NCP PCN's the easy fix?

[barrowboy]

NCP/BW PCN PAPLOC now claimform - New Gatwick Drop Off Zone - I thought I had paid for both visits? - Private Land Parking Enforcement - Consumer Action Group

 

Right this is so simple to kill of as its NCP

First of all if the notice to keeper was issued more then 14 days after the event then you need do nothing else other then the below and NCP Will cancel on first appeal (you will get the cancelation email, normally with NCP its within 14 days for appeal replies)

Pay or appeal a Parking Charge Notice (PCN)

WWW.NCP.CO.UK

Select the correct first two letters

Appeal as the keeper option, 

then simply use this text, add nothing else, and you will get confirmation of ticket cancelation

 

This is an appeal by the keeper. No driver details will be given.   

Notice to keeper is non POFA so no keeper liability due to be issued outside the required 14 days

This is an auto win at POPLA as liability can not be transferred from the driver to the keeper on this occasion

Please cancel or issue a POPLA code where you will auto withdraw on submission of an appeal about NKL (which would you reason code when you don't contest)

 

End. 

 

 

[barrowboy]

  

On 25/11/2021 at 13:46, MoaningCrusader said:

Thanks barrow boy ... The wording in brackets at the end does not seem to make sense? Could you make sure it's correct?

 

I assume legally they cannot transfer liability from keeper to driver after 14days from the incident? If so, then it certainly applies here, as the incident was on the 14th Oct and the Notice to Keeper was sent on 22nd November.

 

Sorry my fault!

you don't need proof of payment to win this case, its irrelevant 

It should have said

Please cancel or issue a POPLA code where you will auto withdraw on submission of an appeal about NKL (which would be your internal reason code when you don't contest)

 

---

The 3 letter code refers to what NCP use as their reason code for not contesting POPLA appeals or cancelling tickets on first appeal

 

[dx100uk]

MC please take CAREFUL note of how many posts members that give you 'advice' here have and how long they have been on the site.

 

we do not recommend you do anything for now please, it could inadvertently harm your position going forwards in many areas.

 

could you please complete this sticky and upload the requested paperwork so we have all the correct info to advise you PROPERLY , then the expert forum members with years of membership and posts will come in and advise, many do not wish to get involved in arguments concerning 'newbie advise that appears to magically make these things go away', so do not post without info.

 

dx

[barrowboy]

I am going to disagree with the advice above

Several "long term" members on here don't believe people should appeal tickets however that advice is simply incorrect and they would rather people face a court claim instead , which is actually very bad advice. Just because someone has been on here for a long time does not mean their advice is correct all of the time and in this case you have been given the correct advice and a winning appeal against an easy to beat parking firm

You have a PCN which does not comply with POFA

NCP like a few other BPA members don't contest appeals when they are challenged  on the issues around no keeper liability

NCP always cancel tickets when shown the above appeal where its after the 14 day period , its just what they do

You harm your "position" by not knocking this on the head and your position is NOT harmed when you appeal as the keeper

 

This will get cancelled with the above text, i put @dx100ukto a challenge.  Use the text i suggest and you pay £50 to a charity if it fails.  If I fail i would do the same.

 

Unfortunately whilst there is some good advice on this forum regarding court cases there is unfortunately quite a few people who don't really know the internal workings of the PPCs and their policies regarding appeals.  

 

Now if this was the likes of VCS/Excel I wouldn't be advising the above

Edited November 25, 2021 by barrowboy

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks for clarifying Barrowboy.

 

I have had a quick scan look through the schedule 4 of the POFA 2012. The conditions don't seem to mention any limited time scale of 14days for the transference of driver to keeper liability. Sorry to ask, but just so I am clear on it, where can I confirm this info about the 14 day condition on the transfer of liability?

[barrowboy]

section 9 - 4 and 5

(4)The notice must be given by—

(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or

(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

 

what in essence transfer of liability from the driver to keeper means is thus

The driver is liable under contract law, unless the driver is not known and the conditions of keeper liability have been met by the parking operator

So where the conditions are met liability is shifted from a unknown driver onto the keeper and the keeper is held liable under POFA 

In this case keeper liability fails because they haven't met the conditions and thus there can be no "transfer of liability" from the driver to the keeper using POFA 

 

In the case of NCP they don't bother taking this to POPLA as they know they would lose 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by dx100uk
unnecessary previous post quote removed

[barrowboy]

So you clearly have a non POFA notice , which is why NCP will cancel as they don't fight cases like this. Now if it was someone like APCOA Parking even with the above appeal they wouldn't cancel on first appeal but then would fold @ POPLA, its just the way certain parking firms

 

Rather then giving a blanket answer to all parking ticket appeals each one should be tailored to how parking firms react.  I mean you wouldn't try the above appeal with any IPC firm as it wouldn't work.

