_/\_ Forthepeople Vs NatWest Default _/\_

[forthepeople]

Just over a year ago NatWest defaulted my girlfriend and passed the debt to Triton. We immediately settled the debt in full when we found out. We were never sent a default notice to our knowledge. As we applied for a fixed-rate mortgage at the time, this got declined and we had to take a higher, variable-rate mortgage.

 

 

NatWest accept in several letters that despite the account being opened within the last six years, they cannot supply us

a true copy of the alleged agreement (contract);

a signed true, certified copy of the original default notice

We had been using this forum http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/11659-how-get-your-default.html

(thanks poweful_rougue) and slightly adapted the letters for our responses.

 

It is now over one month since their last letter, all of ours which we sent recorded delivery.

 

 

A question if I may:

Are they in breach of anything but the CCA 1974? If there is no contract then they surely never had the right to pass on information to record a default notice? Would this mean in turn they have breached the DPA 1998?

 

We will at this time submit a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Re their non-compliance to remove the default notice as unsubstantiated.

 

If they have broken the DPA we will also complain to the Information Comissioner, but have they?

 

Is it worth us involving Trading Standards too, as we said we would, and on what grounds?

 

 

I will update regularly and I welcome ALL comments, encouragement and advice!

 

 

Chris

[forthepeople]

After numerous letters from NatWest, they have sent us a final response letter:

Dear Miss xxxx

 

Account number: xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx

 

You have recently been in contact with various members of staff about the problems with the default that was registered against your above account. Your complaint has been passed to me as part of my role is to review such complaints and write what we call the Bank's final response letter. This gives you the option, should you remain dissatisfied, to refer your case to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

Having fully reviewed your account, I can see that from November 2001 until March 2006 (inclusive) your account was overdue on x occasions and x insufficient payments were made. In additions to this your account had also exceeded the allocated credit limit x times.

 

I note that on the 18 April 2002 and 18 November 2002 your credit limit was reduced in accordance of clause 9.1 of the conditions of use, as you made irregular payments to your account. This information was detailed on your statements.

 

Although I am unable to supply you with a copy of your original application form, I believe that this has had no influence on the reason why the default was registered against you, as clearly you had breached the terms and conditions of your account on numerous occasions.

 

This letter concludes the Bank's complaint investigation process. If you are dissatisfied with the outcome of my investigation you can ask the Financial Ombudsman Service to consider your complaint within six months of the date of this letter. The enclosed leaflet gives you informatrion about what they do and how you can contact them.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

xxxxxxx xxxxxx

Team Manager, Customer Care Team

 

 

This is their 5th and final letter, received yesterday. They admit they cannot supply an original copy of the application form above and in other letters cannot supply true copies of the default notice (something they don't apparently keep).

 

Which route is best now? Financial Ombudsman, Information Commissioner or Office of Fair Trading? Legal action?

 

Have they broken the Data Protection Act 1998 by registering the default in this case?

 

Hope this documents helps other on the forum - please help me to demolish NatWest!

[steven4064]

 

your account was overdue on x occasions and x insufficient payments were made. In additions to this your account had also exceeded the allocated credit limit x times.

 

Presumambly, you were charged £20-30 for every one of the x's. How much does that add up to, and what proportion is it of your overdraft when the default was registered?

 

Firstly, you should reclaim the charges anyway.

 

Secondly, if the default would not have been registered if the the charges had not been there (ie the charges account for a significant proprtion of the overdraft), then you can dispute that you owed them the money and make a complaint that they have therefore committed an offence under the Data Protection Act in sharing your data with Triton.

 

Thirdly, you can require them to remove the default at the same time as reclaiming the charges. The initial request letter and LBA in the templates library have paragraphs for this.

 

I'm not an expert, but this is what I understand from reading lots of threads on this site. Perhaps someone will correct anything I have said which is not correct.

 

Steven

[forthepeople]

Sorry for not stating earlier, this is a credit card, not a current account, but same difference, right?

 

We are just putting in a claim for charges, should have done earlier really but the default is the main problem at the moment. I too wondered if charges were somewhat responsible for this steven4064, so will keep you informed.

 

Triton is just a scare tactic as is another another name for a team within the NatWest, it's not another company so couldn't have them there.

 

Thanks for your help, will file N1 this week, any good threads for help with this? The main Surely Bonds thread was good and was thinking of using similar (as most other people have done!).

[steven4064]

Thanks for your help, will file N1 this week, any good threads for help with this?

 

There are loads - just follow through one of the sucess threads. A lot use MCOL but you should be able to find on that used the N1 route fairly easily.

 

Post your Particulars of Claim before you submit them so that someone else can check for bloopers.

 

We are about to submit our N1 against GE Money - see out PoC here (http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/post-536389.html) which was checked throuh by westy. Yours may or may not be a bit different.

 

You should also check throufh the notes they give you with the form very carefully to make sure everything is included. It doesn'tseem to be too hard (although I guess time will tell!)

 

Steven

[forthepeople]

Brilliant, I'll keep an eye on yours too, good luck.

