ILLEGAL CCJ on ACCOUNT - DESPERATE!**WON AT LAST**

[electric lemon]

Hi Laiste,

 

Just a quickie.

 

In paragraph 1, of POC, 5th line down, that should read 7th March 2007, as by mistake I put a '&'.

 

 

Another thing. Did you require the amount in paragraph 1 ?

Sorry!

[Laiste]

Hi Electric,

 

It's good you're around today, as I'll probably be back and forth with Q's. I need you to check some information on the Default Notice, as certain things can invalidate it.

 

Firstly, I note you said it was issued by GE Capital. Did this happen before the a/c was assigned to CL Finance? Do you know what date the assignment took place? Just an aside, did you receive notice in writing from GE Capital that the a/c was to be assigned?

 

Does the DN have your full postal address inc. postcode? Does your name and address appear correctly? Does the DN also contain GE's full address inc. postcode? What date is on the DN? What date does it say you have until to remedy the breach?

 

Would I be correct in thinking that penalty charges have been added to the a/c prior to you receiving the DN? The charges may be detailed as administrative charges for example. Each Company describes them differently but they amount to the same thing which is a penalty where you have perhaps missed a pmt, gone over your limit, had a dd returned, you get the picture! Sorry to ask so many Q's, but it's necessary for the defence!

 

Laiste.

[electric lemon]

Hi Laiste,

 

Info as follows:

 

A). Default Notice was issued on 22nd March by ...Letter says, GE Money, with address at bottom as P.O. Box 700, Leeds, LS99 2BD. States GE Money is a trading name of GE Capital Bank Limited.

 

B) Unfortunately, all name & address of mine is correct as is account number.

 

C) The default notice was issued before it was assigned to CL Finance.

 

D) I received NO NOTICE from GE Capital that the a/c was to be assigned. One day I had a normal statement & the next day I recieved a default notice from GE Capital!

 

E) The Default Notice state that I had until the 8th to pay in full or call with payment proposals.

 

F) I have written evidence from the solicitors headed - Notice of Assignment, dated 9th March. It states that they have an assignment dated 7th March made between Cl Finance & GE Capital Bank Ltd & assigned to CL Finance for the said sum of £****

 

G) I know that this probably cant be submitted as its classed as 'heresay', but for what its worth, a girl whom I spoke to at Howard Cohen Solicitors the day that I received the CCJ, said that GE had passed the debt to Viking Debt collectors on the 6th March, before the said time that GE Capital had given me to respond/pay!!!!! She was quoting from paperwork in front of her, & I would presume that as they have to show all paperwork pertaining to this situation in Court it would show up.

 

H) Yes, there have been charges to the account for returned cheque/late payments etc.

 

Phew!

 

 

 

I then called the collections people, who unbelievably told me that GE had sold the debt on the 6th to them!!!! And,.......that GE money had put in for a CCJ on the 7th!!

 

 

INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dont forget, GE clearly stated in the letter that I had until the 8th to contact them & make proposals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHICH I DID!!!

 

Are they in any type of breach????

 

How can they do this when I made proposals by the 6th, & arent they in breach of something as they did all this anyway before the 8th?????

[electric lemon]

Whoops!

 

I forgot that I had copied & pasted that last little bit after the "Phew!". It was from a previous thread when I first got here & was clearly infuriated by it all!!

[electric lemon]

Just another question Laiste,

 

When would I say to the Court that I want a transfer to my local court because I am a 'litigant in person'?

 

And am I at any stage going to request a stay because the account is in dispute due to waiting for documents from the original creditor that are necessary for my defence??

 

If Im talking a load of gobbledy-gook then poke me???!!!

Its just that I remember a post from previous mentioning this?

 

Thanks.

[Laiste]

Hi Electric,

 

Regarding your last post, we will ask for a stay as there is very little you can do without the relevant info. It is not incumbent upon you to ask for the matter to be transferred to your local Court. If you are granted a stay and it is subsequently lifted, info having been provided, it will automatically be transferred to your local County Court.

