WWW.MOUNTBATTENCARSALES.CO.UK/Close Brothers - Faulty car

[BankFodder]

Whether it is simply a loan or hire purchase, you are protected and and if the dealer will not respect their obligations then the finance company can be made to do so instead.

 

There is absolutely no need for you to spend any of your own money on a car which has been bought through some kind of finance this early on in your ownership

 

 

Start off by telling us the name of the dealer and then also find out whether you have simply had a loan or whether you have purchased the vehicle on hire purchase.

 

Also tell us something about the vehicle. Age, mileage, amount paid.

 

Also tell us what has gone wrong and what you have paid to have it repaired and what other things are still outstanding to be done

 

[BankFodder]

Firstly you should understand that the finance company are completely liable.

 

Close brothers have a difficult reputation and so you will need to be aggressive about it and persistent.

One complication is that you have already spent money on repairs without referring to the finance company.

They will try to use this as a basis for refusing to reimburse you the money which you have paid out so far.

You may not get all of your money back but you should get some of it.

 

It would be helpful if you could give a tabulated list of defects which you have addressed so far and including the amount of money spent for each one.

 

And then a separate tabulated list outlining the defects remaining and what the likely cost of addressing those is going to be.

 

You will probably have to commission a report about the condition of the car. That will incur a fee which you will have to pay but you should eventually be reimbursed by the finance company.

 

As well as posting the list of defects and expenses here you should write to the finance company immediately and put them on notice that the car has suffered a number of serious defects.

 

Explain to the finance company that because you did not know your rights you have spent some of your own money repairing the defects but there are still many defects remaining.

 

You are now putting the finance company on notice that you will be looking to them for reimbursement of the money laid out so far and also for them to to take over their obligations in respect of the outstanding defects.

 

Tell them that they are welcome to arrange an inspection of the vehicle if they want.

 

Post a draft of the letter here

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

First of all the costings which you have given are not in what I would call a tabulated form.

We really like it listed out please so that we don't have to try and work it out as we go through.

You will have to do this anyway if it goes to court or even if you go to the ombudsman. You might as well do it now. I suggest do it in a spreadsheet or at least in a spreadsheet format.

Secondly, you came here and asked to help and you have then gone ahead and started messaging the finance company of your own bat. This is not a good idea.
If you want to go it alone then fair enough but there is no point in asking us for help.

Asking the finance company – "what they can do to help" is scarcely assertive and you become the supplicant. I think you better start dealing with your mindset if you are going to take them on.
Once again as I suggested earlier please draft a letter to them and post it here and my strong advice is to refer here before you make any contacts or you respond to any messages from them.

Have you got any written assessments or written quotations for the work you have had carried out?
Have you had any written quotations or any written assessments for the existing faults?

I have to differ slightly from the advice given by my site team colleague above. I'm afraid that you don't have an automatic right of return of this vehicle because you are beyond the six months during which you were obliged to give them at least one opportunity to repair the vehicle before rejecting it.
Although the defects may well have manifested themselves in the first six months, and although you may well have brought it to the attention of the finance company within the first six months, you haven't actually asserted your rights under the Consumer Rights Act.

We now have to deal with this is if it is a straight ordinary contract and we have to decide whether the contract has been breach to the extent that you have been deprived of effectively the entire value of the contract or whether in fact the defects/the breaches can be remedied and that that will be a sufficient solution.

 

[BankFodder]

Ok, not really what we want but still ......

 

But you haven't told us what work of your list has actually been carried out and which has yet to be carried out.

You seem to be suggesting that some work has been done but not yet paid for. You need to explain.

It would be helpful if you could simply laid all out and so we didn't have to cross-examine you.

Also have you started preparing your letter to the finance company?

 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

There seems to be some duplication because you referred to a new clutch and also to head gasket and cylinder but then also to a new engine.

 

Although the clutch may not be included in the engine the head gasket / cylinder certainly is.

You need to explain to us what is happening here.

[BankFodder]

Stand by for a reply tomorrow

What made you think that the faulty clutch was not yet sufficiently worn out to need replacing?

[BankFodder]

11 hours ago, BankFodder said:

 

What made you think that the faulty clutch was not yet sufficiently worn out to need replacing?

Please respond to this.

 

I am assuming that your repairers are not the same as your supplier

[BankFodder]

Please have a look at this.

