Contractual Interest Discussion

[Guest willowb]

I'm back.....couldn't not look!

 

Thank you Caro for your input...

I just worry that so many people claim without understanding the risks.

Dead right!

 

Hope, the only reason that you would be advised to stop your claim now is that you have been offered the charges + 8% interest + Court fees....have you? If not then there is no reason why you should stop your claim for CI IMO.....all this has been covered in earlier posts.

 

The information is here if you want it, the fact that some people think there are risks and others don't makes no difference, as at the end of the day it is YOUR decision based on the knowledge you have gained here.

 

Some of you need to read the ERC claims that have failed in Court and see the devastation that a £7,500 barrister's bill can have. I would always advise caution as Caro said when taking a CI claim through on fast track or multi track (GOD NO!).

 

I just wonder what every one here wants? Someone to say, yeah go ahead, it'll be fine.......absolutely no one knows for sure, but if you are confident in your case then it's up to you.

 

Wxxx

[thereshope!]

I dont think weakness is an issue.

 

It takes guts to even begin to take on a massive financial institution such as a bank lol

 

But yes, confusion is certainly an issue.

 

Thats why we need BF to make a statement.

 

The goalposts have moved, and they will know that they have un-nerved us.

 

A little clarity is all that is needed. A united front from mods/staff etc.

 

Then an informed choice can be made by all.

 

Well, thats just IMHO ,FWIW !!!

 

Hope xx

[Guest willowb]

But even the mods have conflicting ideas about it don't they....

 

Caro....Life would be so boring if we all had the same opinions and ideas, and I see nothing wrong in people claiming in different ways as long as they understand what they are doing, and the implications. In the light of the mortgage ERC problems, I personally think it would be foolhardy to claim contractual interest outside the small claims court.

 

So, like I said, IMO the information is there and whichever road you take it's up to you.

 

Wxxx

[millymollymoo]

Its a rollercoaster Milly

 

So ,are you still claiming for t the contractual element ?

 

tbh, after all this doubt and confusion think I must admit defeat and throw in the towell.

 

Looks like its gonna just be the charges element for me Grrrrrrrrrr !!!

 

Hope xx

 

hi hope, with the two claims at the moment. I will have to see it through cos one I rejected the whole offer+ stat.

 

What is a shame is I was really gunning for them, felt I had made the right choice and was supported wholeheartedly by many peeps...oozing confidence and then opinions were changing fast about not stopping when offered the 8% stat. That this would be deemed unreasonable and the judge may awards costs ect ect.. I was not afraid before as I felt I had the WHOLE claim to argue about.. an then some thought I didn't, then more opinons that I did, didnt, did....see what I mean??? CONFUSION

 

It did not just affect me, loads of people are also CONFUSED, like me and some are in the same boat as me. I hope Bill does not mind me saying...what was a general consensus about claiming contractual and giving the same advice , which was the banks had not paid the full amount and to carry on, then became that any advice to continue was now not right and in Bills case was not fair :-? and the reply from garyh to bill that no one cared was just plain mean no 6 post at the top. I queried him on his conflicting opinions on the VERY thread that gave conflicting advice. I will say that he was FAIR in his answer and is entitled to change his mind though, so I am not attacking his decision now cos in two months it has changes. SO DON'T GET THE HUMP. All I am trying to say is that some newer newbie like me if reading the answers ,they WOULD be confused as it is conflicting . And to get it straight,Its people like Bill that have made me love this site so much.

 

This opinion has seemed to change and from a lot of Mods ect. to now stop at receiving full charges. HOWEVER, To be fair though their are alot of people that have got carried away and their claims have tripled to massive amounts because of the CI and half do NOT know the reason they are claiming it at all and if they end up in a court hearing would fail to put a valid argument across. THEIR IS TWO SIDES YOU SEE TO ANY ARGUMENT!!!

