Contractual Interest Discussion

[maxine989]

Look... my avatar is wofting the pong away... Phew Westy... we didn't need to know that!! LOL

[thereshope!]

Oh - almost forgot to mention.

 

Just had a chat with a nice young woman at Cobbetts to clarify a couple of points about charges, interest thereon (contractual interest if you wish) and statutory interest.

 

My cheque is on its way, Special Delivery.

 

I really shouldn't tease so much, should I?

 

Westy

 

 

well done westy !!!

 

You did it ! (well ,when you get that cheque in your sweaty mitt you will have done it !)

 

Big congrats in order !

 

Good way of wording the interest part ,good argument .

 

Keep re-reading your post cos its giving me hope !

 

Hope xx

[natwesttookmymoney]

P.S. Congratulations Westy

 

I should b***dy well think so!!

 

(just in case anyone thought I was being harsh or acidic!)

 

No, their AQ said nothing like that on it. I'll have a look at your thread - hope your POCs and progress are all on it.

 

W

[maxine989]

Cheers Westy

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/49630-maxine989-natwest-4.html#post577644

 

have just pasted them on.

[millymollymoo]

Hope,

 

Thank you

 

Milly XX

[redsonja]

Oh dear oh dear, this really is starting to become a nightmare!

 

I started my credit card claims and stumbled across BF's post on contractual Interest. After reading it, it made sense to me to claim the contractual interest. After all, why should I pay interest on charges (or when they dont charge interest on charges, why should I pay interest on a balance that is higher than what it would have been had they not levied the charge).

It took me a while to fully get my head round the whole subject but I managed to. Then came the spready problem, but once again managed to get my head round them (with a lot of help from bill-k I have to say).

 

The whole process took me ages, meant I had to send revised schedule of charges and gave me a lot of headaches but I was finally happy that I had got to grips with it all. Now all this happens.

 

I did feel confident with my arguement about contractual interest and did think yeah I will do it but now with conflicting information it makes me wary. I have never accepted part payment as i thought I would have a stronger arguement but it seems now that if they offer me charges + 8% then I should accept it....surely the banks etc will just do this to avoid paying out the larger amounts.

 

When I was new to this site, I found it very hard to get answers to my threads but eventually got contact from good ole Bill-k and his support has been fantastic. I now feel as though I have had my right arm cut off and am in limbo with all my claims so have paused action on them all.

 

Even though I think I am confident about the interest claim, losing the support to spur me on has knocked my confidence and despite what different posters say, I am wary of continuing.

 

Natwesttookmymoney - Great post and makes sense but the doubt is whether someone will come along and contradict what you say. Your post in itself would be enough to spur me on but at the present time it doesnt stop the worry.

 

Please lets just have a response from the top regarding this.

We all know it is our own final decision to decide which route to take so lets have an announcement regarding the debate so we can just get on with our decisions!!

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, RedSonja

 

Even if people do come and contradict what I've said, it will not alter one thing, one very important thing:

 

I've won.

 

Subject to getting the cheque tomorrow as promised.

 

W

[millymollymoo]

By the way concerning my decision with the'fish' to carry on despite their offer and FULLY rejecting offer + gross conditions. I do not feel so bad now as I have a intact claim and after all they checked the box on the acknowledge ment to say they intended defending the claim in Full. You know I think we have something here methinks.

 

Why ....well if they are pushing the charges amount of payment by depositing in accounts or cheques on people then to be correct they should be ticking the box on the acknowledgement of claim as 'we intend depending this claim in PART', cos then they could say the charges have been settled already by payment and are settled on this part of claim. Me thinks if they say they are defending in full then in full it is!!! Full disclosure of charges as they do not agree with the POC you have submitted.

Does anyone agree with this cos why are they saying they are defending in full when if they have paid the charges they are ONLY then defending the INTEREST ...Hope you get what I am saying!!!!!! I confuse myself sometimes:)

 

 

They missed the deadline for my CCA and they cahed me cheque and sent a letter two weeks ago confirming theiy would comply, bit more ammunition me thinks.

[redsonja]

lol. Well done!

I also won Morgan Stanley with CCI and there are so many people that have won claims with CCI that really it should be enough to spur us all on but I think when the mods make comments that contradict what we believe, it scares us as we assume they know more than us!....hmmmn I always say...never make assumptions hey ho!

[millymollymoo]

Hi, RedSonja

 

Even if people do come and contradict what I've said, it will not alter one thing, one very important thing:

 

I've won.

 

Subject to getting the cheque tomorrow as promised.

