I owe around £500 to my local council in council tax arrears - balliffs conduct

[davefirewalker]

sorry seemed to have posted to an earlier reply in this thread.......oops

dave

[The Watcher]

Stumbled across this rather interesting site whilst researching for my law paper and no offence to u guys but who on earth do you get your legal advice from??

 

The law clearly (or not so clearly more like) allows:

 

A bailiff can call at any 'reasonable' time - there is no legal definition of reasonable so therefore a call a 5.50am is fine. The National Standards do outline times however these are only guidlines.

 

If you consider 5.50am reasonable - what time would you consider unreasonable???

[Bailiffchaser]

Reasonable i would say is 8am-7pm summer time and 9am-5pm winter time.

[Wallenstein]

Drakes Bailiff called to collect parking fines + their fees. I have kept them shut out for months. This time he followed my wife to the door, put his foot in it and refused to budge

 

I had to pay him (credit card) to get rid of him

 

He had previously left a "Final Notice" stating he would call "One evening this week" but called early one morning the following week. He told my wife he was out to get me because I bawled him out on the phone.

 

I intend to sue these bastards

[The Watcher]

Drakes Bailiff called to collect parking fines + their fees. I have kept them shut out for months. This time he followed my wife to the door, put his foot in it and refused to budge

 

Can you explain further? Had she met him outside the house? Is that what you are saying?

[Wallenstein]

He was waiting in his car in the street about 7.45 am and saw her go out to the car to collect some items. As she went to open the front door (I had told her to lock it whenever going out even for a couple of minutes) he was behind her, told her who he was. and said he wanted to see me.

 

She told him I wasn't at home but as she went to close the door he put his foot in it and told her he would be calling a locksmith and the police. She left him downstairs and called me down. I ordered him to take his foot out of the door and he refused. I then tried physically to force him back, but he was a well-built thug and it was quite impossible. Eventually I had to pay him just to get rid of him (and his sidekick). Obviously we both had to go to work and we couldnt leave him there. He then left, giving me a receipt.

 

His name is (alleged to be) Thompson but none of his notices bear an initial. I have his phone no which may identify him and he was working for the Southampton Court.

 

Does anybody know where Drakes offices really are? They use a Box number which appears to be located in an area of nurseries and farmland in Galley Hill Walthams Cross.

[Guest Herbie]

As this would appear to be a parking fine as opposed to an unpaid parking ticket, it is being pursued by private bailiffs on behalf of the Magistrates Court.

 

There are strict guidelines to what the bailiffs can charge for collection of unpaid fines. If you have a complaint, you must write to the Magistrate Court that instructed him, which I believe is Southampton.

 

By most importantantly, you should write to Drakes to request a DETAILED breakdown of the costs and charges that have been made to your account by the bailiffs. This is called a Subject Access Request or (S.7) and you should enclosed a fee of £10.

 

In you letter you should also ask for details of the date that the bailiff obtained his certificate and at which court.

 

Although working for the Magistrates Court they would not normally have to be Certificated, in this case, Her Majesty's Court Service (HMCS) imposed conditions on their Contracts with Drakes that they must all be Certificated Bailiffs.

 

I don't have the address to hand at this moment, but will post shortly.

[Guest Herbie]

The address is as follows:

 

The Complaints Department

Drakes Group Ltd

Bridgman House

37, Sun Street

Waltham Abbey

Essex

EN9 1EL

 

 

You should always ensure that any letters are sent by Registered Post.....and keep a copy.

[The Watcher]

He was waiting in his car in the street about 7.45 am and saw her go out to the car to collect some items. As she went to open the front door (I had told her to lock it whenever going out even for a couple of minutes) he was behind her, told her who he was. and said he wanted to see me.

 

She told him I wasn't at home but as she went to close the door he put his foot in it and told her he would be calling a locksmith and the police. She left him downstairs and called me down. I ordered him to take his foot out of the door and he refused. I then tried physically to force him back, but he was a well-built thug and it was quite impossible. Eventually I had to pay him just to get rid of him (and his sidekick). Obviously we both had to go to work and we couldnt leave him there. He then left, giving me a receipt.

 

His name is (alleged to be) Thompson but none of his notices bear an initial. I have his phone no which may identify him and he was working for the Southampton Court.

 

Does anybody know where Drakes offices really are? They use a Box number which appears to be located in an area of nurseries and farmland in Galley Hill Walthams Cross.

 

Had he called before? Did your wife know who he was when she say him? It must have been a terrifying ordeal for her?

