I bought a stolen car from a dealer. I was stopped by the police. Need advice. *** Refund by Dealer***

[FabledFabia]

Hi, 

 

On 7th July 2022 I went to Shefford to Test drive a Nissan Qashqai. https://www.jpautomotivebedford.co.uk/used-cars/nissan-qashqai-1-5-dci-acenta-2wd-euro-5-5dr-shefford-202204184768440/. After test driving the car, I did some checks on my phone to see MOT history and to check if the car was stolen, also checked the dealers reviews and history on autotrader, all came back clear. I paid the dealer £500 deposit via debit card (he didn't accept credit card payments). The Qashqai's radio was damaged (audio worked, but the radio screen did not turn on). Dealer agreed to fit in a new radio, I was to collect the car the this week on Wednesday. 

 

The next day 8th July 2022, I told the dealer I would get the car radio replaced myself, if he knocked £200 off the asking price, I also agreed to part exchange my skoda fabia (failed MOT) for £250. 

 

Saturday 9th July I collected the car from the dealer and exchanged documentation. I also paid the remainder of the balance and left my part exchanged skoda with him. I got apple car play fitted in for around £550.

 

Sunday 10th July, on the way to Tesco my wife and I were stopped by Warwickshire police. 2 hours later the police said the vehicle was reported to Lincolnshire police as a stolen vehicle. Apparently, Person 'X' bought the car from Dealer 'A' with a stolen credit card, person X then sold the car onto JP Auto Bedford. They advised me to return the car to the dealership I bought it from. They also gave me an s66 notice (attached). 

 

I emailed the notice to the dealer, I then called him and asked for a refund, the dealer said he will speak with his local police to try to get to the bottom of the issue. 

 

I drove the Qashqai to the dealer's garage, whilst I was with the dealer I tried ringing both Warwickshire police and Lincolnshire police, wasn't able to get through to anyone, "Your call will be answered in 47 minutes time". I have the number of the officer in charge of the case, but it kept going to voicemail.

 

The dealer says he paid for the car, and he showed me the ID of the seller on his phone. After some discussion, we came to an agreement: he gave me back my skoda fabia (with all relevant documentation, keys , e.t.c), I left the qashqai with him.

 

Between now and Thursday, the dealer will try and get in touch with the police, to find out exactly what's happening. If he's able to resolve the issues with the police and give me written confirmation that the issues are resolved, he will drive the Qashqai to my home. If he's unable to resolve the issues with the police, he will give me a refund.

 

I wanted written confirmation but there was no pen at hand, so he sent me a text message

 

"Hi FabledFabia thank you for bringing the Nissan back. I do apologies for what is going on. Please allow me 2 days from today to fix this issue with the police. If they say there is no more issue I will bring the car to you. If they say there will be an issue I will refund you your money back."

 

Ideally I would have preferred some kind of written agreement (not sure how legally binding text messages are), but so far the dealer does seem to be acting in good faith so I don't want to get hostile / unreasonable.

 

If the dealer does not give me a refund on Thursday (e.g. says "police investigations are ongoing" or "I need more time") what can I do to recover my money? Chargeback or small claims?

My wife is pregnant and will be giving birth any day now I also desperately need a car for work. I cannot keep using my skoda because it's failed it's MOT and needs around £1000 in repairs. 

s66_redacted.pdf

[dx100uk]

i agree with your stance but you are in a hard place with a feather as a rock hammer.

 

launching a claim is not quick and you have to go thru the 30 day+ pre action protocol now. letter of claim etc.

 

i would keep evidence in the car that police are investigating, in case you got stopped for no MOT, but as theres 10'000's+ of such cars in the road you'd be very unlucky.

 

the text msg is good enough evidence too

 

dx

[FabledFabia]

Thanks, I will start drafting these today. If by Thursday I have no good news from the seller, I will look to send out these letters on Friday. 

[Bazooka Boo]

Driving a car without an MOT is illegal, and invalidates any insurance you have on it.

 

It isn't worth the risk or the financial penalty that comes with being stopped.

[FabledFabia]

MOT valid until  28 July. Currently not insured, I paid for 3 hour insurance to drive skoda from dealer to my home. I don't plan on using the skoda without insurance. 

[Bazooka Boo]

You did say that it had failed? I don't understand?

 

If you put it in early for an MOT before the date it was due to run out, and it failed, then the car has no MOT.

