licensed breeder Elizabeth Turner, Puppy farm & genetically sick pups.

[Lesley A]

I purchased a 15 week old Cavalier King Charles Spaniel pup on the Coronation weekend from licensed breeder  Elizabeth Turner, ravensroost, Beechley Fields, Minety, Swindon.  

Jax had clearly never been handled, was fearful of humans, I was not able to see his mom as the breeder had just had a new custom built bungalow built on her several acres of land so no animals were allowed inside.  His rear legs splayed out sideways, he backed up into his cage and had to be manhandled by the breeder to get him out. 

She had vaccine 1 done at 6 weeks and apparently vet checked (no vet report produced) and a grade 3 heart murmur was declared on the receipt she produced.   She failed to return him for any follow up or the second jab.  Despite that, she admitted keeping him in a pen with 39 other dogs including Rottweilers and pugs, all used for breeding.  He was not KC registered. (This obviously shows she knew his genetics would not meet their standards in my opinion). 

Upon arrival home with Jax the pup, it was evident he was in pain with his ears. They are heavy floppy ears so once opened, a stench was evident and a thick black discharge was rife within the whole ear.  I had to wait until the Tuesday to obtain vet care as it was bank holiday.  

He had a severe infection.  He could not commence vaccinations because of the infection and it was still being treated 6 weeks later.  He has black discharge remaining deep within the ear which cannot be cleaned unless use anaesthetic - he cannot have this done due to the rarity and severity of the cardiac issue until the heart is fixed.  That means ongoing infections requiring invasive treatment.  My vet also stated a grade 6 murmur and a severe heart abnormality must be the cause.   He advised a heart scan.  

A few days later, Jax collapsed 2/3 times within an hour, was vomiting and had a distended tummy. The scan was done but a Clinical Director vet had never seen the heart abnormality despite decades of experience. he could not diagnose or treat it.  

during another vomiting episode, my vet asked for blood tests as the pup was pale and looked anaemic.  The results confirmed anaemia and clotting issues. 
the vet recommended a specialist vet and an eco cardio gram - £1500 plus blood tests. this showed the need for cardiac surgery to both save his life, allow a symptomless life and a normal life span. Without surgery he will die before age 5 and those 5 years will be very problematic for him. There’s an optimum age of 8 months for his surgery.  he requires beta blockers to reduce the extreme pressures within his heart which also make him I’ll causing convulsions and lethargy.  

A refund with the dog being returned was offered but under the SOGA I am not obliged to return him.  No other option was offered.  She has refused to send any documents such as parentage genetics, her vet report for Jax or her license etc.  

he does not have a grade 3 murmur at all.  
I do not have her vet report showing a grade murmur - just the breeders claim.  
 I do not have a ‘product’ of satisfactory standards, fit for purpose or as described per advert   

the breeder has been kept informed,  I asked her for a £500 contribution to his care if no refund was granted   She told me to let a court decide a remedy   She is now ignoring my messages and told me to contact her solicitors. She is clearly hoping I will go away  she believes she has no liability as a grade 3 murmur was declared by her. had she homes him following her vets grade 3 diagnosis to observe if this issue was impacting his daily life, she would have seen the signs of illness. 
she failed to have the murmur reassessed at a later date as some murmurs go away - if not further tests would have been done and she would have discovered the severity of the pups health issues. 

I believe she had reasonable knowledge that genetically I’ll dogs were being bred, birthed and sold  this makes her liable for the cost of his vet bills for life according to Google ????? 

I have involved Trading Standards and her LA. 
I will now have to initiate court action.  

I have paid out approx £2k on his care and screening and £5k is due for the op booked in 8 weeks time she. He reaches 8 months old.  

what are my key phrases to quote in her letter or rights please anyone.  

I will update and happy to oust this breeder.  