 

Follow Herbie's excellent advice.

 

Alot of people will simply dismiss things (and bailiffs know this) and simply "put it down to experience" - rather than persuing this aggressive assault.

 

I read somewhere that bailiffs were not allowed to "push their way past you at the door" but this may have just been suggestion / advice on a consultation paper? Anyone know for sure?

[The Watcher]

Reasonable i would say is 8am-7pm summer time and 9am-5pm winter time.

 

I'm sure that alot of bailiffs will say the reason they call at such ungodly hours in because people now often work long distances from their homes, so are out for longer peiods. In some cases, that may be the case.

 

However, I'm sure that the REAL reason is that they intend to make as much noise as possible (at a very quiet time) - in order that all the neighbours can hear - and use this "pressure / embarrassment" as a means of gaining entry.

[tiglet]

No, they can't push past the door. They are only allowed entry if it is granted peacefully or if they can gain access themselves i.e. your wife left the door open to go inside to get something or a door or window was left unlocked.

 

Definitely complain to Drakes and also to the court.

[The Watcher]

No, they can't push past the door. They are only allowed entry if it is granted peacefully or if they can gain access themselves i.e. your wife left the door open to go inside to get something or a door or window was left unlocked.

 

Definitely complain to Drakes and also to the court.

 

 

Why then the "foot in the door" method? Is this so they can claim to have made "entry" or simply so you cannot close the door and get rid of them?

[Guest Herbie]

It is rare, if not virtually unheard of for a bailiff to come to your home by agreement to discuss a payment plan without insisting that a Walking Possession is agreed.

 

Our office spoke with a bailiff just this morning who insisted that legally he had to levy on goods and sign a WP BEFORE he is allowed to accept payment terms.

 

This is complete nonsense and the bailiff knows it.

 

Remember the bailiff can only claim for the first visit so he will be looking to get further fees by getting you to sign a WP .

 

You should make sure that he knows in advance that you will not sign a Walking Possession and neither will you allow him into your home......... but that you are willing to pay........but at the agreed rate.

[tiglet]

I think it's a bit of both watcher - you can't get rid of them and it's your word against their's that you did not let them in.

[Wallenstein]

Thanks Watcher and Herbie for that useful advice which I will follow.

 

Herbie thanks for the PM. I am going to check to see what their fees are. I think they upped them by £100+ between their last 2 visits.

 

I have to go out on calls now so will try and reply tomorrow.

[Wallenstein]

I always understood that they could only gain entry if allowd in or through an open window but these were magistrates courts fines and only last week I discovered that (is this right?) they can already force entry on these.

 

The name of the Act seems completely irrelevant - Domestic Violence or something which has nothing to do with this case.

[tiglet]

they can't force entry unless they have a warrant from the courts to do so. They can then ask the police to be in attendance, but not to assist them but merely to preserve the peace.

 

They have acted disgracefully by doing this.

[Guest Herbie]

Sorry Tiglet, but in certain circumstances the bailiff can FORCE ENTRY into your home.

 

The Government included a small provision within the Domestic Violence Crime and Victims Act in 2004 for bailiff to be given the power to force entry in the event of an UNPAID FINE from the MAGISTRATES COURT.

 

This is certainly of concern to many of us advice agancies, and frankly many bailiffs also do not like it !!

 

This right of forced entry ONLY applies to unpaid MAGISTRATE COURT FINES.

 

If anyone has an outstanding fine incurred in the Magistrates Court which can be for driving without tax or insurance, speeding or even not having a valid Television Licence, our advice is always to contact the Magistrates Court WITHOUT DELAY. The court will tell you to turn up at court...even without an appointment....for a very simple Means Hearing.

 

You will need to go to the reception desk, they will provide you with an Income & Expenditure Form to complete and this will need to be given back to the court clerk. You may have wait half an hour or so before being asked to go into the court.

 

The Magistrates will go through your form and can ask you questions on your income etc. They will then set a monthly affordable figure for you to pay the debt .

 

By doing this you will not only avoid the visit from the bailiffs.....but you will avoid having to pay his fees also.

 

Remember, that while you have monthly repayments agreed with the court, and you keep to the amounts due, all bailiff action MUST CEASE.

[tiglet]

well I didn't know that.

[The Watcher]

It's quite obvious that bailiff law is anarchic and highly confusing - perhaps the time HAS come for the government to tidy it all up?

 

I'm sure that most people want to be law-abiding, but how can they be, when the law is so confusing that hardly anyone - bailiffs included - understands it properly?