 

I have noticed in an earlier post today and previously you mention having received a CCJ. I just want to clarify that a CCJ is the judgment that is entered against a person, where they to lose the case, which isn't what you've received thus far. I assume what you are referring to is the County Court claim issued to you? I want to clear this up for others reading your thread that may be a little baffled by this!;-)

 

On to other matters, the DN was dated the 22nd March, do you remember what date you actually received it? The reason I ask is that they are supposed to give you 14 clear days to remedy any breach otherwise it is invalid. I have seen comical situations where the date on the DN and the date for compliance give the requisite 14 days, but don't allow for postage, so in effect it is dated and would have to be received on the very same day, priceless! Companies employ people that can't count! Am I right in believing the DN was sent by normal post not r/d or g/d?

 

I am writing up the defence now, if you can let me know the date you received the DN, I think I have all I need then. I'll get back to you if I've forgot anything! It won't take me too long to draft it.

 

Laiste.

[Laiste]

Hi,

 

Can you remember from statements exactly what the penalty charges were for? Statements usually detail whether they are for exceeding the credit limit etc... If you can be precise as to why you incurred the charges that would help me.

 

Regards,

 

Laiste,

[electric lemon]

Hi Laiste,

 

A) The " CCJ" that I wrote about in a previous post here was what I had originally thought had arrived when husband opened the post.

 

For the record, I DID NOT receive a CCJ from GE Capital or anyone else, nor have I, regarding this situation. It was my error.

 

What I did actually receive from Howard & Cohen Solicitors on behalf of CL Finance was the County Court Claim, which I am now, with your gracious help & expertise in the process of defending.

 

I apologise if I have confused anyone. I was stressed to the max at the time(!) & did not understand fully the paperwork.

 

B) The DN was not sent by recorded or special delivery to me, but by ordinary post. I did not receive it until the 3rd March (OH MY GOD!!) & acted pretty swiftly, hence my call to GE Capital, which they consequently deny. ( I have never taken any notice of the time span that I should have been allowed. All I saw was the date in which I had to get back to them by). That is absoloutely outrageous - what can I do about that???

 

(My mobile phone bill would have details of the call, & so would the transcript of the recorded telephone call at GE Capital. As long as they havnt wiped it, & of which I have requested from them as you know).

 

I hope that you have everything that you need Laiste. Im here all evening should there be anything else at all.

 

Huge thanks to you.xx

[electric lemon]

Laiste, I have just seen your last post about the charges.

 

I shall have to get out a few statements to check.

 

I also have to get the toddlers to bed so I may be about an hour before I am able to post & be accurate about this.

 

Thanks.

[Laiste]

Hi Electric,

 

Don't worry about the statements, I've changed my mind on that! I hope you see this before you digging through paperwork!

 

If you are not given 14 days to remedy the breach, then the DN is legally invalid and their termination of the contract is unlawful.

 

I'll be back with the defence a bit later.

 

Laiste.

[electric lemon]

Hi Laiste,

 

Thats fine.

 

However, I was trawling through mountains of statements like a demented being!!! But not for long - Phew!!!

 

Ha! ha! What you said made me laugh!!

 

Just for the record, I have found statements that show returned cheque charges as well as late payment charges, but Ive not got one with over the limit fees. I imagine they probably also make charges for this & I may have had these applied recently, but I'm darned if I can find a statement with this detailed. Typical!

 

The 14 days time limit to remedy the breach seems like just a tiny glimmer of hope, however how can this be proved/proven??? I guess its their word against mine.........again (remembering the phone call they deny).

 

Would a Judge look at this as a situation that cannot be proved or disproved??

 

There is of course the fact that I have the 30 day rule re: credit agreement, that if it isnt forthcoming from CL Finance then the debt cannot be enforcable.It is now 15 days & I am counting down to 30!!!

 

I shall await your defence. Many thanks.

[Laiste]

Hi Electric,

 

Okay, here it is, finally! I may have given this advice before, but just in case I haven't, make sure you type this up in a word document first and simply copy and paste. You then have a copy of the defence for your records and it reduces the chances of something going wrong by typing it up on the moneyclaim site!

 

On the 30th March 2007, the Claimants received by guaranteed next day delivery, a written request for a copy of the credit agreement the alleged debt refers to. The Claimants were advised that as this matter was subject to legal proceedings, the information requested must be furnished by the 8th April 2007, to enable me to file a complete defence and counter-claim. The Claimants have failed to produce a credit agreement to substantiate their claim that monies are owed under a regulated credit agreement.Therefore I do not acknowledge that any debt is owed to CL Finance.