[Lesley A]

Hi All,  

thank you so much for helping so quickly.  I paid £550.00 for Jax by bank transfer. 

the breeder requested I did not use the Letsafe payment option on Freeds as she struggled with technology and that route of payment had caused her problems accessing funds historically.  

I would like to point out that I never intended to encourage puppy farming - this did not appear to be a puppy farm.  When I  envision a puppy farm, I imagine squalid ground with tethered/caged, overcrowded conditions with visibly sick animals.  This was not the scenario on those premises.  

There were huge double gates that led to a driveway, I could hear dogs but no pen or kennels were visible. The driveway was lined with horse stables that appeared clean and had fresh straw out and her newly built log bungalow lay at the end of that drive.  She was a mild mannered lady of approx 60 years old.  

I do have cognitive issues so with the gift of hindsight realise I may not have assessed the situation correctly.  I believed declaring a murmur at all meant she was honest and transparent.  It simply did not ‘fit’ the image I held of a puppy farm.  

I note your comments about keeping this below £10k due to costs battles in court which is why I was willing to settle for that as settlement.  I simply wanted all my funds refunded which to date amount to between £2.5/3k, his £5k surgery covered, his ear surgery covered with a little spare for his drugs and any unforeseen costs that cannot be quoted for.  Or the remaining 2k as compensation.  If I obtain bills for years to come, it may well take me over £10k ??? 

If it goes to court, I was going to ask the vet fees are paid for the life span of the dog including the surgeries he needs to give him a chance   This is an open ended figure but I have read the breeder is liable for such if licensed and had reasonable knowledge she may potentially have bred and/or sold genetically sick pups  - how would I know the figure to sue for.

 I was also requesting £3-5k in compo for the immense pain and succeeding of this poor pup and I  - depending on how far she forces me to go.  

She’s affluent and could afford all the care he needs. Or alternatively, ask for an order of £10k in full & final settlement (my priority funding his £5k surgery in 8 weeks),

also hoping  to put an order on her via a judge that limits her breeding, enforces her to license at the Higher Standard where KC registration is then necessary or have the court enforce regular LA unannounced spot checks - I was willing to ask the Judge to order anything to stop this woman - who as you comment as no interest in suffering of pups.  

She would have destroyed him if I had retuned him. I merely asked her for £550.00 refund that would have made me go away.  She’s will now regret this.   m thanks for this invaluable support all. 

I will obtain the reports and prepp a LoC (this could be lengthy, should I upload it onto here or just get back when it’s done? 

I am posting a 10 page letter (inc the background, details, docs I have requested from breeder and remedy to her legal rep worded as per Trading Standards advice.  Does this count as a letter of claim ? 
regards 

lesley.  

[Lesley A]

hi.  
I understand and appreciate the reality check.  It helps forming correspondence.  Thank you.  
I have requested an idea of future vet bills for Jax.  The cardiac specialist has said this is an impossible request/report to write.  Impossible to know or guess in advance.    
Quotes for surgeries (ears & heart) can be done. Benefits of surgery can be reported on but not future estimates of all related bills for vet care  
He also states that other cardiac specialist will provide the same costings for surgery as cardiac specialists are limited and charge similar rate   I have that response in writing too   

I await a response to the same request by my vet.  Does his referral to Willows count as the second 

If willows counts as that second vet  verification of his condition - I have that report and quote.  
thank you.  
 

[Lesley A]

Sorry, 

Willows is the cardiac specialist Jax was referred to by my own vet. 
They would go the cardiac surgery.  
There’s one quote for the surgery off them.  
do I need a second from another cardiac specialist too? 
I do have their reports quotes and comment on life span without surgery.  

[Lesley A]

Update.  
I wrote the breeder by recorded delivery as per Trading Standards advice.  She refused to accept delivery so the letter was returned unread.  
I now have no choice but to go to court.  She is simply not engaging.  
The local Authority are investigating this licensed breeder. 
I have cognitive issues so a particulars of claim  is my current obstacle.  
many advice would be appreciated.  
I have the vet reports, prognosis quotes receipts etc.  