 

BUT - before they do that they should have detailed consultation (esp on something as fundamental as removing the 1000 year old "right to refuse entry"). If the government plan anything as draconian as that there should be a national referendum first - not "slipping" the new laws in by the back door !

[tiglet]

My husband used to work for Liberty - perhaps thsi sis something the CAG should raise with them?

 

Yes, Watcher, the laws do seem to be very confusing - something which works to bailiffs advantage and our disadvantage in a lot of cases.

[The Watcher]

Yes, Watcher, the laws do seem to be very confusing - something which works to bailiffs advantage and our disadvantage in a lot of cases.

 

I don't think bailiffs will want clarification of the law - at present they can make all sorts of claims, and when these are found to be wrong, they "rely" on the confusion within the law, and claim it was all a mistake. (The fact that they would profit from such a mistake is overlooked !!!)

 

Most police officers don't understand it either - so tend to accept whatever a bailiff (often wrongly) tells them.

 

If people are to be protected - they need to KNOW their rights !

[Guest Herbie]

We do tend to accuse bailiffs of being unreasonable, and many are, but it may help to understand their problems.

 

Until approx: 12 years ago, bailiffs did earn a good living in that they were able to deduct a commission, typically 15% to 20% on all monies that they collected on behalf of the local authority for Council Tax. I do not know of any LA that now pays commission. Instead, this Government has introduced Statutory Instruments that provide a Statutory fee structure for Bailiff charges for enforcing all manner of debts...with each debt attracting a different fee scale!!

 

Put youself in the bailiffs place for one moment......they are able to charge a letter fee when collecting Road Traffic Debts of £11.20

 

With Council Tax there is no letter fee, but the bailiff can charge £22.50 for a first visit and £16.50 for a second visit. Being honest, I would not do that job for this amount of money. Where the bailiff can make a much higher amount of money is by charging the dreaded "attendandance fee", which the government instructed can be a "reasonable cost"....whatever that may mean.

 

Bailiffs themselves have long been campaigining for a more reasonable 1st and 2nd visit fees amongst other charges, and at last the government has seen sense and agreed to increase this amount.

 

The new increased figures now mean that the bailiff can charge a first visit fee when collecting Council Tax of £24.50 and a second visit of £18.00, an increase of just £2.00 and £1.50 for the second visit, so I am afraid we are back to square one with bailiffs purporting to make attendance fees and van fees etc.

 

And when do these new fees become law.....on April Fools Day......

[The Watcher]

We do tend to accuse bailiffs of being unreasonable, and many are, but it may help to understand their problems.

 

Until approx: 12 years ago, bailiffs did earn a good living in that they were able to deduct a commission, typically 15% to 20% on all monies that they collected on behalf of the local authority for Council Tax. I do not know of any LA that now pays commission. Instead, this Government has introduced Statutory Instruments that provide a Statutory fee structure for Bailiff charges for enforcing all manner of debts...with each debt attracting a different fee scale!!

 

Put youself in the bailiffs place for one moment......they are able to charge a letter fee when collecting Road Traffic Debts of £11.20

 

With Council Tax there is no letter fee, but the bailiff can charge £22.50 for a first visit and £16.50 for a second visit. Being honest, I would not do that job for this amount of money. Where the bailiff can make a much higher amount of money is by charging the dreaded "attendandance fee", which the government instructed can be a "reasonable cost"....whatever that may mean.

 

Bailiffs themselves have long been campaigining for a more reasonable 1st and 2nd visit fees amongst other charges, and at last the government has seen sense and agreed to increase this amount.

 

The new increased figures now mean that the bailiff can charge a first visit fee when collecting Council Tax of £24.50 and a second visit of £18.00, an increase of just £2.00 and £1.50 for the second visit, so I am afraid we are back to square one with bailiffs purporting to make attendance fees and van fees etc.

 

And when do these new fees become law.....on April Fools Day......

 

Thanks. Herbie - very informative.

 

Whewn do "attendance" and "van" fees kick-in? I assume that the 1st and 2nd visits have to take place first?

 

(and what exactly - is an "attendance"?)

[Guest Herbie]

The Regulations state clearly that:

 

First visit...to attend to levy...but where no levy takes place £22.50 ( ie: where nobody is home)

 

Second Visit...to attend to levy where no levy takes place

£16.50 (ie: where nobody is home)

 

For ONE ATTENDANCE ONLY with a vehicle to recover goods AFTER a levy ( ie: Walking Possession) has been made.