[FabledFabia]

Hmmm ok. 

 

I was going by this 

 

"If your car fails the MOT TEST before the previous MOT certificate elapses, you can drive it away – but only if the none of the faults are classed as ‘dangerous’ and the minimum standards of roadworthiness are met."

https://www.motoringresearch.com/advice/drive-mot-fail-car-expired/

 

 

edit: I've checked the MOT again and you're right. It cannot be driven.

[dx100uk]

What were that failures?

 

 

[FabledFabia]

Do not drive until repaired (dangerous defects):

• Nearside Front Tyre has ply or cords exposed cut in tread + tyre is below legal limit inner and outer edges (5.2.3 (d) (ii))
• Offside Front Tyre tread depth below requirements of 1.6mm inner edge (5.2.3 (e))

Repair immediately (major defects):

• Offside Front Track rod end ball joint has excessive play (2.1.3 (b) (i))
• Offside Power steering component leaking leaking from rack inside gaiter (2.1.5 (a))
• Offside Front Coil spring fractured or broken (5.3.1 (b) (i))

Mechanic told me it would cost around £800 to fix all these issues. We're expecting a child so I got a loan to get a bigger car, then all this happened  

 

I have terrible luck with cars, when I first bought the Skoda in 2019, I came to these forums for help, because I had issues with that purchase too (see my post history) 

[dx100uk]

Oops no you should not be driving it, obvious can be seen by plod if you stopped near them. Re tyres 

 

Though AFAIK mot failures are not alerted to the in car ANPR system if the car had one and you drove by it...ping!! Ping!!

 

Dx

[Manxman in exile]

5 hours ago, Bazooka Boo said:

Driving a car without an MOT is illegal, and invalidates any insurance you have on it.

 

It isn't worth the risk or the financial penalty that comes with being stopped.

 

Are you certain that's necessarily correct?

 

5 hours ago, FabledFabia said:

MOT valid until  28 July. Currently not insured, I paid for 3 hour insurance to drive skoda from dealer to my home. I don't plan on using the skoda without insurance. 

 

Unless the car is SORN, doesn't that mean you are breaching the "continuous insurance" rules and committing an offence?

 

(I'm not commenting on whether the vehicle may or may not be roadworthy... )

[Bazooka Boo]

Yes 100%.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Bazooka Boo

[FabledFabia]

@Manxman in exile

Thanks, I didn't know this. For now, I will take my chances, the car is just parked on a private drive. Will see how things go, if it looks like I'll be in for a legal battle I will insure the car and pay the 1K to get it back on the road.

 

@dx100uk I am drafting the letter of claim now, looking at this 'pre action protocol' , is it relevant to me as an individual? I am not a business . 

From the introduction "This Protocol applies to any business (including sole traders and public bodies) claiming payment of a debt from an individual (including a sole trader)."

 

Please could I have a review of my refund request letter? I plan to send this out on Thursday (assuming I haven't heard anything good back from the seller). 

 

After 14 days, if I still hear nothing, I will send a letter of claim. 

redacted of Qashqai Refund Letter.pdf

[Manxman in exile]

23 hours ago, Bazooka Boo said:

Yes 100%.

 

So you are 100% certain that not having a MOT - even though your car is otherwise roadworthy - necessarily "invalidates any insurance you have on it"?

 

Apologies for pressing you and @Homer67 on the point, but I'm not sure that that is correct(?).

 

Is My Car Insurance Valid Without An MOT? | comparethemarket.com

 

No MOT Doesn't Invalidate Insurance - Patterson Law

 

I'm not even sure that if a term of your policy said that you needed a current valid MOT that that would necessarily invalidate your insurance in the event of an accident if the cause of the claim was unrelated to not having an MOT.  (eg the car was otherwise roadworthy and would pass an MOT).

 

Please note - I'm not suggesting that people should go around breaking the law by driving without a MOT cars that require one - that would be stupid - I'm simply questioning your rather broad and categoric statement that not having a MOT means your insurance is invalid.  I'm not sure you are correct.  [Edit:  You may have a source to back up your view?  I'd be interested to know as I think it's important that consumers get the best and most accurate advice.  I know that some views given are not always correct]

 

Personally I'd be more concerned that the OP might be in breach of the continuous insurance legislation ...