 

W

AND MASSIVE CONGRATS WESTY YOU HAVE GIVEN EXCELLENT ADVICE To ME WHEN I HAVE ASKED

[caro]

Redsonja, my advice would be to accept if you are offered full settlement plus 8%, but at the end of the day it is your claim, and your decision. If you were offered this and went before a judge, having refused what may be considered full settlement you may find yourself in difficulties. This site is about empowering people to help themselves, so I suggest that if you are in doubt, just keep researching so that you can help yourself and make informed decisions. No-one can make your decisions for you. If anyone offers advice to you, try and make sure that it can be backed up. Bill-k has helped many people, and I hope he will continue to do so for a long time to come. This site is still quite new, and we are all learning all the time (well I am anyway) and sometimes something will crop up, like the mortgage ERC issue, which can bring our beliefs into question. We have to be willing to learn from our combined experiences.

 

Congratulations Westy, I'm pleased that you and many others have won your claims including CI. The risk has obviously paid off for you, but you must appreciate that there could be an element of risk for anyone choosing to claim CI. I'm truly glad that it worked out well for you.

[redsonja]

Hi Caro,

Thanks for your comments. I understand what you are saying but if they offer 8% and charges, what would be the point of claiming CCI from the outset? Surely the banks will just know about this and offer 8% in every case, in which case I dont understand why BF started the CCI thread in the 1st place.

[caro]

I'm afraid I've given you all the advice I can. Keep researching.

[millymollymoo]

Has anyone got any opinions on my post #97. I think this could be right.

Milly.

[Guest willowb]

Westy...congrats:D you BIG SHOW OFF!!!! :p

 

Willow you have respect from me:)

 

Milly X

 

 

ERC and bank charges have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

 

 

Yes, but what we could draw from the experience is that we need to be 100% clear and confident about what we are doing when we file claims. A 'not as informed person' may end up against a barrister in Court in a fast track hearing and be shot down in flames IF simple steps and protocol aren't adhered to. I for one could not bear to see that happen again.

 

but it seems now that if they offer me charges + 8% then I should accept it....surely the banks etc will just do this to avoid paying out the larger amounts.

 

They have very rarely done this, I think. Most of these claims get settled after the N1 stage.....unless someone has any stats on that?

 

The point of claiming contractual at the beginning may have many benefits, not least a quick result of a full payout before the N1 stage (even if it is Thing is the 8%), the best result.....see Westy! however much we thrash this out amongst ourselves it doesn't change the protocol in my post#66, does it?

 

To settle 'out of Court' is an 'overriding objective', Judges take a very harsh view on claimants who have used the Court's time needlessly.

 

But to everyone who wants to go ahead into Court after being offered 100% charges plus fees and 8% is more than welcome, who's stopping you? Or on the flip side, who is encouraging you? If the Judge doesn't fall on your side on the day, who are you gonna blame? There is NO ONE to blame but yourselves. But if you walk away with the charges plus interest and fees without the hassle of going through months waiting and a possible hearing, who's the winner?

 

If you believe in the claiming of CI 100% and have all the arguments to 'back it up' at a hearing, if you are fully confident that you could win the argument infront of a Judge at a hearing (this is for CI alone)....then, why not? It really is up to you! I know I wouldn't, that's all.

 

Wxxx

[redsonja]

But to everyone who wants to go ahead into Court after being offered 100% charges plus fees and 8% is more than welcome, who's stopping you?

 

Hi Willow,

Im not talking about the charges, fees and 8%. Im talking about if they offer charges plus 8% before filing court claim. Didnt want people to get confused thinking they were offering to settle after N1 filed. My friend has been offered this scenario after her LBA

[lucid]

A story in contrast..........

 

Mindzai and Lucid I think are the contractual king and queen and NEVER excepted any offer, {agreed THEIR DECISION RIGHT OR WRONG!!} NOT EVEN 8% stat before filing. They won through perseverance. AND WERE QUITE HAPPY TO ARGUE THEIR CASE. However read on as this IS important.......IF people think it is easy it is not and good letters like Mindzai and Lucid did were I believe the reason they got the CI in their case only!!! THIS MAY NOT BE THE CASE FOR OTHERS WHO HAVE NO CLUE and a poorly presented case will get you maybe NOTHING!!!So yes to agree with Willow if she means this:) {hope you have read this and NOT got the grumps so far as I am agreeing with you}if you are not prepared to lose as each case is different then STOP there!!!!! Good advice willow:)

 

 

Milly XX

 

Hi Milly and everybody else.

 

Just got to correct you on a slight detail there Milly - and it's my fault for the way I worded it in the other thread. We got an offer for full charges + statutory interest that we had earnt on each charge up until the date we filed the claim, but no statutory interest at the daily rate was included in the total - this offer came after we had filed our claims at court and after we had been given a court date. I'm not sure if it makes a difference or not but just wanetd to point that out. If we had been offered the same before we filed the court claim then we would have still refused (in our situation).

