Liverpool PCN not paid - now Charge Certificate for Company Van of Company no longer trading anymore

[Ftgab19]

Hi everyone 

Im not sure what to do with this charge.

 

I set up a company last November 2021 to do courier work.

 

I rented a van though the company but gave it back in May after the work dried up

 

I haven’t told HMRC yet that I stopped trading because I thought you just wait until the company gets kicked off company house.

 

The company didn’t make a profit in its 5 months of trading, didn’t think I needed to fill anything out. A

 

the company I rented the van off sent me a letter saying the van got a parking ticket. I didn’t do anything because the company hasn’t any money left and isn’t trading

 

. I’ve now been sent a charging certificate from the council.

 

Do I just tell the council the company isn’t trading anymore or do I need to tell company house to take me off or something? 
 

Any help would be much appreciated 
 

Andrew 

2020-08-09 liverpool charge certificate.pdf

[dx100uk]

you needed to pay the PCN you were/are responsible for it.

what makes you think you are not, is the PCN valid?

 

dx

 

[Ftgab19]

I didn’t know about the pcn until a month after I gave the van back. The van was rented under the limited company name I set up. The work dried up in May and it’s not traded since.
 

I’ve not closed the company down yet because I don’t know how to. I thought you just waited until it got kicked off company house since it didn’t even make any profit to pay any tax.

Theres no money in the company bank account as I was putting money in to try and keep it going but when the work stopped I give up and stopped renting the van. I let go the guy I had working for the company and about a month or two later I got the pcn in the post. 

 

[dx100uk]

if you can prove you were not the renter of the van at the time of the PCN you need to tell them this then.

 

dx

 

[Ftgab19]

No I was the renter at the time of the pcn but the van was rented to the company which doesn’t have any money and hasn’t traded since May this year 

[dx100uk]

so what?
still needs paying unless there is a reason the contravention code is wrong or something else.

 

you could try stating you did not receive the original PCN after, i will assume, the hire company then returned it filled out with your trading details to the council. they should have sent a new PCN to that address giving a new time period to pay the reduced sum. but if you couldn't/wouldn't have paid it anyway....

 

on the 16th may they issued the PCN

on the 1st july they issued a notice to owner.

 

dx

 

[Ftgab19]

Right I’ve messed up royally then

 

I thought since it was rented in the companies name is was the company liability not mine.

 

What’s the point of a limited company if any debt incurred by the company still becomes your own liability if the company can’t pay? 
 

That’s the only reason I didn’t pay when I got the notice because I didn’t no I was liable to pay. 
 

You said the council should have reset the timeline to pay the reduced amount when they located me.

 

Should I write to them asking to pay the reduced sum since I wasn’t given the new timeline?

 

I only didn't pay because I was under the false impression I wasn’t the one to pay the sum.  

 

I’m a complete novice to how companies work so I didn’t purposely miss the deadline

[dx100uk]

Depends if you were a sole trader or a limited company .

 

You could well be liable, same as any company debts, it's not quite as simple as walking away from everything when it folds and say not me mate 

 

Dx

[Ftgab19]

Hi Dx

 

It’s a limited company I was told to set it up that way for a bit of protection because it was courier work. Should I write a letter explaining why I’ve waited this long not thinking I needed to pay or does the debt die with the company? 
 

Thanks

Andrew 

 

 

[dx100uk]

not it does not die with the company AFAIK.

as you've not officially declared the company insolvent etc etc

 

read this for what is actually going on here...

 

A highway authority (usually the local authority) has the power to levy an excess charge if the parking place is covered by a Traffic Regulation Order under the 84 act. This is not a fine no matter when it is paid to the highway authority.

 

If the driver does not pay within the specified time then the highway authority has the power to start legal criminal proceedings. Only if the court imposes a fine does the payment stop being a charge.

 

A lot of highway authorities don't bother to take it to court because there's nothing in it for them. When a fine is imposed the cash goes to the court service not the highway authority.

 

IMHO if you company did not get a copy of the actually PCN,,,,, just the excess charge notice being the 1st your company knew of the parking offence you MIGHT be able to use a PE3. this should reset the PCN to its original sum, but then you MUST pay that sum.

