£38 For a DD when its not my fualt!

[morsy]

I just had a £38 charge for a failed DD. The DD in question was taken a week early and for twice the amount it should have been. The DD was set up in March and this is the first payment on it (coz they forgot to take Aprils payment and forgot to let me know they are taking 2 lots this month).

 

Now surly if the originator claims a DD for the wrong amount or on the wrong date then the DD guarantee should cover you and the bank should refund any charges.

 

Well NOT Nat West they told me it is not them at fault it is the originator for processing it wrong so I need to reclaim form the originator. Now the DD was only for £31 and it put me overdrawn by £15.

 

This is the first time I have ever had a charge on this account in the 2 years I’ve had it and they still will not budge!

 

Any other ideas or suggestions before I fax them an LBA?

[BankFodder]

You looked at the direct debit guarantee which is linked in the library. Star by reading that. You could try and write your bank on the basis of the direct debit guarantee that ultimately they will probably respond and say go to the ombudsman -- which will be a complete waste of time.

 

I suggest you send them a preliminary letter giving them 14 days and pointing out that you are relying on the direct debit guarantee. If they don't respond or are they don't respond satisfactorily then send them a letter before action and then make a claim. This assumes of course that you are able to show conclusively that the direct debit failures are their fault

[morsy]

Well the mess up with the DD is down to the originator who I phoned and they have accepted responsibility for setting the DD up wrong and not collecting April’s payment.

 

I spoke to the phone banking people, the branch and customer relations and they all have refused to repay the £38. This is why I hate DD, but if you don't pay by DD you end up paying more (i.e. mobile phone co charge £3 a month for non DD, BT charges £12 more a year for non DD etc) but when it goes wrong then...

 

I have written to Nat West explaining the situation to them via Fax giving them 7days to respond. Then I will LBA and then follow the rest of the procedure...

 

My only problem is I have a basic A/C so I can't go overdrawn as I’m on Income Support due to being in and out of hospital and unable to work (long story). £38 is half my weekly income just gone, so now I don't have enough to live on (food, pay bills etc) so the chances of going overdrawn are increased. I have explained this to Nat West who doesn’t give stuff!

[lookinforinfo]

You should inform the bank that the mandate they have is to pay £31 on or around

a certain date per month [and that does NOT mean 1 week early].

Even if you had £1000 in your account, the d/d should not have been paid. The

bank did not have any authority to pay that amount on that day. And on that basis,

they should refund the £38 since they do not have a mandate to pay the d/d.

 

It would be interesting to know on what grounds the company that made the mistake

are refusing to make amends to you. They have made three mistakes;

not putting through last months d/d; not telling you that they were putting two

months through; and putting the d/d through a week early. it's when things go

wrong that you see companies in their true colours. What they need is one of those

crusading journalists to give them a hard time in their newspaper.

[morsy]

I have told the bank that the DD is for 15.50 the originator has claimed £31 two months together (April and May). They have taken it a week early as well.

 

So two breaches of the DD (wrong amount, wrong date) third breach is that the originator failed to notify me that they were taking two payments in one DD.

 

The bank says that this is not their fault and the charges stand and I need to reclaim them from the originator.

 

The originator has admitted the error and has told my bank that they have made an error the bank still refuse to refund me the £38. The originator has agreed to refund me the £38 upon production of proof that the charges are a result of their error. It can take a week or so to get them refunded by the originator.

[lookinforinfo]

I am delighted for you. At least one company has seen fit to make amends for their

error.

Now that they have admitted their mistake, you should point this out to the bank.

If they returned the d/d through lack of funds, they were wrong to do so, as

they had no instructions to pay. So it should have been returned unpaid for something

like "exceeds mandate", or "no mandate to pay", and you should not have

incurred charges, nor your character maligned. That way, you get your charges

refunded straight away, rather than waiting a week or more.

Amazing how all these companies want your money right now, but refunds .....

different matter.

[morsy]

Yes as far as the bank see it 'I have failed to operate my account within the agreed terms'.