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Manxman in exile

[Homer67]

@Manxman in exileas far as I am ware in the HC it states you can only drive a car without an MOT to an arranged MOT appointment, any other journey is an offence and knowingly driving illegally is a clause in your insurance that states it would be invalidated.

[Bazooka Boo]

And it all becomes about MMIE, this isn't your thread to start willy waving, if you have information that will assist the OP then divulge it.

 

If you are all knowing then clearly I'm beneath you and what anyone else says is completely inaccurate.

 

Back to the subject, if you were to have an accident whilst driving a car without a valid MOT then your insurance company would most likely revoke your insurance, hence why ANPR snags vehicles without MOT's, because the driver will be driving outside the terms of the insurance policy, ie, you won't have any.

[FabledFabia]

Last Thursday, I called the officer in charge of the case and asked him to speak with the dealer.

 

He called the dealer and explained the situation. The dealer refunded me my money in full on Friday.

 

This was a bad experience for me, but I don't think the dealer acted maliciously, to that end I will try to remove their name from this post.

[dx100uk]

Well done!

 

You don't need to remove their name .

 

We can mark this as resolved by dealer and it will do them good publicity wise .far better!!

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

On 14/07/2022 at 12:40, Homer67 said:

@Manxman in exileas far as I am ware in the HC it states you can only drive a car without an MOT to an arranged MOT appointment, any other journey is an offence and knowingly driving illegally is a clause in your insurance that states it would be invalidated.

 

On 14/07/2022 at 13:24, Bazooka Boo said:

And it all becomes about MMIE, this isn't your thread to start willy waving, if you have information that will assist the OP then divulge it.

 

If you are all knowing then clearly I'm beneath you and what anyone else says is completely inaccurate.

 

Back to the subject, if you were to have an accident whilst driving a car without a valid MOT then your insurance company would most likely revoke your insurance, hence why ANPR snags vehicles without MOT's, because the driver will be driving outside the terms of the insurance policy, ie, you won't have any.

 

So you're both wrong.

 

Not having a MOT does not necessarily invalidate your insurance.  It might do - but not necessarily.

 

I'm sure that @dx100uk can confirm that I have corrected wrong advice that he's given a poster within the last couple of weeks and he or she has got eight time more posts than you two combined have.

 

It isn't me doing the willy waving... 

[Ethel Street]

On 14/07/2022 at 13:24, Bazooka Boo said:

 

 

On 14/07/2022 at 13:24, Bazooka Boo said:

back to the subject, if you were to have an accident whilst driving a car without a valid MOT then your insurance company would most likely revoke your insurance, hence why ANPR snags vehicles without MOT's, because the driver will be driving outside the terms of the insurance policy, ie, you won't have any.

 

I worked over 30 years in insurance, including a spell as Motor technical director for a national insurer, and I have never seen a policy that excluded claims if the vehicle had no MOT. 

 

So many policies exist nowadays that maybe some do have that exclusion, but I've not seen one.

 

If the car is actually unsafe that's a different matter, with or without a valid MOT.

 

I have never seen an exclusion for "driving illegally" either. If it existed everyone who got a speeding ticket would get prosecuted for driving without insurance as well.

[Bazooka Boo]

I guess I wasn't very clear in the way I explained it, and perhaps my experiences have confused my understanding.

 

But that's for another thread completely I feel.

[Manxman in exile]

14 hours ago, Bazooka Boo said:

I guess I wasn't very clear in the way I explained it, and perhaps my experiences have confused my understanding.

 

But that's for another thread completely I feel.

 

Most polite people in my experience apologise after being publicly rude, wrong and sarcastic...

 

On 14/07/2022 at 13:24, Bazooka Boo said:

And it all becomes about MMIE, this isn't your thread to start willy waving, if you have information that will assist the OP then divulge it.

 

If you are all knowing then clearly I'm beneath you and what anyone else says is completely inaccurate...

 Same goes for @Homer67 who liked your rudeness...

Edited July 23, 2022 by Manxman in exile

[Bazooka Boo]

3 hours ago, Manxman in exile said:

 

Most polite people in my experience apologise after being publicly rude, wrong and sarcastic...

 

 Same goes for @Homer67 who liked your rudeness...

 

Flowers are in the post petal. 

[Manxman in exile]

Well I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised that you both think that posting wrong advice on a public forum is a laughing matter.

[Bazooka Boo]

It's hardly life or death is it?

 

Get over yourself.