 

  @dx100uk said you shouldn't trust newbie advice etc, but we had a site team person @honeybee13say they had never heard of Norwich Parking Control, yet that particular firm had been around quite a while and the guy behind is very well known in the industry, so it just goes to show being on here for a long time or a short time doesn't make your knowledge /advice any less or more correct

 

Again ill challenge anyone here to £50 to charity that the above appeal will work in this case.

[MoaningCrusader]

I hear you Barrowboy. I'll just hold out to see if there's any further advice I can use.

 

It looks like your approach is going to work.

 

 

[honeybee13]

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what your experience of parking companies is, barrowboy?

 

HB

[barrowboy]

  @honeybee13 Sure until 2 years ago I worked for the British Parking Association in a compliance role. The way the industry works hasnt changed since and until the single appeals service comes in there wont be any major changes.

When the whole new frame work comes in will hopefully see some major improvements and not just a fudge.

 

And i should add the aim should always be the quickest and easiest route to cancelation for the user.  Be that an appeal or complaint to landowner (very effective for the likes of PE)

 

Dont forget that gatwick airport is subject to byelaws so its not relevant land for the purposes of POFA.

Edited November 25, 2021 by barrowboy

[FruitSalad1010]

If Dave sends me a speculative invoice I don't appeal to him. I may in passing tell him to refer to the reply given in Arkell vs Pressdram, or more likely ignore him. I do not validate him or his bogus claim by appealing to some stooge or his mate Clive.

Just because barrowboy was gainfully employed by such an organisation is in no way evidence of their legitimacy and what is more likely happening here is a case of Stockholm syndrome. It can't possibly be that my previous employer has no real basis in law to need to exist.
 

I believe the advice barrowboy has given is the beginnings of an excellent defence should NCP ever be bothered to go to court.

Barrowboy has also broadened the discussion and fully explained their reasoning for their course of action which can only be to the benefit of the original poster and future readers. However you may be understanding that the default stance of CAG is more forthright in its approach for lots of very good and lawful reasons.

Just like all the Ombudsman services the appeals process can and probably should be avoided to fully enjoy ones lawful rights.

[dx100uk]

there is a greater need here...that is not being selfish.

 

appealing and poss wining is just that sorry. it doesn't cost these PPC's anything for it to go off to the old boys club at popla, what DOES cost them money is a court claim they lose!!

 

being selfish does not benefit more people, CAG is about mass entitlement and exposing wrong doings .

 

the more people cost these companies money, the less likely they will continue their extortion.

 

most publicity and most mugs sadly believe these speculative invoices are fines, just look at the media everyday.

education is the way.

 

the greater good is the CAG way.

 

dx

[barrowboy]

The above posters are advocating you wait for a court claim which in reality costs parking firms very little even if they lose (they issue huge numbers). They think by winning in court you will cost a ppc lots of money. Its actually not correct given the sums involved.

 

My advice is to kill the ticket of asap.

Why would you risk a court claim which will take up a lot your time when this appeal will take less then 5 minutes

 

Courts are such a lottery and not worth it.

 

It is your choice at the end of the day.  People on forums are not however going to pay if you lose against the likes of bw legal etc

 

[honeybee13]

My advice is to kill the ticket of asap.

 

So in this case are you suggesting that appealing to the landowner, the airport for the sake of argument, is going to kill it off? We haven't seen that work, possibly with some of the supermarket chains.

 

How do you explain that of the people here who have appealed to the PPC have hardly ever have them allowed and their cases headed off on the court trail anyway?

 

When you were with the BPA compliance department, did it deal with appeals from the public?

 

HB

[FruitSalad1010]

1 hour ago, barrowboy said:

The above posters are advocating you wait for a court claim which in reality costs parking firms very little even if they lose (they issue huge numbers). They think by winning in court you will cost a ppc lots of money. Its actually not correct given the sums involved.

 

My advice is to kill the ticket of asap.

Why would you risk a court claim which will take up a lot your time when this appeal will take less then 5 minutes

 

Courts are such a lottery and not worth it.

 

It is your choice at the end of the day.  People on forums are not however going to pay if you lose against the likes of bw legal etc

 

 

The quote highlighted in bold above is the entire premise upon which the parking industry issues speculative invoices. The business strategy is by and large, not founded on any lawful basis and should be considered an abuse of process, there are good reasons for not enabling such poor business practices or abuse. There is a principle here that goes beyond time and money and while I cannot speak for the founders of this site, that is generally the modus operandi of the people who give suggestion.

Barrowboy comes across as if they may still actually work for the parking industry and if they do and haven't disclosed this then what they are suggesting is not entirely impartial.