[Lesley A]

It’s a long one.  I thought it would double up as the particulars of claim.  I will send the pdf asap. I need help to do that.  
thank you.  

[Lesley A]

Just to clarify- I asked Trading standards to get involved to report the breeder and prior to knowing this forum and support existed.  
I would prefer the support from here. 
I explained my cognitive issues so I am awaiting a friend to get the letter I sent to the breeder uploaded here in pdf format so the information requested will be here by tomorrow.  
thank you. 

[Lesley A]

Apologies. Thank you for informing me.

I have removed my name now.

JAX to solicitor CAG.pdf

[Lesley A]

When I initially contacted the breeder she told me to go to court and told me who her solicitors were fir service of documents. 
dhe refused this letter by recorded delivery.  Her solicitors have not responded.  Both the breeder and solicitor were issued with this letter plus vet reports and receipts for vet care etc.  

[Lesley A]

Hi

Thank you for your advice. The cognitive issues are impacting my ability to put the correct content in the court letters and structuring rather than deadlines. You are correct when you refer to me making threats of actions on deadlines i am not meeting and I had become aware of that. However, after writing the file and sending it, I discovered the PAP and the fact the courts would not appreciate me filing a claim unless the breeder had had 12 weeks to offer remedy out of court. sticking to the deadlines within my letter to the breeder would have put me within those 12 weeks. 

The breeder has clarified her situation and those 12 weeks will be up by the time I prep the court docs and lodge the claim.

I have included the chronology as you request but is this now too basic and lacking detail. Thank you for this invaluable support. 

 

Jax chronology.pdf

[Lesley A]

Ok, I understand. the care for a grade 3 murmur cost of care is zero as they rarely cause symptoms, suffering or life expectancy.

Care needed for a grade 5 and severe abnormality is thousands more.

I have vet reports to confirm the following costs/compensation:

2.2K spent to date on ear treatments, symptoms of the cardiac issues, blood tests, hormone tests and vaccines the breeder failed to follow through with.

5K cardiac surgery (if all goes well but this is the basic cost which will increase if issues occur as a result of surgery.

600.00 for an ecocardiogram needed 6 weeks after surgery to assess the surgery success.

2k for the bloods and tests needed to investigate why his hormones and clotting issues are current.

£600.00 ear surgery as the infection was so rife the ear washes he is subjected to cannot clean the deep areas of the inner ear the discharge travelled to as it had been untreated.

total = £9,800.00.

That was claim amount but I have also found internet info stating the breeder can be liable for the full cost of care for life if the condition is genetic/breed related. No vet can provide quotes for what 'maybe' - I have asked.

e'g: I asked for costs if things go wrong in  surgery but all sorts could go wrong and they will not comment on a maybe. 

I got the 12 week information from the Justice.gov website but I do not know how to get the link up. 

[Lesley A]

ok - the links I refer to are articles that popped up during my searches to find out my rights so there were multiple channels referred to for seeking help. i will find them out and get the links uploaded. i have noted you want all links uploaded moving forward.

As also stated previously, I have now chosen to seek all advice from this site as my research was conducted prior to knowing about this site/forum. I refer to the Local Authority of the licensed breeder. I informed them as she was licensed and certainly breached the licensing laws so I informed her LA. She has advised them she is working with me and her solicitors - another lie so I have updated her LA in that respect. Even with her LA Inspector now investigating she has the bared faced audacity to lie.

So my total losses to date if I include the refund costs are £3K so it would appear that is all I can sue for.

That leaves me in a pickle. I cannot afford the surgery or tests upfront and was suing the breeder to obtain the necessary funds for his care. Every hiccup he has at the vets is anywhere between £200 - 1600.00 and defers funds away from the surgery and constantly causes financial hardship. I did not realise they court would not consider future losses.