 

The Default Notice dated the 22nd February 2007, was not received until the 3rd March 2007, which failed to provide the requisite fourteen days to remedy the alleged breach of contract, as required under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. This renders the Default Notice invalid. Additionally, the amount requested in the Default Notice was in excess of what was actually required to remedy the alleged breach of contract. The amount claimed contains penalty charges, which are unlawful at Common Law, under The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. The Default Notice had to be accurate to be enforceable, the inclusion of penalty charges renders it legally invalid.

 

The assignment of the alleged debt from GE Capital to the Claimants is unlawful, as I have never been provided with written or verbal notice of the assignment, despite the Claimants assertion to the contrary. I put the Claimants to strict proof that notice of the assignment has been furnished to me.

 

I dispute that the Claimants are legally entitled to claim contractual interest at the rate of 24.573% per annum, accruing at a daily rate of £1.57, from the date these proceedings commenced, to the date of judgment. The Claimants have not proved that any agreement exists and what the terms and conditions of any such agreement are, which precludes them from claiming contractual interest.

 

I would respectfully ask the Court to stay these proceedings until such time as the Claimants provide the information I have already requested, or the Court orders the Claimants compliance with the same. I will seek the permission of the Court to amend my defence accordingly, should the Claimants provide the information they have to date failed to furnish.

 

There you go, one defence! I hope it's ok!

 

Laiste.

[electric lemon]

That is AMAZING!!!!

 

Thank you Laiste. This, I know has taken alot of your very valuable time & is so sincerely appreciated.

 

I am off to copy & paste & file online.

 

Expressing my most sincerest gratitude for all your hard work.

 

Big Love:D

Electric

[Laiste]

Hi Electric,

 

You're welcome. I hope you managed to get it all done last night and that it didn't take too long! They are certainly not going to be happy when they read your defence!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[electric lemon]

Ok....Its done!!!

 

Phew & double Phew - that was nerve-wracking!!!

 

Oh, the relief......................Long hot bath coming up.

 

Defence filed on-line & now I just sit & wait & see what happens.

 

What does happen now?????

Other than have CL Finance & GE Capital poop their pants!!!

 

Laiste you're an Angel.

[Laiste]

Hi Electric,

 

What will happen now is that a copy of your defence will be served on the Claimants and you will receive a letter from the Court stating that this has happened and advising you that the Claimants have 28 days in which to advise the Court whether or not they wish to proceed. If they don't inform the Court, it will automatically be put on a stay after the time period has elapsed. I know we have requested a stay anyway, but whether or not this happens is at the discretion of the Court.

 

If the case is automatically placed on a stay, should they decide that they wish to proceed, they have to explain to the Court why they have delayed and a fee is payable by them also. In other words, not responding in the 28 days makes it harder to resurrect the case. The Judge might decide their reasons are feeble and throw out their case. The longer the stay remains, the more difficult it becomes to convince a Judge that the Claimants still have a valid claim. So we will have to wait and see what transpires....

 

In theory, you might not hear anything for 28 days, if they only decide to respond at the last minute to the Court. Sometimes Companies do this to lead you to believe that they are not going to proceed, it's just a little game some like to play.

 

CL Finance may well be wondering if this is going to be worth pursuing having received your letter. Companies like this want easy cases, for example, where a person simply does not defend the claim. They don't like devoting time and money to a case where there is no guarantee that they are going to win! They very often employ solicitors that haven't got the first clue about Consumer Credit law and of course, the more savvy the solicitor the more expensive his hourly rate! This is all about keeping costs down and what might have seemed like a good idea at first in starting proceedings, when faced with a clued up consumer quickly becomes an expensive bad idea!

 

It is also worth noting that many sols employed by banks, c/c's and DCA's are getting money for old rope because most people when faced with a sols letter, quickly pay up or make pmt arrangements, job done! When a sol is required to work for his money in this complex area of law a number will just bow out. Just because some firms state they have a dedicated person/team dealing with debt recovery, doesn't mean they have any idea of how to deal with arguments raised under the CCA 1974 and consumer protection legislation. Usually, it is simply the letterhead and a demand for pmt from a firm of sols that does the trick in persuading a consumer to pay up, which is hardly work! So nobody should ever be frightened if they get a sols letter, they probably know less about the CCA 1974, than you do! The amount of people that defend debt cases is still relatively small, so for most companies involved in debt recovery, it is practically a guarantee that they will recover the monies at some stage as many people don't know the law and are frightened to death of going to Court, which nobody should be.