 

But, to make this clear to any new people starting a claim. I think that a sticky in the library by a mod should now be added for people to understand the reasons behind any attempt to claim contractual with warning signs given so that it is clear, all this posting that I and others do just adds to the confusion for anyone trying to get a grasp and EVERYBODY has different opinions as to advising and really does not help in any way when the answers given are conflicting.

 

Aside the normal process that other people have done and been successful with {no claim for interest } where everybody knows what to do cos there is a step by step guide. I firmly believe this confusion has come to this because there was no specific step by step guide added.

 

Bill good on you , this did need airing. I love you to bits, you have been so caring and helpful. I think you have done a fantastic job with helping people

 

MillyX

 

Milly X

[thereshope!]

Hi willow.

 

I have been offered just the charges .

 

If I had been offered the 8% interest on top, I would have accepted the offer.

 

I agree that it is up to the individual to make the choice.

 

But it needs to be an informed choice, which is difficult when there has been a mass sway back the other way !:-?

 

Like someone else posted, only you know if its your ' Deal or No Deal'

 

I have read extensively all the contractual interest posts( had the headache to prove it, too !) and really thought that I had got my head around the complexities and was confident that I could argue my case if it came to court.

 

But confusion has a way of making me doubt that I ever really got it !I

 

But thats just me !

 

Maybe i'm a little challenged in the grey matter department

 

Hope xx

[maxine989]

I feel the same Milly... just not sure what to do anymore...even though I have won two claims with 16.9 interest recently.

 

Maybe it is one of those issues that has no direct route... like willow said... whichever route we take is up to us. We have read plenty and have now we just got to make an individual well informed choice.

 

...but it aint half hard to make a choice! I don't know whether to accept the offer I received from egg or keep going (post 46)... hmmmm.....

[Guest willowb]

Hiya Hope:)

 

IMO it's not grey in your case, you have included CI in your prelim and LBA (if you are at that stage) and therefore you can proceed to issuing a claim with CI.....it will then (if they don't cough up first, which is more likely) be up to the Judge wether to award you the CI ontop of the charges or the 8% (have an alternative spreadie at the ready!)

 

That's how I see it.

 

Wxxx

[GaryH]

GaryH amongst others, recently advised me to accept my offer without CI.

Then when I checked his thread yesterday,he states that he has won his claim with full contractual and will most likely do future claims in the same way, claiming contractual.

 

Thats way, way, way of the mark - please don't mis-quote me. I said this;

 

Have you been offered 100% of the charges? If so, I'd think long and hard before pursuing a claim solely for contractual interest. The fact is that there is no solid or substantiated legal basis for claiming the banks contractual rate - there are strong arguements for it, yes, but arguements is all they are. Also, small claims litigation is all about cost effectively and expediantly resolving disputes, with strict empasis on mitigating your loss.

 

If you do continue, be fully prepared to argue your case for contractual in court.

I never advised you not to continue, I said be careful and think hard about it. I'm sorry it's not what you wanted to hear, but what I posted was completely correct and I only had your best interests in mind when I posted it. The fact that you've now mis-quoted me in an almost malicious manner is a total kick in the teeth.

 

So why advise me to accept a payment that doesnt include contractual interest ?

 

I DID'NT ADVISE YOU TO ACCEPT IT!!! If you refuse a settlement of the charges + 8% and proceed to court solely for CI, there are very real costs liability implications if you are not 100% sure of your arguement and if that arguement is rejected. All I was doing was giving you the facts so you could make your own informed decision.

 

I'm getting thoroughly ****ed off with all this. I'm going round in circles and I feel I'm being attacked for genuinely trying to do the best for people.

 

I wasn't aware of the possibility of costs liabilty when I was claiming contractual, and since then the ERC disaster has happened. I'm just trying to ensure that people understand that its potentially risky, I'm not saying definately DON'T claim it - just be aware of the issues.

[GaryH]

Also, people seem to be demanding a definitive answer on all this. I don't think there is one. You are claiming on an untested principle - there is nothing definitive. The important thing is to research the issues and understand the arguements and also the potential risks. If your confident, then go for it, if your not, then don't.

