debit bounced?

What was the cost of setting up the system?

When was it set up?

This means that it has been used against 20 million people since it was introduced? (Do rough maths)

This means that it has cost the bank about 50 pence per person? (You have to do some rough maths here)

Is there any manual intervention in the bouncing process?

If yes, then how is it done?

In every case?

How is the manual intervention recorded?

Show us some evidence of it.

"But I asked for a data Protection disclosure of evidence of manual intervention in my account and you told me that there wasn't any." (Produce letter to court and one for opponent).

(If I got an answer like that then I would probably stop and ask the judge to swear the opponent and then ask him if he had direct knowledge of the answers he had given and if he wanted to reconsider any of them.)

Alternatively if you have a letter to someone else which shows no manual intervention then show that to the judge and ask him to swear the opponent. Then put the question to the opponent again but under oath.

 

The rules about asking questions is that you only ask questions to which you already know the answer.

You are not asking questions in order to find out information in order to build your case. You should have done that before you got into court.

You are asking questions in order to draw out the story in a way which you believe will bring the judge round to your way of thinking.

 

If your question produces a good answer then leave it. The point is made. Move on to your next point.

 

Because you are acting in person the judge will probably assist you to make your points. And also he may ask his own questions.

 

Don't forget that the purpose of your questioning is not suddenly to produce some earth-shattering truth. It is merely to shake the defendant's evidence up so that the judge is unsure of it.

 

At the end of the defendant's case, the judge may ask you if you have anything else you want to say. You can give a little summary if you want but better not to waste time. Try and correct anything which you think the defendant said which was incorrect or unfair.

 

The judge will give a little summary of what he has heard and what he has decided.

 

If you have won, ask for costs of travel. You can also say that you have spend, say, 30 hours preparing the case. He may give you an allowance towards it. When you leave the court. Be polite to the other party and go home.

 

If you have lost than leave the court when the judge indicates. Be polite to the other side and go home and kick the cat.

 

 

This scenario and these questions are not a script. You must be thinking and responding for yourself

[ohoh4312]

Hiya marmite

 

There are a few who have actually been to Court - trying to find them for you.

 

Have you read Rekas' thread? If so I apologise, if not here is his account of the hearing:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-893720.html

 

I'll keep looking, but in the meantime don't panic (easy for me to say, I know)- you'll be fine

 

Lotsa luv

 

Jo xx

[marmite-girl]

thanks psm & jo

i have gone through the advice on here.. useful as a document, but not sure how i will cope when face with the judge!

its the bits that say.. 'tell your story' and 'explain why you object to the charges' and 'explain to the judge what are the cases and the statutes which you are relying on' and 'explain to the judge what evidence you have which makes you believe that he should decide for you'

all rather daunting!

i really want him to just focus on the fact that abbey failed to comply with his orders and take it from there!! maybe thats wishful thinking!

cant beleive its actually come ot this!!

thanks again

marmite x

[ohoh4312]

This makes good reading too:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1062373.html

 

I agree with you though - the fact that they have blatantly abused the Judicial system - again - should be enough grounds to have the defence struck out without you having to argue your corner.

 

 

But I don't know enough about the whole process to really advise you further.

 

 

I will keep looking - chin up

 

 

Jo xx

[ICY]

Marmite i am sure you will be fine, we are all behind you, as long as you have done all your research and studied then it will all come back to you, it may be worth making some notes about what you need to say ect and take them with you.

 

We are all routing for you

[marmite-girl]

cheers jo - really helpful.. thanks.

 

tempted to ring the court again to see if there has been any changes after this 'blanket stay' announcement.. but worried they will say 'oh yes love, yours has been stayed, so dontbother turning up' - think ive got this far.. i actually want to go and get it over with.. whatever the outcome!

 

marmite xx

[marmite-girl]

cheers icy

im sure you are right.. im going to make some notes tonight and go through it all once again - then tomorrow, it in the hands of someone else!

the support on here has been amazing and i would not have got this far without all the advise and backing.

thanks to you all.. will keep you all updated!

marmite x

[psm]

if they do turn up, was that a pig flying by, you can always feign illness ask for an adjournment and call in the boys from CAG. Have you tried to contact a local COURT BUDDIE It is scarry but it is what we have been pushing for, worse things could happen your case could have been stayed. I imagine you just need to use your witness statement as a scripit, as it contains everything you are relying on to prove your case. Re read it and make notes in the margin to help steady your nerves. If you are questioned it probably will be concerned with what is in your bundle. The questions you have just posed are dealt with in the witness statement find the relevant case law or paragraph in your statement and use a "stick it" with key words on it to mark it.

[ohoh4312]

Here's another:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-884137.html

 

On the point of the stay, the Court have a duty to inform you of any developments, so as you have not heard then presume it's business as usual.

 

I'd come with you if I could, but it's a bit too far for a day-trip!! But I will be there in spirit, along with the whole of CAG

 

Lotsa luv

 

Jo xx

[ICY]

Have a look at post number 24

[marmite-girl]

small update:

just got home to be greeted by the letter from abbey, which seems to have been gracing many a doormat today!

basically, then same as everyone elses.. saying they are asking for a stay on all court cases.

im just going to go to the court tomorrow, as planned and see what happens. done lots of reading today, made notes and am ready for whatever may be thrown at me.

good luck to all of you out there.. dont lose heart - just take comfort in the fact that you are not alone.

chin chin

marmite x

[charleyfarley]

m-g,

 

hope it goes well for you tomorrow.................we'll all be thinking about you. Just try not to be too over-awed by everything. I know clarion48 went to court on a different matter, so it may well be worthwhile pm'ing her to hear what happened, and what the procedure was.

 

[KnellyK]

Yes Marmite girl, I hope it goes well for you too, you never know if you turn up and Abbey don't the court might judge in your favour!! :)

 

Good Luck and don't forget to report back!

[marmite-girl]

thanks everyone.. i shall report back as soon as i get back to the office after my ordeal.

im think im going to treat it like a meeting.. i have all the facts, ive done everything i need to.. to the letter, in the timescales given.. its in the hands of the judge now.

going to carry on reading up a bit more then attempt to get a good nights sleep - got my smart clothes ready shoes polished and all my bits in order (so to speak!)

thanks again everyone.. watch this space.. marmite will return! x