 

So it may well turn out to be the case that CL Finance get in touch to try and come to some arrangement with you. In the absence of the credit agreement, they will be in no position to request any monies. In that circumstance, the only matter under discussion then becomes how much you are prepared to accept in compensation from them.

 

Can I ask how much the claim is for, so I know which track it will be allocated to.

 

Kind regards,

 

Laiste.

[electric lemon]

Hi Laiste,

 

That was really informative - thank you. Everything becomes clearer as time goes by & with each post you make!

 

I would love to be a fly on the wall when they see the defence - if nothing else other than to be a challenge to them & for them to realise that they have to work for what is going on.

 

Thats cool about the amount, I dont mind at all. However, Im a little nervous about saying the amount in case they have some irk spying on here!! I know it sounds daft, but I cant help but be a bit paranoid!!

 

I shall PM you & advise you accordingly.

 

Hope you've had a good weekend!

 

Best wishes,

Electric

XX:D

[electric lemon]

Hi Laiste,

 

Just a quickie.....I saw this on another thread.

 

I have had my default on my Credit file removed from HSBC (credit card), as they could not supply me with a 'true and signed copy of the original default notice'.

I never received or had any such letter/document that I had to sign - should I have done???

 

If so then GE cannot say so, or do Default notices just arrive headed as such & no-one has to sign anything??

 

Thanks a bunch.

[Laiste]

Hi Electric,

 

A Default Notice doesn't require a signature. It is simply sent in the post, generally not by r/d or g/d, so whether or not it has been received by the recipient is a matter for the creditor to prove! As it hasn't been received, you will document that in your counter claim, it is up to them to prove otherwise.

 

I hope that answers your questions re the DN.

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

 

P.S. I received your PM of the details of the debt, no worries I understand your reluctance to divulge the info on your thread. Can I ask whereabouts in Devon you are? PM me if you would prefer, there is a reason for asking!

[electric lemon]

Thanks Laiste,

 

I am now worried about the 'counter-claim'.

 

When I filed on line there was a part that said do you want to counter-claim. I pressed yes, & it said...you must pay £XXX to do this???? Huh?

 

So, I pressed no. I hope that I did the right thing??? As far as Im aware I am not able to counter-claim yest as I do not have all the details. Isnt that right??

 

I so hope that Ive done the right thing.

 

I will PM you where I am!

[Laiste]

Hi Electric,

 

You did the right thing in pressing no. You can't submit a c/c at this stage because you don't have all the information. We will do that as and when the info turns up. I think maybe at the beginning of next week, we will put together a letter to send to CL Finance to crank up the pressure on

them! They need to furnish the info and they've had long enough as far as I'm concerned!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

 

P.S I will reply to the PM you sent last night a bit later.

[electric lemon]

PHEW, PHEW, PHEW, PHEW, PHEW, PHEW, PHEW!!!!

 

Glad I did the right thing there Laiste!

 

CL have only got until the 26th & Boy Oh Boy, am I counting down the days. Its nail-biting time!

 

I have a couple of days off at the moment & so will be lurking more than usual - maybe helping where I can for moral support for any newbies.

XX

[Laiste]

Hi Electric,

 

Just a cautionary note, don't pin all your hopes on the 26th. Even if they don't inform the Court of an intention to proceed, and proceedings are stayed, they can still apply with the requisite fee to have the stay lifted which may be granted. It is much better for you if the paperwork isn't in order, hopefully rendering the debt unenforceable. A stay is not a resolution, it will still mean you have the matter hanging over your head, with the prospect that they may resurrect it at any point in the next 6mnths! Better to get it sorted once and for all and then you can get on with life!

 

This site is addictive, you may find yourself doing nothing other than reading and replying to posts! There are some very interesting threads on here, that contain a lot of useful info, but it's hard to stop reading once you start!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[WormHasTurned]

Quick question here Laiste, what is the significance of 6 months for a stay?

 

Thank you for your knowledge!

[Laiste]

Hi WHT,

 

If the claimant doesn't apply to the Court to have the stay lifted within the six month period, it becomes much more difficult and complex to resurrect the case at that point. They would need exceptionally good reasons to re-start the case. The Judge would want to know why matters had been left for such a long period, and I'm not sure that them being morons qualifies as an adequate reason!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.