However, I note you say they do not normally consider future losses. Does this mean there is chance they will. 

I was hoping the court would make an order the £5k surgery costs be made payable to the vet so surgery could go ahead.

I am not in a position to pay for the care needed  then make a claim unfortunately.

 

 

 

[Lesley A]

In response to your comments I will say I am fully aware of why I purchased this pup. Please bear in mind, I did not knowingly purchase a genetically sick pup from a known puppy farmer. 

Buying a pup with a grade 3 murmur does not inflict pain or suffering on an animal as a grade 3 murmur can vanish or improve - thus not life impacting if it remains a grade 3 murmur.  I was willing to accept that any potential issues from that grade 3 murmur were my responsibility but that's not what was advertised or purchased. The pup was bred by her so she can fund his chance at life and health in my eyes - she has never been held to account.

I did not encourage a puppy farmer nor purchase a pup as sick as he is. I have had conversations with my vet who promises he will tell me when the pup starts to suffer but the surgery I sue for will give him a normal healthy life with no long term meds or care required for the cardiac issue. I will not let him suffer but I will fight for his chance at a life that was given to him.

However, it could also be argued that those pups on puppy farms are as much in need of rescue, love and care than any other rescue centre pets and that those who purchase them are saints. 

On the note of business, I will ask the judge regarding future losses or the right to return to court for those future losses as you suggest. 

Theres no harm asking the court to make an order for future losses given those future losses are the key to his survival. Money claims have said I can apply for help with the court fee but I take your point that the higher the claim the higher the court fee.

I guess my next question has to be how do I produce a Particulars of Claim. The internet states that a Particulars of Claim should be detailed - as you said my original letter was too detailed, could I use it as a Particulars of Claim or are they best kept as brief as the chronology and compensation break down I provided you with.

[Lesley A]

As requested, I have uploaded the internet link I found stating that breeders are liable for the life time of the dog.

cag jax.pdf

[Lesley A]

Hi Princess999 

I am happy to chat with you, no harm in that.  If it helps get this breeder.  
I am not sure how we make that contact or if my email is allowed up here xxxxxxx

i agree we should be ousting her on this site but I would rather chat to you privately than not at all if you fear her but you should not let her.  

I just had covid and pneumonia so I am behind on my case but starting again today. 
Please do not be scared- she targets targets pups not peeps.

Message me if you prefer but I encourage you to oust here too.   
Maybe a chat mite help you with that but I will do what I can. 
regards 

lesley. 

[Lesley A]

Hi,

I have now followed the above PoC link which took me to a N1 form.

I have attached it but each time I open it the text vanishes. I can upload a word version if this happens on this site.

Is this my PoC, is it good to go now please.

I have had covid and subsequent pneuomonia so apologies for the delay in uploading the doc

 

N1 JAX cag version.pdf

Jax JUDICIAL REMEDY.pdf

[Lesley A]

I guess that’s what I am asking really. 
I am confused by this particulars of claim.  
is what is on the form enough as a PoC or would I have to send the document I posted a few weeks ago that was king and detailed at a later date.  Just the N1 ? 
I called the courts who said that if you work a case yourself you can total the hours spent and charge £19.00 per hour. 
This is confirmed by the Court wingman book of How to manage your own litigation. 
it’s a hard copy book so I cannot upload a link for a ref.  
regards 

lesley 

[Lesley A]

Hi 

Ok I take your comments on board but before I amend the form, Id like to clarify. As I mentioned previously, I have cognitive issues which impacts my ability to structure and you comment of me handing the breeder the win on a plate due to disorganised structure so I just want to be sure what I am doing.

The reason I mentioned things like not seeing the pup with its mom, lack of socialisation, lack of ensuring the pup is accustomed to a domestic setting go towards showing the attitudes of the breeder to her licensing rules hence going to show her true character.