[Guest willowb]

Here you go Willow ...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/royal-bank-scotland/43071-dtollan-rbos.html

 

Glad to help YOU for a change!

Thanks sweetie;)

 

Good to see ya back willow, knew you woldn't have been able to resist. lol

 

Right to quote Karn in context here....

 

The contractual rate is not proven in court, some people have managed to negotiate it prior to court and many others (more) have accepted the 8% or pushed the contractual into the court room to a not great reception and gone on to stick with the 8%.

 

We have to take into account the pre-action protocols and note that the judge will take these into account when dealing with costs - and yes even in small claims.

 

I hope that clears things up a bit.

 

Contractual interest can be requested in letters and taken to the court steps, but if an offer for the full amount, s.69 and costs is given prior to the hearing you should take it - unless you have worked out a very good argument for it. It is not a right.

 

With standard interest, not applicable till court at all, if you receive an offer to refund ALL your charges before taking court action you must accept it.

 

 

 

PRe Action Protocols

4.7 The parties should consider whether some form of alternative dispute resolution procedure would be more suitable than litigation, and if so, endeavour to agree which form to adopt. Both the Claimant and Defendant may be required by the Court to provide evidence that alternative means of resolving their dispute were considered. The Courts take the view that litigation should be a last resort, and that claims should not be issued prematurely when a settlement is still actively being explored. Parties are warned that if this paragraph is not followed then the court must have regard to such conduct when determining costs;

 

Does that help Hope?

 

Wxxx

It's basically what I said in the last page.

[maxine989]

I think we have all hit the nail on the head this morning on this thread, where many of us have said more or less the same thing...

 

If your confident, then go for it, if your not, then don't.

 

unfortunately it isn't often as easy as that.... many of us did feel confident, but are now doubting oursleves.

 

Willow... I hope you're not still annoyed with me after yesterday. I really didn't mean to upset you by talking about Bill's treatment.

[cankster]

Well I'm in favour of going for it.

 

I am in court on Thursday against Natwest for contractual interest so should be fun.

I am then in court against halifax for contratual and over 6 years at the end of april.

 

Will advise what happens.

[millymollymoo]

PS Wheres the fighting CAG spirit we all know and love??

 

 

I know Tanz.

 

My spirit got up and left me when this mass confusion reared its ugly head.

 

I wish I had your drive and confidence, but I dont .

 

I did before, but not anymore.

 

It feels like the rug been pulled out from under me.

 

Like you, I have also put a claim on the backburner, in the hope that maybe we would have some clarification.

 

GaryH amongst others, recently advised me to accept my offer without CI.

Then when I checked his thread yesterday,he states that he has won his claim with full contractual and will most likely do future claims in the same way, claiming contractual.

 

So why advise me to accept a payment that doesnt include contractual interest ?

 

I would understand it if I had only just decided recently that I wanted to claim the contractual interest,but that is not the case.

My claim with NW has included contractual interest from Pre-lim stage.

 

So yep,confusion has well and truly zapped my spirit:mad:

 

Hope xx

 

 

See the same advice being given that is conflicting.

 

Willow do not get annoyed and read this post in full please before getting annoyed. .

 

What are the semantics of a contractual claim cos it is not clear from your post?

 

Claim it then stop with 8% now cos it does keep coming to that

conclusion, this is confusing as you must give the reasons to stop.

 

aS i SAID A STEP BY STEP GUIDE needs to be added. Cos otherwise full explanations need to be given when advising people to stop their contractual claim as otherwise their would of been no point claiming it in the first place. It answers nothing and makes the person confused.

 

A story in contrast..........