 

 

[Ftgab19]

Hi dx 

 

So do I get the company declared insolvent as this is the only debt the company has and the company has no money in its bank account.
 

Or do I use the PE3 because I’ve had nothing in the post besides this. I don’t no if the letters from the rental company have got lost or something but this to my knowledge is all I’ve had in the post. And if I need to use the PE3 it says it goes to the court and needs to be signed by someone from the court. Do I wait to see if they bother taking it to court? Because with what you said it doesn’t sound like they would bother taking it to court. 
 

Thanks 

Andrew 

[dx100uk]

nothing to do with the rental company!

they by law would have filled the PCN in with your details as the renter at the time and sent it back 

the issuing council should then have sent you the PCN with revised settlement dates.

 

why not go ring liverpool TOC and ask what to do?

 

dx

 

[Manxman in exile]

On 29/08/2022 at 23:46, dx100uk said:

...A highway authority (usually the local authority) has the power to levy an excess charge if the parking place is covered by a Traffic Regulation Order under the 84 act. This is not a fine no matter when it is paid to the highway authority.

 

If the driver does not pay within the specified time then the highway authority has the power to start legal criminal proceedings. Only if the court imposes a fine does the payment stop being a charge...

 

 

 

I'm not familiar with Liverpool City Council parking so I'm probably wrong, but is this clearly an Excess Charge Notice as opposed to a common or garden PCN?  The council won't have any power to initiate criminal proceedings if it's not paid, will they?

 

And if the limited company which hired the van has no money or other assets, can the council still pursue the OP?  Can they do so because it's an Excess Charge Notice?

Edited September 2, 2022 by Manxman in exile

[dx100uk]

The ECN has clearly been issued as a result of a unpaid PCN. See the pdf in post 1.

 

On 29/08/2022 at 23:46, dx100uk said:

not it does not die with the company AFAIK.

as you've not officially declared the company insolvent etc etc

 

read this for what is actually going on here...

 

A highway authority (usually the local authority) has the power to levy an excess charge if the parking place is covered by a Traffic Regulation Order under the 84 act. This is not a fine no matter when it is paid to the highway authority.

 

If the driver does not pay within the specified time then the highway authority has the power to start legal criminal proceedings. Only if the court imposes a fine does the payment stop being a charge.

 

A lot of highway authorities don't bother to take it to court because there's nothing in it for them. When a fine is imposed the cash goes to the court service not the highway authority.

 

IMHO if you company did not get a copy of the actually PCN,,,,, just the excess charge notice being the 1st your company knew of the parking offence you MIGHT be able to use a PE3. this should reset the PCN to its original sum, but then you MUST pay that sum.

 

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

But does that pdf show an Excess Charge Notice as opposed to a Charge Certificate which has been issued because of non-payment of a PCN?

 

(As I said, I'm probably wrong, but I thought the two were entirely different things.  I thought that council PCNs related to de-criminalised parking offences and remained purely civil matters, and that Excess Charge Notices were entirely separate from PCNs and related to parking offences that were still criminal matters.  An example might be the ECNs issued for parking infringements in places like the Royal Parks in London and which if unpaid could end up in a magistrates court.  The pdf seems to refer to a PCN being unpaid rather than an ECN being unpaid.  Or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick?)

Edited September 2, 2022 by Manxman in exile

[dx100uk]

ECNS are under the RTRA 1984 - just as you quoted. Not under decriminalised Parking.

 

Hard to fight and if you fight it it goes to court.

most people pay these unless there is something glaringly wrong with signs, lines traffic order etc. that they feel confident using in court.

 

Some councils do not run decriminalised parking and use the RTF Act 1984.

 

It is not a fine or a penalty; They can chase this via County Court as a civil debt.

 

You're best off just writing a polite letter to the council explaining the circumstances.

 

[dx100uk]

on charge certificates

you can appeal.

because

you did not receive the PCN within 28days. (or not at all!)

 

see here

Charge Certificates and Orders for Recovery - Traffic Penalty Tribunal

WWW.TRAFFICPENALTYTRIBUNAL.GOV.UK

---

Charge Certificates and Orders for Recovery Charge Certificates and Orders for Recovery If a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) remains unpaid or is ignored...

which leads too:

 

Appeal against a penalty charge notice: If you get a court order - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

---

How to appeal against a parking ticket, bus lane fine or other penalty charge notice (PCN) - and what happens if you get a charge certificate or order of...