When I reported her to her LA, those were the first questions they asked me as they are strict obligations that form part of her licensing regs. I know these things are not recoverable but if she fails to follow her basic statutory obligations, she is misleading purchasers. 

Do you still think it should be removed when it contributes to showing character?

Yes I have the receipts, reports etc  from Vets - Should I break the vet bill amount down to what dates i spent what instead of the total as a whole?

I can substantiate the fact she has reasonable knowledge when they are forced to disclose documents. The court can enforce that right?

Point taken on the LiP costs being removed for a small claim.

I will attempt to remove the emotion reduce it and make the amendments you have suggested but I just wanted to clarify if I really should be removing facts that show she's breaching licensing conditions. I thought it would be important to show her low level of professionalism because if she cannot honour basic rules of her license, what can she honour?

Yes, multiple agencies have been contacted and I believe I have set the wheels of motion turning with these organisations.

I have yet to contact the police. She is now selling several puppies online as I had contacted Freeads about allowing a puppy farmer to advertise sick animals - as she is now online, I can only presume she cannot advertise with them at the moment whilst they investigate.

[Lesley A]

/assets/static/govuk-opengraph-image-dade2dad5775023b0568381c4c074b86318194edb36d3d68df721eea7deeac4b.png

Dog breeding licensing: statutory guidance for local authorities - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

 

[Lesley A]

Hi.  
mess the last version of the N1 access table to start the process now? 
mid not how do I improve it.  
mic si, what next please.  
Lesley 

[Lesley A]

Apologies for the last message.  
new phone - predictive text.  
Is the last version of the N1 now ok to send. 
if so what next.  
if not how do I improve it please. 
Lesley 

[Lesley A]

Hi. 
I posted another version at approx 14.40. 
It was more succinct and less emotional.  
however paragraphs were not numbered.  
We’d each numbered paragraph represent each day I took the dog to the vets ? 
I answered your question that I had informed the RSPCA.  
 

 

The RSPCA. Say they will follow up.  
they can say when. 
they can share any findings with me. 
I cannot wait until they do - nor could I prove their involvement in court when investigation results cannot be shared with me anyway.  

[Lesley A]

Sir please try and remember and appreciate my cognitive issues.  
I am trying! That remark offers no feedback to what errors I have made or address my question of what goes in each numbered paragraph?  
Does each numbered paragraph represent a new ‘event’ in the series of events between myself and the breeder and vet visits?

Am I telling the story - minus the emotion with a numbered paragraph each time something new cropped up ? 
 

So a numbered paragraph per engagement wether that be with vets or the breeder?
Was the second version still no good ? 

[Lesley A]

Is the following version any better please. IJax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docxt has been done as a word doc until i perfect it.

[Lesley A]

I am aware of the courts potential decisions. My main aim is to recoup my losses. If and when the animal begins to suffer, I will make the necessary decisions then and no one will dictate when I should be doing so. I did not buy a dog for 'cute looks' that cause them pain like a pug etc. I purchased a normal spaniel for temperament and nature.

This forum is priceless and I appreciate the help.

The required surgery is a full fix and cheaper than maintaining him without it given the meds he will need.

A comment about other dogs not being good enough is not necessary. My claim is about this dog.

I have spent a lot of money on this dog, merely finding out what is wrong as it was not declared by the breeder in full. 

I am able to talk and deal with Judges, solicitors or anyone else I need to, at what ever level - I can communicate without issues orally.

Its written work and structuring that I struggle with.

Please can you explain where and how I can improve the document.

What is a cause of action please? Do I need to delete anything or am I adding the cause of action to the document as it stands. 

When my previous copy highlighted how the breeder breached her obligations, you said those issues were not recoverable so not necessary. I explained their presence by showing how it goes to showing her character, professionalism and attitudes to her obligations.

Exactly what do I need to do to make this document correct please and where do I place it. I am not being made aware of exactly what is missing or what needs to be removed etc.

Lesley