[un1boy]

Hi guys,

 

Ok, so from my understanding the situation is as follows:

 

Your Girlfriend had a credit card account which was defaulted. They have admitted they don't have a copy of the agreement and that they don't have a copy of the original default notice too.

 

I would like to know though how you requested this? If you requested the agreement using a sec 78 request then they have commited a criminal offence and you MUST Report them to Trading Standards immediately.

 

If it was just an "informal" request, then I would suggest sendting the sec 78 request so it is formal, waiting the 12 working days + 30 calendar days then hit them (it makes it easier that way).......

 

At this stage though, I would claim back all charges first, as once you hit them with the sec 78 request, they will have to remove all info from your files and refund all monies you have paid agaisnt it.

 

Can you clarify the position for me please?

 

Thanks.

[forthepeople]

This was the body of our first letter sent in September 2006 making reference to the CCA (all went sent recorded):

 

After recently obtaining a copy of my credit file from Equifax I am concerned to note that your company has placed a "Default" notice against an account I held with you. The default was settled as soon as I became aware of this, however I have no recollection of ever receiving such a notice of default, and I therefore require you to substantiate this data.

 

1. You must supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit). Your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £1 cheque to cover the statutory fee.

 

2. Please also supply me with a signed, true and certified copy of the original default notice.

 

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.

 

I would request that this data is provided to me within the next 14 days. If you are unable to provide this data then I require all adverse information to be removed completely, including any defaults that may have been applied. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry will not be acceptable.

 

Numerous letters were sent back and forth stating that as they admit they don't have the documents but as you can see from their final response letter they sent, they have just waffled about charges and avoided the matter!

 

We referred them to the Ombudsman 2 weeks ago and will check what is going on with them on Monday. We are going ahead with claiming back charges but only started this 1 week ago.

 

As many people seem to know a LOT more about these things than I do (thank you lots un1boy), I'll report them to Trading Standards on Monday too! Our second letter to them included:

 

As 28 days has now passed from the date of my letter you are now in breach of your duties under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act. If you do not answer my original questions and reply within 7 days I will have no choice but to escalate the matter to the relevant authorities including the Banking Ombudsman, Office of Fair Trading and the Information Commissioner's Office.

 

..so they were warned!

 

When you say "once you hit them with the sec 78 request, they will have to remove all info from your files and refund all monies you have paid agaisnt it" does that mean they will have to refund payments we made to the card? That would be very interesting.

 

Myself and my partner are forever indebted to those helping us on the forum - thank you all lots .

 

Chris

[un1boy]

Ok, so have requested the information formally, which goes in your "favour."

 

Under the terms of the CCA, if they have not satisfied your request (sent ALL relevant docs) within 12 working days they are in default and this means they cannot enforce the agreement (ie you don't have to pay them, they should really remove all data from your CRA's etc). Then, after a further calendar month they commit a criminal offence. If they commit an offence then they can only enforce the agreement by getting a court order.

 

This basically means that even if they provide all documentation after they have commited an offence, they would have to apply to a court to get an order to get you to resume payments.

 

Ok, so that understood, means you are now in a good position to get the debt wiped out: If there is no agreement then legally there is no debt. If they are still processing your data on your credit files then they are also commiting a criminla offence under the DPA by porcessing defamatory and untrue data which has been obtained illegally.

 

As they cannot provide the agreement, you could go as far as claiming back ALL monies ever paid in to it.....however, i t might be better for you to negotiate a payment!!

 

If they have the agreement but, say, haven't sent you the terms and conditions relevant at the time, or the statement of account (as in my case) then the debt still exists, so I can't claim to get all monies back.

 

I would claim your charges back first, then go for the compliance of the CCA....it would be difficult to take them to court saying you don't acknowledge the debt, but that you want xx amount of charges back!! So, get them back first and then sort out them refunding all details and removing the defaults.

 

I am in the process of reporting my bank to Trading Standards as it is TS who can only prosecute....although they don't always prosecute them. I am also reporting them to the Information Commissioner as they are processing my data illegally at the moment.

 

At the end of the day, no matter what happens I have to acknowledge the debt as they have produced the agreement, otherwise I would commit fraud. But, they can only enforce it by going to a Judge whom is going to want them to expalin why they have commited a criminal offence.

 

Sorry to waffle on, does this make sense?

[forthepeople]

Yes, make a lot of sense, thanks!

 

Our debt was settled immediately upon finding out about it so is not outstanding.

 

If you think it is best, I will hang fire and claim all charges back first and then dispute the default.

 

Because we will be seeking compensation due to increased mortgage payments (as we had to take out a high-rate tracker, default denied us our low fixed-rate mortgage) would it be best to dispute the default separately of charges, if only for simplicity, or not?

 

I was thinking

1) claim charges then

2) dispute default and claim compensation for mortgage/distress

 

Would you still report them to OFT or after claim for charges?

 

Thanks for all your help..!

[un1boy]

Hi,

 

Let me think this over for abit and give others the chance to comment; I just want to make sure we doing everything in the right order, that's all!!

[un1boy]

Yes, make a lot of sense, thanks!

 

Our debt was settled immediately upon finding out about it so is not outstanding.