Is it correct and does it represent the situation correctly?

 

  

Quote

As you know,  on 30^th April 2022 I bought a car (....) from Mountbatten dealership, with your hire purchase agreement  no.......

I paid £XXX for the car.

 

The car has demonstrated a series of serious faults and it is clearly not a satisfactory quality given its age, price mileage and general condition.

Within the first 5 months it was found to have a faulty clutch and oil leak, which I informed the dealership about.

The dealership refused to accept any responsibility and told me that it had nothing to do with them and that the responsibility lay with yourselves.

The clutch has not yet been repaired but I have been told that the work required will cost about £1,588.

I am including a copy of the quotation with this letter.

Soon afterwards, the differential unit failed and had to be replaced in order to keep the vehicle on the road.

As I was not fully aware of my rights and that the liability lay with you as the hire purchase company, I paid for the work myself and incurred an expense of £1148.10.

 

I am enclosing a copy of the worksheet and the bill with this letter.

 

The car has now started to overheat and recently had to be towed back to my home.

 

A mechanical inspection her diagnosed that the radiator is leaking and that there may also be a problem with the cylinder head gasket.

The true cause we’ll have to be ascertained by means of an internal inspection of the engine.

 

I have been told that the inspection and the necessary work could cost as much as £2,000.

 

Having spoken to an advisor, I now understand as the provider of the hire purchase for the vehicle used in fact have the responsibility to address all of these issues even the ones which have already been dealt with by me.

 

At present the vehicle is undriveable and so it is off the road. This is having a serious impact on my life as I rely heavily on the car or my daily transport.

 

I am writing to advise you that in my view the vehicle which has been sold to me is unfit for its purpose to the extent that I am entitled to treat the contract has repudiated by the dealer and by yourselves.

 

I accept that I have probably complicated the issue by having proceeded to have certain repairs carried out without reference to you but the defects which have not been dealt with by me are clear.

 

I expect that you will wish to carry out your own examination of the vehicle before you agree that it should be returned to the dealer and that I should be reimbursed for the purchase price and for any outlays incurred by me so far.

 

Please will you let me know what arrangements you intend to put in place to implement that inspection and and whether the inspection should be carried out at my home address where the vehicle is now situated or whether you intend to arrange to have it transported to a garage in order to have an inspection carried out here.

 

As you can imagine, this matter now needs to be dealt with quickly because I am in a position where I do not have vehicle and this is something that cannot continue you very much longer

 

[BankFodder]

A couple more questions:

Have you approached the dealer any of these rooms? And what was a response?

Have you approached the finance company at all?

[BankFodder]

check the edit in red.  Is it correct that the vehicle is at your home?  Off-road on on road?

[BankFodder]

OK.

Double check the letter and then send it by email and recorded delivery

[BankFodder]

That's my dictation software.... sorry!

[BankFodder]

I don't think you are justified in cancelling payments at the moment but you should be aware that even if it comes to a point where you might be justified, as soon as you do start cancelling payments the finance company will default you and smash up your credit file and it was simply add another problem to the pile of difficulties which you are already facing.

I'm afraid that it will be better for the moment to keep on paying. It's quite early to have expected a response from the finance company. You only sent your message on Wednesday. I think that I would allow until next Friday.

Also, I'm sorry to say that you shouldn't expect this to be resolved very quickly. You could easily be looking at several months and maybe as long as a year.

 

[BankFodder]

I don't think we can advise you as to what you should do about another car. As a decision that you must make. However if you do decide, you should certainly do it on finance because that is how you manage to secure your protections in the event that you have more problems.

You certainly won't know what is happening by next week, or by next month. You can probably expect that if everybody is uncooperative that you will have issued a claimant by next month and as I've already suggested, you are probably looking at at least six months unless the finance company put their hands up.

It is entirely possible that if you issue a claim, then the finance company will realise that they are dealing with a persistent and aggressive customer and they will then cut their losses although there will be an argument about the money you have already laid out.

It will be very important not to show any sign of lack of confidence or weakness on your part

[BankFodder]

I think that you will have to arrange an independent inspection of the vehicle.

 

You will need a report.

This will probably incur a fee and you will claim this back.

 

Also, the inspection may well be carried out by a garage which will want to remove the vehicle to their premises.

That also will incur a fee and then afterwards the vehicle will have to be returned to you.