 

A review of the repeated and continued success of parking companies being defeated in Court by posters on this forum speaks to the fact Court is not necessarily the lottery you suggest. In fact there is a more plausible argument that the Court offers more possibilities to defend bogus speculative invoices, if it works in appeal it will work in Court, if it doesn't work in appeal it may still work in Court.

I don't think this should devolve any further in order that this thread can remain focussed on helping the original poster so will not comment further except on that basis, clearly people will have questions given your extensive industry experience and it may benefit future readers to answer those queries as openly and fully as possible.

Edited November 26, 2021 by FruitSalad1010

[barrowboy]

 

@honeybee13In this case i am suggesting they appeal to NCP because NCP know they will lose this at POPLA and so don't waste their time

 

A lot of parking  companies will just reject appeals, but the are some and when i say some 99.9% are BPA members who will cancel tickets if they don't comply with POFA, some will only concede at POPLA as that's how their business is set 

Where as it would never work with IPC companies.  Although there are certain cases that can be worn at the IAs (few and far between)

 

I would suggest that the number of cases seen here are far lower then the likes of MSE

Appeals on POFA issues have always worked against the likes of CP PLUS, and smart parking.

 

Smart Parking for example can be won at POPLA by appealing on landowner contract issues only as the Smart Parking don't use that name on their contracts with landowners 

BPA don't deal with appeals as such.

My role was dealing with issues around signs and paperwork compliance etc(although that's a very simplistic view of it)

 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by dx100uk
unnecessary previous post quote removed

[honeybee13]

Moaning Crusader, I hope you've found the discussion with barrowboy enlightening.

 

In order not to take this thread off topic, I've started a discussion thread on PPC appeals which can be found here. This thread will now revert to your parking issues.

 

HB

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

17 hours ago, barrowboy said:

Dont forget that gatwick airport is subject to byelaws so its not relevant land for the purposes of POFA.

Does this mean that your appeal approach won't work in my case? 

 

I am not actually dealing with the airport, but NCP? However, with Gatwick being the landowner will the bylaws ultimately be enforced making my appeal null and void?

 

 

[barrowboy]

@MoaningCrusaderNo my appeal approach will work 100% in this case (hence why no one has or will take me up on my £50 charity challenge)

What I mean by my statement is that POFA has no relevance on airport land (or any land where there are byelaws, so ferry and sea ports/airports and other obscure places. 

No POFA = no keeper liability 

So yes the above appeal text will win with no issue 

sorry for confusing you,

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by barrowboy

[MoaningCrusader]

Sorry, just to make sure... Surely if there is no POFA jurisdiction on airport land, then therefore its schedule 4 protections will not be relevant to my appeal? Technically airports and ports are outside the law in this case, are they not?

 

No POFA = No protection 

[barrowboy]

4 minutes ago, MoaningCrusader said:

Sorry, just to make sure... Surely if there is no POFA jurisdiction on airport land, then therefore its schedule 4 protections will not be relevant to my appeal? Technically airports and ports are outside the law in this case, are they not?

 

No POFA = No protection 

No you are reading this wrong, the parking firm simply cant hold you liable under keeper liability

You are appealing as the keeper and therefore you will win

It really is that simple, nothing else is relevant.

[honeybee13]

Hi, MC.

 

As BB is new here and his advice is as yet unproven, I think it would be a good idea to wait and see what the forum regulars think, please.

 

I'm sorry you haven't had any comments about the forum sticky, I'll make sure that's addressed.

 

HB

 

 

[barrowboy]

3 hours ago, MoaningCrusader said:

HB I have. I have yet to receive any other advice to my sticky that filled out?

 

I don't think I have defence in regards to my thinking I had paid my parking sessions online, but clearly the payments did not process. Despite my honest attempt to find out what happened to my payments, NCP did not allow me to get to the bottom of it. Is there any point in pursuing this appeal?

 

Yes Since this is not relevant to the appeal.

Your appealing on keeper liability alone therefore you will win hands down, its really very simply.  Take the idea about payment out of your head but thats no relevant to this type of appeal and does not come in to play

its a straight forward case which you will, 

Your defence does NOT involve any issue of payment

 

There was an appeal done using my text on a Group Nexus Case and Group nexus will be cancelling their ticket within the next week, so when this comes back as ticket cancelled i think this will hopefully prove the doubters wrong, you have 28 days from the date of notice issue to appeal anyway

[honeybee13]

You've made your point, BB. Several times.

 

Perhaps we could let other people comment now?

 

HB

[barrowboy]

This is the case where the user has used the text i suggest on no keeper liability, they should hear from Group Nexus by the next weekend and you will see that it works, i also have two CP PLUS ones in the pipeline which i will screenshot when they come through

Id love someone to take up my £50 charity challenge