 

You are completely right in that we were confident in what we were doing and this probably made a difference. Another important point (I think) is that our oldest charge was about 3 years old so the effect of compound interest wasn't so immense in our claims as it potentially can be.

 

But I stand by my opinions on the matter in that anybody who doesn't understand contractual interest and who can't put their arguments forward regarding it, should not consider adding it to their claims. I believe that if you are confident enough to bring a thoroughly researched case together then the Judge would look upon you favourably - no matter what their opinion on contractual interest is, and even if it got to court and the Judge was against contractual interest, I don't think it would go as far as getting your claim struck out. But if you turn up to court and don't have a case prepared and you have basically added contractual interest cause you thought it was an easy way to increase you claim amount then I don't think the Judge would appreciate this at all and they would probably be more inclined to take a harsh approach - and possibly award costs against you. That's the way I see it anyway, but obviously I could be completely wrong as I'm very far from being an expert.

 

Lucid

[GaryH]

Also, I don't think it'd be responsible of the site team NOT to issue some warnings after the ERC result, then the threat of costs from the SCT judge regarding contractual, then the other two judges expressing doubts.

 

These are new and significant developments - should we have not said anything?

 

I know ERC and charges are seperate entities but there are enough simularities for us to make sure we do all we can so that a simular thing never happens again.

 

I'm glad this thread was started becouse its brought the issue fully under the spotlight - everyone is now aware of the potential risks and can make their own informed decision. To many people before were filing claims for crazy amounts of interest with no understanding whatsoever of the risks or issues - the whole point of advising caution is to stop any potential disasters.

 

I hope people won't try to turn this into 'them and us' - we're all here for the same reason and we need to stand united.

[lucid]

Redsonja, my advice would be to accept if you are offered full settlement plus 8%, but at the end of the day it is your claim, and your decision. If you were offered this and went before a judge, having refused what may be considered full settlement you may find yourself in difficulties.

 

If we claim for contractual interest with statutory in the alternative - and that's the alternative that would be deemed appropriate by the Judge, not the bank - then surely an offer of charges + 8% interest is not a full offer. I personally don't think that a court would consider that as a full settlement, providing the contractual rate had been set out properly in the Particulars of Claim. The court may very well disagree with the rate but I don't see how rejecting an offer including 8% interest would be seen as unreasonable or would get you into any difficulties.

 

The issue comes in rejecting the offer entirely so that you are still pursuing the total amount inclduing charges plus contractual. But as I said in my above post you need to have a solid argument prepared for contractual and it is vital that you are confident.

 

Lucid

[redsonja]

If we claim for contractual interest with statutory in the alternative - and that's the alternative that would be deemed appropriate by the Judge, not the bank - then surely an offer of charges + 8% interest is not a full offer. I personally don't think that a court would consider that as a full settlement, providing the contractual rate had been set out properly in the Particulars of Claim. The court may very well disagree with the rate but I don't see how rejecting an offer including 8% interest would be seen as unreasonable or would get you into any difficulties.

 

The issue comes in rejecting the offer entirely so that you are still pursuing the total amount inclduing charges plus contractual. But as I said in my above post you need to have a solid argument prepared for contractual and it is vital that you are confident.

 

Lucid

 

Hear hear Lucid.

 

Just want to say, if anybody needs a smile by the time they get to this part....read this...made me chuckle....even when I was grumpy!

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-knowledge/58505-quick-survey-compounded-contractual.html

 

ok...enough play...carry on the debate

[bill-k]

Congratulations, Westy. A big jobbie well done, if I may say so. I'd give it ten minutes, if I were you, peeps !! :o

 

Mad Nick - thank you for bringing some sanity !!

 

Everybody else - thank you for commenting here. I'm glad this has not become a discussion of my embarrassing personal complaint, and the subsequent treatment thereof. I can confirm that the monstrous karbuncle that has been on my backside is slowly shrinking, now, thank you !!

 

I see that there have been some heated moments, and to me that is a sign that people are committed to their opinions, and not just indifferently chucking them in. Yes, indeed, as Caro says we must not be afraid to express our opinions, as we bring what we have to this forum, and take what we wish from it. However, if we are told quite firmly by some of our leaders that a particular idea or opinion is not to be expressed, and then by others that it is, then we are being given Hobson's choice. Damned if we do, and damned if we don't. If the mods are going to be policing us with regard to these opinions, then it must be (a) by consent, and (b) consistent and uniform enforcement.