 

I'm afraid that you will have to undertake this outlay but you will be reimbursed.

 

If you are prepared to do this then you should send a warning note to the finance company.

Quote

Dear sir/madam,

 

You have failed to respond appropriately to my messages concerning the defects in the vehicle which you have supplied to me under a hire purchase agreement reference number x x x.

 

I am now seeking an independent inspection of the vehicle to obtain a report as a precursor to bringing an action against you for full reimbursement of the cost of the vehicle and also expenses incurred in trying to address some of the problems.

 

I am writing you this letter simply to put you on notice.

The cost of this inspection will be added to the amount which I will be claiming from you in the court.

Yours faithfully 

 

[BankFodder]

Yes. If you can get to report from them then that will be extremely useful. Maybe you could also get a quote for the work needs to be done.

 

Have you sent the letter which I suggested to the finance company yet?

[BankFodder]

This post is rather long and maybe rambling and a bit technical that I suddenly had a moment of clarity in respect of what the consumer rights act is trying to do and I thought I'd better set out here because it is highly relevant to the thread – and it is very relevant you any other threads on this forum relating to the sale of cars and other items which have been bought and sold.


I think there has been a level of misunderstanding of the consumer rights act is doing and also its relationship with general contract law
I've only just realised this myself but things are much clearer now.

Overall, the consumer rights act confirms that you are entitled expect certain benefits from any contract for goods.
Maybe this is that you are entitled to expect that anything you buy will be of satisfactory quality and will remain satisfactory for a reasonable period of time.
"Reasonable period of time" is the amount of time that a reasonable consumer would expect that particular item to last given the type of item, the price paid, and any claims made about it by the seller.
"Satisfactory quality" means the condition of any item which would be expected by reasonable consumer given the type, price, claims et cetera blah blah.

You're right to enjoy an item of satisfactory quality can be dual as long as a piece of string. If you bought a new car that you would certainly expect to last for a good six years without any defects manifest themselves – wear and tear excepted.

If you pay £10,000 for a car which has only 50,000 miles or so on the clock that by and large I would have thought that you could expected to last at least three or four years without manifesting any particular defects – other than wear and tear.
All this is predicated of course on the assumption that the car is well maintained and serviced et cetera. In other words the consumer also has responsibilities towards the car.

Where a vehicle starts to manifest defects during the period of "reasonable expectation", then there is really no need to show that defects will already there when the vehicles bought. You simply expect it not to manifest any defects without reasonable period of time – and if it does, then it becomes the liability of the seller.
The seller can only defend themselves by showing there was no defect, or that the car was not properly maintained or it was subject to abuse, for that the defect manifest itself after the "reasonable period of time" is expired.
I find that pretty good test for "– reasonable period of time" or for "satisfactory quality" is to ask whether if the dealer at the time the car advertised it –

Quote

"only £10,000 but you may have to spend £1000 or more during the first year of ownership in order to carry out certain repairs…"

Whether anybody would buy the car.
I'm quite sure that the answer is definitely – No.

I think the same test is good for TVs, washing machines, computers – every item that you can imagine which might be for sale be it new or be it second-hand.

 

This is the basis of the consumer rights act 2015. It was the basis of the sale of goods act 1979 and it was the basis of the sale of goods act 1893 – and in fact it basically reflects the rules of contract law relating to the sales of goods.

 

So the consumer rights act basically this confirms what has been in place for well over 100 years.
This means that you enjoy your rights regardless of the six-month rule and if you can simply show that the car is clearly not of satisfactory quality then you have a perfect claim against the seller.
The remedy available depends on the nature of the defect. If the defect is relatively minor then you would simply be entitled to damages which would amount to the cost of making good the defect so that the car becomes of "satisfactory quality".

However, if the defect is a major defect so that it can be said that you have been deprived of the entire purpose of the contract, then that defect is known as a "fundamental breach". A fundamental breach means that the seller has destroyed the contract and you are entitled to treat it as terminated after which you are released from all obligations.

The consumer rights act also tried to introduce some statutory remedies which were intended to introduce certain rights where defects became apparent within a fairly short time of ownership.
So if a defect appears within 30 days, then you are entitled to reject the car out of hand. If a defect occurs within six months then the seller has the right to attempt a single repair and if that fails, then you are entitled to reject the car out of hand.