 

You should inform the bank that the mandate they have is to pay £31 on or around

a certain date per month [and that does NOT mean 1 week early].

Even if you had £1000 in your account, the d/d should not have been paid. The

bank did not have any authority to pay that amount on that day. And on that basis,

they should refund the £38 since they do not have a mandate to pay the d/d.

 

I said that to Nat West, they replied that DD are for varying amounts and as such the bank has know way of knowing if the amount claimed is correct as the originator can ask for any amount (i.e. it may not be a fixed amount). They have a mandate between the originator and me which has not been cancelled. So therefore the guarantee only requires them to refund amounts claimed by and paid to the originator. As the bank has not paid the DD they got nothing to refund. The guarantee does not cover charges.

[lookinforinfo]

If you don't have, or can't find your copy of the d/d instructions, you may have

to ask the originator to read the details to you. Does it specify an exact amount per month,

and when is it supposed to be claimed from your bank. If either of the details do

not coincide with the date it was claimed, or the amount, then the d/d was

wrongly returned by the bank, and charges should not have been levied.

Some d/d's may have unspecified amounts but did yours? Banks are not above

being economical with the truth, so check out the details of the d/d.

[morsy]

If you don't have, or can't find your copy of the d/d instructions, you may have to ask the originator to read the details to you. Does it specify an exact amount per month, and when is it supposed to be claimed from your bank. If either of the details do not coincide with the date it was claimed, or the amount, then the d/d was wrongly returned by the bank, and charges should not have been levied. Some d/d's may have unspecified amounts but did yours? Banks are not above being economical with the truth, so check out the details of the d/d.

 

I have the DD mandate and it states £15.50 per month twice!

 

I went into my local Nat West armed with my DD mandate and their letter outline their charges which have put me overdrawn (only for 24 hours) also states that interest is payable on the overdrawn amount (£24.29).

 

I was given the blurb that it’s not the banks error; it’s the originators fault the bank can't be held responsible (yawn).... I then point out the DD guarantee which states that 'If an error is made by the originator or your bank you are guaranteed a FULL and IMMEDIATE refund from your branch of the amount paid.' This is printed on the DD mandate.

 

The branch staff then went off to see the manager as ONLY the manager can authorise a refund. He/She refused saying that as it was not paid there is nothing to refund and the DD guarantee does not cover charges. So I then asked for the Manager to come out from hiding to tell me in person only to be told they were busy with other appointments (how convenient). To cut the long story short I have an appointment to see the manager tomorrow!

[lookinforinfo]

What does the d/d mandate say about the date? It may also mention variable

dates but it means that it wil be taken on a specific date with a variation to allow

for bank holidays etc. Check with the originator whether a claim a week early

comes within the meaning of the variable term if there is one.. I don't believe it does, since it is too far from the specified date, and it is early, not late, which

makes it more wrong.

Also ask them where they believe they were wrong within the terms of the direct

debit regulations in presenting the d/d when they did. eg the amount should have been £15.50 only, they should have presented it on the due date. And as they

had presented the d/d for the wrong amount on the wrong day, would the bank have been correct to pay the cheque had it done so.? Ideally you want them to say that the bank should not have paid it.

 

I assume that the bank has declined the d/d on the grounds of insufficient funds.

When the correct response should have been to decline on the grounds that the bank had no mandate to pay it. They have defamed your character by their

wrongful action and divulged as a result of refusing payment, financial details about you in contravention of the data protection act 1988.

In a nutshell they have told the

originator that you had less than £31 in your account, when it was not their duty

to divulge any information about you, because the d/d had been wrongly applied for.

 

Armed with that info. you can explain to your idiot manager where he is wrong.

Do not tell him that the originator has agreed to repay. Just tell him the

circumstances of where the originator made the initial mistakes and how the bank

compounded them by returning the d./d for the wrong reason.

In addition, this was the first d/d applied for by this company so the other thing wrong with it was they did not apply in April for a payment. Nothing was right about

this d/d. The bank has no right to assume that the May payment was an

amalgamation of the two since they have

no way of knowing if you had paid the previous month in cash. They have to

stick to the terms of the mandate-which they did not do. It was not your fault

that the originator made the errors, and even if you had more than enough money in the account, the bank should still not have paid the d/d, and you should not have been liable for any charges.