 

To be effectively told to "shut up and do what we say" is not quite what a forum is about. But if such discipline is necessary, then further discipline is expected from our superiors. The "we" in the above must be a united ("Royal") we, and not a p1$$-up in a brewery !!

 

With regard to partial payments, I am personally not happy at this apparent acceptance tha the defendant can dictate the way that a claim progresses, simply by offering a reduced amount, which is equivalent to the penalty charges only. The claim is for "a fixed amount of money" and is not IMO open to dissection by anybody other than the Judge. The defendant can call their partial offer whatever they damn well pleasee, but that doesn't mean that's what it is, does it ? Is a GOGW really a GOGW just because they call it that ? If it were, then why don't we say "Aaaw, gee, thanks a bunch, guys, now what about my claim for charges plus CI ?")

 

I think what Molly has found is worth looking into before we all start rushing in the "accept" direction. It's this panic that stops us looking into these things, like Milly's point. Well done for keeping your cool, Milly !!

 

We must feel committed, yes. But we must respect each other and allow our differences to be discussed - calmly and without anger or panic. When we try and stop that by undue enforcement of opposing views, then we truly have civil war. We MUST have peaceful and free discussion here - albeit within reasonable limits, I agree - before we can truly regain the lost power that true unity brings.

 

If we are to Reclaim the Right, then we must now regain the power. We must find that unity, and must see it in our leadership.

 

PS My god, there's been some input since I started typing this - I hope it's still pertinent !!

[millymollymoo]

Hi Milly and everybody else.

 

Just got to correct you on a slight detail there Milly - and it's my fault for the way I worded it in the other thread. We got an offer for full charges + statutory interest that we had earnt on each charge up until the date we filed the claim, but no statutory interest at the daily rate was included in the total - this offer came after we had filed our claims at court and after we had been given a court date. I'm not sure if it makes a difference or not but just wanetd to point that out. If we had been offered the same before we filed the court claim then we would have still refused (in our situation).

 

You are completely right in that we were confident in what we were doing and this probably made a difference. Another important point (I think) is that our oldest charge was about 3 years old so the effect of compound interest wasn't so immense in our claims as it potentially can be.

 

But I stand by my opinions on the matter in that anybody who doesn't understand contractual interest and who can't put their arguments forward regarding it, should not consider adding it to their claims. I believe that if you are confident enough to bring a thoroughly researched case together then the Judge would look upon you favourably - no matter what their opinion on contractual interest is, and even if it got to court and the Judge was against contractual interest, I don't think it would go as far as getting your claim struck out. But if you turn up to court and don't have a case prepared and you have basically added contractual interest cause you thought it was an easy way to increase you claim amount then I don't think the Judge would appreciate this at all and they would probably be more inclined to take a harsh approach - and possibly award costs against you. That's the way I see it anyway, but obviously I could be completely wrong as I'm very far from being an expert.

 

Lucid

 

 

Still glad I did it:D so no worries Lucid:) By the way my interest charged is LOWER than the charges. So Ok {if Ok that is }in so much as not being excessive to a judge if this makes sense and I had the threat of RETURN of this money {no cheque or deposit in account was given in offer} if I broke confidentiality and I have and WILL continue to do so in helping my case as a litigant!!!

 

 

Still inspired!!!

Milly X

[lucid]

Hi milly,

 

Yes well we had the same thing - our interest was still lower than our charges. But there are some claims where contractual interest adds on an extremely high amount and I imagine the banks will want to put up more of a fight over it.

 

Lucid

[angry cat]

 

To many people before were filing claims for crazy amounts of interest with no understanding whatsoever of the risks or issues - the whole point of advising caution is to stop any potential disasters.

 

I hope people won't try to turn this into 'them and us' - we're all here for the same reason and we need to stand united.

 

Hi GaryH-

I think that you have hit the nail on the head re:

"Too many people before were filing claims for crazy amounts of interest".

 

I personally cannot see a problem about claiming back interest at the actual contractual rate of interest that was charged in respect of unlawful charges. If one uses a correct and reputable spreadsheet that will work out ones calculations at the compounded rate from the date that each fine was applied, to the date of making ones claim. After all, the interest was taken in respect of unlawful charges, therefore a bank should return the charges plus interest at their contractual rate.

 

My advice would be keep your claims as accurate as possible.

 

We are indeed, all members of this forum for the same reason...there is great strength in numbers.

 

Love

AC

[millymollymoo]

By the way off topic but I am a happy bunny today. I got £266 inclusive of £116 GWG from GE MONEY just from a phonecall. I also won £1500 from my insurer two/three weeks back from a phonecall for a fence not covere by Insurance!!!! I feel empowered. No letters sent ...nothing.

 

Milly X