However, the six-month provisions that replace the basic law relating to satisfactory quality and fundamental breach.

The right to reject rules in the consumer rights act were meant to be helpful but in fact we are finding that they are simply muddying the waters. Dealers don't seem to understand them and they are simply producing traditional confusion to all parties – including Me.

So the bottom line here is that you don't need to show that defect was present at the time or the car. You simply need to show that the is not of satisfactory quality and you also need to show that the problem in question is not mine and it is fundamental.

Your car is off the road because it assesses the effective. There is no doubt in my mind that you have been deprived of the entire purpose of the contract.
It is a fundamental breach of contract. It is clear by any measure that this car has not been satisfactory quality for a reasonable period of time.

You don't need to worry about whether a defect was there at the outset. You are entitled to get your money's worth for your £10,000 and very clearly you didn't.


 

[BankFodder]

The report is essential.  But once you get that then I suggest that you move to a letter of claim very quickly.

Let them have the report and if nothing after 5 days, then the letter of claim.

 

Disregard their 8 week deadline - that is an industry trick intended to give them control of the timescale and to make you think that you have no other rights.

 

When is the report due?

[BankFodder]

It's probably me because I haven't fully looked at the thread again.

 

Have you posted up the quotes and reports that you have received so far?

If not then please could you do that.

 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

You need to post them as PDF files. A single combined file

And looking up a few posts where you were produced an email from them including a list of things that they required, it is clear to me that you were meant to be doing the report and this is what I would expect anyway.

 

It is better that you do reports and supply documentation because it keeps you in control. Otherwise you will find yourself hanging around for reports carried out by them and you may not even get sight of the report.

 

[BankFodder]

A report might be a formal document and possibly without the quotation on.

If you have corroborating quotes from Independent sources then that will be fine I expect.

 

Let's have a look this afternoon and see if we can put it together and tell the finance company that they have had sufficient information and they had better pull their finger out

 

 

[BankFodder]

Please post up the documents that you have so far.

Get a quotation for the report that you have been offered but don't put it in hand yet.

Stand by for a reply later on

 

[BankFodder]

These are not quite what is required.

 

They describe the work that would be carried out but they don't describe the symptoms and the problem.

 

These quotes at least need to say that they found xxx which they put down to xxx and the following work is needed to address those defects.

 

 

[BankFodder]

Please don't send anything to the finance company until you check it out with us. We will need to draft a letter.

Once you have got the modified quotation or the report then come back here

[BankFodder]

I'm suggesting this letter as a rough draft.

Please check it and amend it as necessary and post the amended copy up here. We will finalise it once you have received the report.

If they don't comply within seven days then we will draft a letter of claim and you will start the action 15 days later. You had better assume that you will be bringing the action

We need to know exactly how much you have spent. Although the value of the agreement is more than £10,000 if we sue for that amount then this will take you out of the small claims process and that could be dangerous in terms of costs.
We need to know exactly what your outlay is so far in terms of high purchase repayments and any other expenses.

We would also like to know how much you have paid on insurance and any other reasonably incurred expenses in relation to the vehicle ownership and its use.

You need to start getting this ready quite quickly so that we can get a very good idea of what your claim will look like and how much you are claiming

 

Quote

Dear Sir/Mdm

Reference number XXX

I am enclosing the reports and quotations for work to the vehicle which you have sold to me on hire purchase.

The vehicle is currently off the road because it is under driveable because of the defects. I have already made you aware of this but you seem to be either unresponsive or uncooperative.

It is very clear from the attached documents and also from the fact that the vehicle is under driveable that it is not of satisfactory quality to the extent that there is a fundamental breach of contract by you which has effectively deprived me of the entire benefit of contract.

I require you to make the regions arrangements to remove the vehicle because it is occupying space in my driveway. The car has already been there for some weeks and are not prepared to tolerate this any further.
I'm giving you notice that if you have not removed the court within seven days then I shall start charging you storage at a rate of £10 per day and I will recover this money from you by legal action if necessary.

I also require you to make immediate arrangements to repay to me all the money has been paid to you so that we are set at zero.

I understand that you consider that you have a wish to make a decision. I'm telling you now that I'm not prepared to abide by your timescale is and I shall be taking my own action if I do not have a satisfactory response and also the vehicle remove my premises within seven days from the date of this letter.

Yours faithfully