 

which is full circle back to what i posted earlier.

 

dx 

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

I'm not the OP.  (You seem to have replied to me as if I am... )

 

I am a bit confused though...

 

In #10 you said:

 

"... read this for what is actually going on here...

 

A highway authority (usually the local authority) has the power to levy an excess charge if the parking place is covered by a Traffic Regulation Order under the 84 act. This is not a fine no matter when it is paid to the highway authority.

 

If the driver does not pay within the specified time then the highway authority has the power to start legal criminal proceedings. Only if the court imposes a fine does the payment stop being a charge... "

 

I took that to mean that you were suggesting to the OP that in his case the City Council had the power under the 1984 Act to start criminal proceedings against him in respect of this unpaid PCN.  (If you didn't mean to suggest that I'm not sure why you would have posted it... )

 

Despite what you said in #14 the Charge Certificate clearly relates to an unpaid PCN and not an ECN, so I'm (1) somewhat dubious that this is an ECN and (2) I doubt there could ever be any criminal sanction for the OP.  Or am I mistaken?

 

Also, is it still the view that the OP is personally liable for this PCN even if the vehicle was rented in the name of a limited company?  (I presume the lease company must have transferred liability to the OP's limited company)

 

13 minutes ago, dx100uk said:

on charge certificates

you can appeal.

because

you did not receive the PCN within 28days. (or not at all!)

 

see here

Charge Certificates and Orders for Recovery - Traffic Penalty Tribunal

WWW.TRAFFICPENALTYTRIBUNAL.GOV.UK

---

Charge Certificates and Orders for Recovery Charge Certificates and Orders for Recovery If a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) remains unpaid or is ignored...

which leads too:

 

Appeal against a penalty charge notice: If you get a court order - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

---

How to appeal against a parking ticket, bus lane fine or other penalty charge notice (PCN) - and what happens if you get a charge certificate or order of...

 

which is full circle back to what i posted earlier.

 

dx 

 

 

 

Well that seems like a better approach.

 

Good job I asked the question.

[dx100uk]

Earlier info was posted on the assumption the letter was an ecn, it wasnt it's a CN as a result of an unpaid PCN.

the op didnt post up the letter till latter in the thread though its now in post 1 and the thread title was latterly updated.

 

he didnt get the PCN , for whatever reason.

the appeal forms should work in resetting things.

 

now if he is legally liable in relation to it, being a limited Company etc etc is another matter.

but as the OP has not legally informed as they should the correct authorities etc of the fact it folded ..... me thinks thats a dead duck.

the original offence occurred whilst the van WAS hired to his company.

 

 

[Ftgab19]

Hi everyone 

 

I’m going to be honest I completely forgot about this with having so much going on. We’ve been given a section 21 notice so going though a move very soon and I’ve had to find other work with the company in question on this charge folding and going bust. 
 

I never received the PCN and I’ve only got in the post the TE3 form today. It says I had until the 15/12/2022 to pay or respond but I’m guessing with the post strikes it got last with it being over a month late. 
 

I don’t know what to do because the company is nearly struck off from company house with it having its first GAZETTE NOTICE. 03/01/2023. And it’s only address is my current address that I’ll possibly be moving out from in early Feb. It doesn’t have my name on the form and only uses the old company name which won’t exist on the 03/03/2023.

 

Any help would be much appreciated 

 

Thanks 

Andrew 

 

[FTMDave]

Open.

[dx100uk]

threads merged.

 

i told you last august to send PE2/3 why did you not do it then??

[Ftgab19]

Hi Dx 

 

I’m sorry I completely got court up in changing jobs and now with the move I completely forgot about it until I got the form in the post yesterday. 
 

Should I contact the court and ask for more time to respond since it clearly arrived a month later. 

[dx100uk]

It's nothing to do with any court??

 

Get is done

[Ftgab19]

Hi Dx 

 

Sorry I’m not sure what you mean it says the TE3 form is from the Liverpool city council but it says court registration fee of £9 so I thought it was in the court. 
 

Who should I contact and should be still be doing the PE2/3 or explain I’ve been sent the TE3 form a month later then it’s dated