 

If you think it is best, I will hang fire and claim all charges back first and then dispute the default.

 

Because we will be seeking compensation due to increased mortgage payments (as we had to take out a high-rate tracker, default denied us our low fixed-rate mortgage) would it be best to dispute the default separately of charges, if only for simplicity, or not?

 

I was thinking

1) claim charges then

2) dispute default and claim compensation for mortgage/distress

 

Would you still report them to OFT or after claim for charges?

 

Thanks for all your help..!

 

I think you're right with regard to the steps you should take.

 

You should claim back all charges first really and then we can deal with the default and unenforcable agreement.

 

I will be better equipt to help you by then as I am going through a default removal myself so should be able to help you better.....

[Stornoway]

Just want to subscribe and say good luck !

[forthepeople]

Thank you!

 

Still awaiting them to supply us with statements of charges. They've not cashed our cheque yet and we sent it on 12 February. Guessing they're overwhelmed!

[un1boy]

Guessing they're overwhelmed!

 

No doubt about it!!

[forthepeople]

The Financial Ombudsman have lost our complaint form against NatWest, which we submitted begining February.

 

Was quite happy to leave the default until charges are refunded but a number of implications at the moment mean it may cause serious problems if isn't dealt with soon.

 

My partner will submit another copy of complaint to FOS but I think this will take too long. I'm happy to do the N1 now, so as to get the default removed ASAP. It all looks VERY dauntiing but will try to prepare something and post soon.

[un1boy]

The Financial Ombudsman have lost our complaint form against NatWest, which we submitted begining February.

 

Was quite happy to leave the default until charges are refunded but a number of implications at the moment mean it may cause serious problems if isn't dealt with soon.

 

My partner will submit another copy of complaint to FOS but I think this will take too long. I'm happy to do the N1 now, so as to get the default removed ASAP. It all looks VERY dauntiing but will try to prepare something and post soon.

 

 

Ok please do - I've not ventured into the N1 area for default removals yet, but I am drafting POC's to that effect, using other threads etc.....if you need any help, post and we will all try - plus, I can give you refs to other similar threads!

[un1boy]

Any update yet matey?

[forthepeople]

This is what Ive got so far. Will work on it some more and hopefully post the finished piece in a few days. Any comments or advice are welcomed!

 

 

 

• The Claimant had an account xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx ("the Account") with the Defendant which was opened on xx/xx/xxxx and closed on xx/xx/xxxx.

• The defendant entered a default notice marked ‘settled’ against the claimant’s credit reference files on xx/xx/xxxx.

• The claimant contends that the defendant has failed to comply with s. 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to provide a copy of the executed agreement and a signed, true and certified copy of the original default notice under s.78(1). Under s.78(6) of this Act it also states that if the creditor cannot supply this information they may not enforce the agreement and if the default continues for one month they have committed an offence. The default has existed for over ten months despite notification of this breach so have committed an offence.

• Will insert relevance Data Protection Act stating why cannot process my data without executed agreement. Where is the law for this anybody?

• The defendant acknowledges that they are required by law to keep executed agreements for six years but it is stated to the claimant in letter dated xx/xx/xxxx that they do not hold the agreement, thus committing an offence. Where is the legislation for this so I can link to it, anybody know – is this point worth mentioning?

• Will explain how default led to low fixed-rate mortgage application being denied and how we had to take out a higher-rate tracker mortgage which has led to increased costs with rate of inflation.

• Accordingly the claimant seeks:
  a) The defendant to remove the default notice under breach of s.78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
  b) Court Costs.
  c) Compensation of £xxx due to increased mortgage costs under anybody any idea which legislation at the discretion of the court.

I believe that the contents of these particulars of claim are true.

[un1boy]

Hey,

 

did you get file the claim?

[un1boy]

Hi Forthepeople.

 

Any update at all?

[forthepeople]

We decided to claim charges back before continuing with the default removal mate. We issued our Letter Before Action on Monday 26 March so they have until 09 April to comply to return us £628.87. If not, then it goes up to about £770 with the extra interest with the N1!

 

Have been following your case with interest, you know it's just a matter of time. The question is: how much time?! Keep in there,

 

Chris

[un1boy]

We decided to claim charges back before continuing with the default removal mate. We issued our Letter Before Action on Monday 26 March so they have until 09 April to comply to return us £628.87. If not, then it goes up to about £770 with the extra interest with the N1!

 

Have been following your case with interest, you know it's just a matter of time. The question is: how much time?! Keep in there,

 

Cool, have you got a chargees thread? I'll keep an eye on it!

 

Which case of mine have you been following? I know what you mean, that is the question - how much time?

 

Also I would suggest not putting things in your posts that may identify you (like your name) as the MIB look over this forum.

[forthepeople]

Good call about not putting my name here, thanks!

 

I'm going to begin a charges thread today, did receive an offer of £199 yesterday which is ridiculous. N1 time for the charges methinks!

[un1boy]

Good call about not putting my name here, thanks!

 

I'm going to begin a charges thread today, did receive an offer of £199 yesterday which is ridiculous. N1 time for the charges methinks!

 

Cool, don't forget to give us the link to it!