If he is still sticking to his guns, then bring in the breach of the data protection act

and that when banks have made an error, they are required by law to refund the

charges relating to that error. And they have also defamed you, by returning the d/d for the wrong reason.

Ideally you need him to agree that the d/d was returned for the wrong reason and

the rest falls into place that much easier..

 

Good luck tomorrow.

[morsy]

Well I ran through the arguments one that the DD was incorrectly processed wrong amount wrong date etc that the originator has agreed its there error. The manager accepted that, so you think battle one.... oh no far from it... as it the originators fault it’s down to them to compensate me. They refuse to repay DD charges etc as the originator was at fault, it not my fault it’s not the banks fault it’s the originators fault so why charge me not the originator? Apparently they can do that they can only charge me as it’s my account and it went overdrawn.

 

I explained that I have had the account nearly 2 years and have never gone over drawn or had any charges etc. Any way the manger looks at my account and the charges has already been refunded yesterday interesting as everyone so far has refused to do. The manager also agreed that any debt interest that I may be charged will also be refunded.

 

So in the end I got my charges and any interest back but they refunded it as a 'gesture of good will'. Nat West still maintains that they in future will not refund any charges in cases like this.

 

I explained that if I had a DD for 100 and the originator claimed 1000 in error then surely Nat West customer could not be held responsible for overdrawn charges? I was advised that in that instance they would treat it as fraud. So in that case then why is Nat West not treating this as fraud? Answer I agree that I owe the originator £31 and they have now refunded me … now so case closed (well not put quite as blunt as that!) Nat West says I should put a complaint into the originator.

[morsy]

Well I ran through the arguments one that the DD was incorrectly processed wrong amount wrong date etc that the originator has agreed its there error. The manager accepted that, so you think battle one.... oh no far from it... as it the originators fault it’s down to them to compensate me. They refuse to repay DD charges etc as the originator was at fault, it not my fault it’s not the banks fault it’s the originators fault so why charge me not the originator? Apparently they can do that they can only charge me as it’s my account and it went overdrawn.

 

I explained that I have had the account nearly 2 years and have never gone over drawn or had any charges etc. Any way the manger looks at my account and the charges has already been refunded yesterday interesting as everyone so far has refused to do. The manager also agreed that any debt interest that I may be charged will also be refunded.

 

So in the end I got my charges and any interest back but they refunded it as a 'gesture of good will'. Nat West still maintains that they in future will not refund any charges in cases like this.

 

I explained that if I had a DD for 100 and the originator claimed 1000 in error then surely Nat West customer could not be held responsible for overdrawn charges? I was advised that in that instance they would treat it as fraud. So in that case then why is Nat West not treating this as fraud? Answer I agree that I owe the originator £31 and they have now refunded me … now so case closed (well not put quite as blunt as that!) Nat West says I should put a complaint into the originator.

[lookinforinfo]

Good for you-well done. It's a shame you couldn't get him to concede that the

d/d was returned for the wrong reason. That way you could have got the bank

to write and explain to the originator that the d/d should not have been returned

for insufficient funds or whatever, and that you are a customer in good standing with the bank.

Now, I think it better to write to the originator, rather than phone.

Something along the lines of...

You may recall agreeing to reimburse me the £38 bank charge. I am writing to

inform you that the bank has finally agreed to cancel the charge themselves "as

a gesture of goodwill". They did however point out that the errors were yours,

and it has cost me numerous phone cals, time, two visits to the bank and no little

amount of stress to finally sort the matter out.

I will leave the decision of how you wish to make amends to me up to your own

good judgement.

In the meantime, would you be good enough to represent the d/d for £31.

................................................................................................................

 

 

And hopefully they might make the connection.

 

PS If they do represent the d/d as £31, you should inform the bank that it is ok to pay it.

[morsy]

This topic was closed on 11 March 2019.

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