 

Mindzai and Lucid I think are the contractual king and queen and NEVER excepted any offer, {agreed THEIR DECISION RIGHT OR WRONG!!} NOT EVEN 8% stat before filing. They won through perseverance. AND WERE QUITE HAPPY TO ARGUE THEIR CASE. However read on as this IS important.......IF people think it is easy it is not and good letters like Mindzai and Lucid did were I believe the reason they got the CI in their case only!!! THIS MAY NOT BE THE CASE FOR OTHERS WHO HAVE NO CLUE and a poorly presented case will get you maybe NOTHING!!!So yes to agree with Willow if she means this:) {hope you have read this and NOT got the grumps so far as I am agreeing with you}if you are not prepared to lose as each case is different then STOP there!!!!! Good advice willow:)

 

 

Milly XX

[Guest willowb]

LOL Milly, I read it 3 times!!!

 

THIS MAY NOT BE THE CASE FOR OTHERS WHO HAVE NO CLUE and a poorly presented case will get you maybe NOTHING!!!

 

As far as I see it, a person would only end up with nothing if they have acted against the protocols in post#66 and even then no one knows for sure how a certain Judge on any given day may choose to direct it. You may be liable for costs if he's in a bad mood and feels that you have 'abused' the system or he may award you just the charges....who knows.

 

It is safer to stick to the protocols for guidance.....between us I'm sure we could come up with a 'safe' point plan for guidance.....copy and pasted around the forum for those claiming CI, maybe then there would be less confusion and less risks taken?

 

Willow... I hope you're not still annoyed with me after yesterday. I really didn't mean to upset you by talking about Bill's treatment.

Gosh, no....I'm sorry, I was a little stressed!

 

Willow do not get annoyed and read this post in full please before getting annoyed.

Bloomin' eck have I got a 'grumpy' reputation now? Move over Bill!!!

 

 

Wxxx

[maxine989]

Me again

 

The above quotes are exactly what worries/unerves people (post 66) like me who DID feel confident, have already won with contractual interest on other claims and have further claims coming to the final stages... but are now unsure of what we believe in...

 

Phrases like... 'it is not a right' (to claim 16.9 or higher)... and... 'You must accept it' (an offer with 8%).

 

Then others say... 'if you feel confident go for it'... and 'reclaim of full interest would not be a windfall for you, it would merely be refund of what was unlawfully mugged from you'.

 

So you see why many of us are getting confused and worried that we are going down the wrong path (yes... yes... I am sorry to talk about the dreaded path once again).

 

Please don't shout at me anyone... I am not having a go at anyone.

 

As well as the mass confusion surrounding interest, there are also many members (including myself) who feel that some of the responses from other CAG members are getting quite unfriendly. It is making many members feel unable to make comments... especially those with lower post counts. It's as though we are not worthy of making a comment.

 

I have spoken to many members via PM recently who feel this way. They have decided not to use CAG anymore which is unfortunate.

 

Again... I am not pointing fingers or meaning to upset anyone... I just wanted to make this comment on this thread in view of recent discussions.

 

I know there are others out there that feel this way. Not all of us have a thick skin... the whole proceedure is scary enough as it is. Many do not respond well to dictatorial comments.

 

Thankfully there are many benevolent members who councel and inform rather than lock horns.

 

So lets make a point of discussing the issue of interest and the options available without any disregard for others.

 

Peace and love (that makes me sound well dippy... but I am sure you get the vibe).

[maxine989]

Thanks willow...

 

I think the stress is getting to us all at times.

[thereshope!]

Thats way, way, way of the mark - please don't mis-quote me. I said this;

 

 

I never advised you not to continue, I said be careful and think hard about it. I'm sorry it's not what you wanted to hear, but what I posted was completely correct and I only had your best interests in mind when I posted it. The fact that you've now mis-quoted me in an almost malicious manner is a total kick in the teeth.

 

 

 

I DID'NT ADVISE YOU TO ACCEPT IT!!! If you refuse a settlement of the charges + 8% and proceed to court solely for CI, there are very real costs liability implications if you are not 100% sure of your arguement and if that arguement is rejected. All I was doing was giving you the facts so you could make your own informed decision.

 

I'm getting thoroughly ****ed off with all this. I'm going round in circles and I feel I'm being attacked for genuinely trying to do the best for people.

 

I wasn't aware of the possibility of costs liabilty when I was claiming contractual, and since then the ERC disaster has happened. I'm just trying to ensure that people understand that its potentially risky, I'm not saying definately DON'T claim it - just be aware of the issues.

 

GaryH.

 

I never meant to come across as attacking you !

 

My post wasnt made to be malicious to you either.

I valued you taking the time to post and I agree with much of what you posted.

 

Sorry if I misquoted you, I should have pulled my thread up and re-read your comments before posting on this thread,as I feel that maybe you posted without fully understanding my offer.

 

I was offered the full amount of charges claimed for.There was no offer of un-auth contratual , auth contractual or 8%,which is where my confusion has stemmed from.

 

As I see it, I havent been offered full settlement.

 

All I was trying to do was highlight why there is so much confusion and you have taken that as a personal attack.

 

It was never meant to be as such.

 

Granted,there is no definitive answer,but clarification in the way of a sticky would be a good idea.

 

At least it would help people( us newbs in particular) in the for and against, arguments and save the less confident amongst us the headache of reading the contractual interest thread from start to finish.

 

The point of this thread,as I understand it,and please correct me if I am wrong,is to try and focus us and gain maybe a little clarity.

 

That is all.

It wasnt intended,I think,as a means to attack one another and it has never been my intention to do so:mad:

 

Hope XX

[thereshope!]

Thanks sweetie;)

 

 

 

Right to quote Karn in context here....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does that help Hope?

 

 

Wxxx

It's basically what I said in the last page.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Willow:)

 

It kinda helps !

 

The sticking point for me is this

 

Ok my claim was for £2106 in charges + £2000 in contractual interest at the un-auth rate of 29.86%.

 

I was offered £2106 in total.

 

The general undertones are that it would be advisable to accept the offer + 8% interest.

 

This is where I get confused !

 

I thought I couldnt ask for 8% until I file an N1 ?

 

I received my offer between pre-lim and lba stage( their offer letter to me crossed in the post with my lba letter to them !)

 

So,how can I ask for 8% at this stage ?

 

I am still only at LBA stage .

 

Confused ?

 

Hope xx

[millymollymoo]

LOL Milly, I read it 3 times!!!

 

 

 

As far as I see it, a person would only end up with nothing if they have acted against the protocols in post#66 and even then no one knows for sure how a certain Judge on any given day may choose to direct it. You may be liable for costs if he's in a bad mood and feels that you have 'abused' the system or he may award you just the charges....who knows.

 

It is safer to stick to the protocols for guidance.....between us I'm sure we could come up with a 'safe' point plan for guidance.....copy and pasted around the forum for those claiming CI, maybe then there would be less confusion and less risks taken?

 

 

Gosh, no....I'm sorry, I was a little stressed!

 

 

Bloomin' eck have I got a 'grumpy' reputation now? Move over Bill!!!

 

 

Wxxx

 

 

Willow you have respect from me:)

 

Milly X

[natwesttookmymoney]

Thanks Willow:)

 

It kinda helps !

 

The sticking point for me is this

 

Ok my claim was for £2106 in charges + £2000 in contractual interest at the un-auth rate of 29.86%.

 

I was offered £2106 in total.

 

The general undertones are that it would be advisable to accept the offer + 8% interest.

 

This is where I get confused !

 

I thought I couldnt ask for 8% until I file an N1 ?

 

I received my offer between pre-lim and lba stage( their offer letter to me crossed in the post with my lba letter to them !)

 

So,how can I ask for 8% at this stage ?

 

I am still only at LBA stage .

 

Confused ?

 

Hope xx

 

And understandably so, Hope.

 

You're at the very early stages at the moment. Stick with it - you will get a better offer.

 

Have a look at my next post for a bit of encouragement.

 

Westy

[maxine989]

GaryH.

 

I never meant to come across as attacking you !

 

My post wasnt made to be malicious to you either.

 

Hope

 

I don't think you came accross in an attacking way towards Gary H... you were just confused over the 8% thing... that's obvious in your posts... it's easy to confused and slightly mis-quote, it's not the end of the world... you weren't being nasty...

 

You got a pretty sharp response though!!

 

I'll say what I said earlier:

'As well as the mass confusion surrounding interest, there are also many members (including myself) who feel that some of the responses from other CAG members are getting quite unfriendly. It is making many members feel unable to make comments... especially those with lower post counts. It's as though we are not worthy of making a comment'.

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, All

 

I think the waters in this debate about what can and can't win have become a bit muddied because of the mortgage ERC (early redemption charge) disaster (for which read: loss, which cost the loser a lot of money). ERC and bank charges have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

 

Why do I say this?

 

When I did a full term (well, nearly a full term) of Law at College many years ago, I was told that just because something looks similar, doesn't mean it is the same. For example: if you are run over on a pedestrian crossing at 4.15pm by a moped, that is a completely different case from an incident where you are run over by a moped on a pedestrian crossing at 8.45pm. Or even 9.30am. Even if it's the same pedestrian crossing and the same moped. If it's a car, a different zebra crossing and the dead of night then there's no connection at all.

 

So - the loss in the ERC claims doesn't have a bearing. Apart from anything else, the mortgage contracts related to ERC all included reference to the ERC and gave details of how it would be charged.

 

So let us not draw either conclusions or comparisons from ERCs.

 

Can we claim contractual interest? I believe we can, and with confidence - but I also think the wording on the claim has to be carefully done. I believe - though I may be wrong - that the case that the judge indicated may not succeed talked about 'contractual interest'. As some have pointed out, there is no automatic contractual right or entitlement in the contract (the Terms & Conditions) for the claimant to charge the bank the same rate of interest as the bank charges it.

 

What my particulars of claim said (and I commend it to the group) was (and I quote):

 

"6. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

 

a) the return of the amounts debited to the Claimant’s account in respect of charges in the sum of £xxxx (amount in words Pounds Sterling) and any interest charged thereon, detailed in the attached Schedule and amounting to £xxxxx (amount in words) as at 27 November 2006 and accumulating at 17.95 per centum per annum (the Defendant’s current advertised ‘authorised overdraft rate’), calculated daily"

 

 

So I'm making it quite clear that I am claiming my losses, plus (in 6©) statutory interest thereon.

 

It seems to be an effective approach.

 

Westy

[natwesttookmymoney]

Oh - almost forgot to mention.

 

Just had a chat with a nice young woman at Cobbetts to clarify a couple of points about charges, interest thereon (contractual interest if you wish) and statutory interest.

 

My cheque is on its way, Special Delivery.

 

I really shouldn't tease so much, should I?

 

Westy

[maxine989]

Oh - almost forgot to mention.

 

Just had a chat with a nice young woman at Cobbetts to clarify a couple of points about charges, interest thereon (contractual interest if you wish) and statutory interest.

 

My cheque is on its way, Special Delivery.

 

I really shouldn't tease so much, should I?

 

Westy

 

Hey Westy... you know when you recieved your copy of cobbetts AQ?

 

Did it say this on it?

 

In this mornings post I had a copy of Cobbetts Allocation Questionare. In the 'other information' section it said this:

 

The Claimant has not shown that he has reasonable grounds for bringing the claim and despite the Defendant requesting that the Calimant remedy the lack of particularity pleaded in the particulars of Claim, the Claimant has failed to do so. Case managements directions cannot be proposed until the Claimant fully particularises his claim. In light of this, the Defendant may amend its Defence or apply to ostrike out.

 

Sorry to sound a bit dumb, but....

[maxine989]

P.S. Congratulations Westy