5 CCJ's+restriction k's - been paying 2 after order of sale attempts . **RESOLVED £52K saved - NONE PAID but on-going**

[gtn]

Hello CAG Forum,

 

I jointly own our home with my wife. We are currently up-to-date with our mortgage payments, but that could change in the coming months and we managed to fight off an order for repossession in 2019 due to mortgage arrears. We have just over 3 years on the mortgage left, but cannot see the finish line so we have decided to sell and downsize. The aim is to be mortgage and debt free.

 

We have 5 charging orders from loans and credit cards from around 2007 to 2010. The 5 CO's are in sole names, 1 for me and 4 for my wife. We are currently paying 2 of the CO's off at £70 and £20 per month, but it will take years/decades to clear them. The total value of the 5 CO's today is circa £35K. In 2011 and 2017 two of them offered a 40% discount for settlement, which we could not afford. In 2020 another one offered an 20% discount for settlement.

 

There is enough equity to clear the CO's in full from the proceeds of the sale, but I would like to negotiate a settlement on all 5 CO's of 40%. This will mean we are mortgage and debt free and have some cash left over. Does the fact that the CO's are in sole names and the house is in joint names help?  Looking for any advice to assist on negotiating a settlement. Thanks in advance.

[gtn]

Thanks for the reply. I am not 100% sure what Are these restrictions K? means.

 

If it means interim charging orders then no, they are full charging orders.

 

Ok a bit more background on this. In all 5 charging order cases:

1. The creditors obtained a CCJ in sole name
2. They then obtained an interim charging order
3. They then obtained a final charging order
4. The charging orders are registered with the Land Registry
5. The debts were either sold on or are managed by DCA's
6. In 2 cases they applied for an order for sale which we defended, hence 2 are being repaid monthly

 

[gtn]

Ok thank you for the response and links, those were useful.

 

So the wording and registration of a Final Charging Order with HM Land Registry is just a scam and these are actually restriction K's because they are sole debts against a jointly owned property. Is that correct?

 

For 100% clarity are these Final Charging Orders as worded by the Court and Land Registry or restriction k's?

 

The next step then is to read the wording of the Final Charging Orders/restrictions K's (?) as that seems to be a key element.

 

I know if I was buying this house I would want the charges/restrictions removed before or at completion of the sale. I don't have the funds to settle prior to completion.

 

Order for Sale X 2. I went to court for the hearings and agreed a small monthly repayment. If I had not attended then they would have been granted an order for sale, at least that was the advice I was getting.

 

Selling & Debts: We are selling because we cannot see getting past the next 3 years of mortgage payments, which will lead to a repossession order from the mortgage provider. If we sell and I can arrange a settlement with the vultures we can downsize and be mortgage free and debt free. Our current debt levels are low and manageable for now. These will be cleared in full when we sell and downsize, provided I can negotiate a settlement of around 60%

 

 I have just obtained a copy of the Title from Land Registry. This shows under section B Proprietorship Register:

1. Proprietor me and my wife with the property address
2. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate
   by the proprietor of the registered estate is to be registered
   without a written consent signed by the proprietor for the time
   being of the Charge dated XX/XX/XXX in favour of X referred to in the Charges Register (I'm assuming this is the mortgage provider)
3. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate
   is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant
   for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the
   disposition was given to X1 (Ref: X1)
   at care of XYZ Solicitors,  (Ref: X1) being the person with
   the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of Mrs. N made by the County Court
   on XX/XX/2007 under claim number X1.
4. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to X2 at care of ABC Solicitors being the person with the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of Ms. N. made by the County Court on XX/XX/2007 Court reference: X2.
5. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to X3 (Ref. X3) at care of EFG Solicitors, (Ref. X3), being the person with the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of Mrs. N. made by the County Court on xx/xx/ 2008 (Claim No. X3).
6. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to X4 at Court being the person with the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of Mr. N made by the  County Court on XX/XX/2008 (Claim Number: X4).
7. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate, other than a disposition by the proprietor of any registered charge registered before the entry of this restriction, is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant for registration or their conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to X5 being the person with the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of Mrs. N made by the  County Court on XX/XX/2008 (Court reference X5).

Under section C Charges Register:

This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land.

 

1. REGISTERED CHARGE dated xx/xx/ 2000.
2. Proprietor: Banks name and address.

End of register

[gtn]

Secret squirrel, yep that's me  

 

they have all been sold on to debt collectors and their in-house legal hounds chase them.

In no particular order the vultures are:

 

Cabot Financial

Northern Rock

CL Finance

Arrow Global (me)

Arrow Global (wife)

 

No other debt companies chasing for any other debts. We only have 2 credit cards now and we manage those as interest free cash flow. We have reduced them significantly and have not paid any interest on them for a while.

 

The 2 monthly payments were agreed in the court hearing with the debt collector and the judge. I put forward a budget and the repayment (very low) proposal.

 

Following up this feedback which is the key critical issue for me:

 

Quote

"those are all restriction k's. they do not need settling or paying if you sell."

 

I need to understand 100% why this is and how we can not settle or pay if we sell. When I speak to my conveyancer and they to the buyers conveyancer they will want these settling to proceed to exchange and completion. 

 

I have found a website by a legal firm that seem to specialize in helping Debt Collectors. Their blog talks about standard wording on Final Charging Orders and restrictions. It states:

 

"The practical effect of this type of restriction is that the purchaser (My Buyer)of the property must give notice of the transfer to the creditor (The Vulture) with the benefit of the charging order and then send to the Land Registry a certificate that this has been done. The problem with this loose form of wording is that the notice can be given after the transfer has taken place (but before registration of it at Land Registry) and this can be after the proceeds of sale have passed into the hands of the judgement debtor (Me and the better Half)."

 

On that basis I need to be 100% confident in my understanding of this process to tell my buyers conveyancer to give notice to the vultures after completion. Their fear will be they are buying a property with charges that they will then inherit and struggle to remove.

[gtn]

Ok so I just need to inform my conveyancer that the home buyer solicitor writes to each restriction k owner after the sale saying my clients now own the property after the completion date. Matter of fact as these are restriction K's as worded. The restriction creates a charge on the beneficial interest of the sole debtor (the net sales proceeds) not the estate/property.

 

This bit concerns me though:

No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant (the buyer) for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to X care of X Solicitors.

 

This means they will write beforehand and forewarn the vultures of the sale as part of the conveyancing process. They have nothing to gain from delaying until after completion and may see it as not in their interests or morally wrong to delay. It seems that this is out of my control.

 

Has anyone successfully managed this process to an agreed and favourable settlement  or indeed non-payment to the vultures? I would be happy with a 60% settlement and even happier with a 0% settlement. 

[gtn]

Sorry, I haven't bought or sold a house in over 20 years, and never one with restrictions.

 

I would agree 100% if its after the sale then yes, I can literally pay nothing to these vultures. I have no moral issue with that, these people are making money from misery.

 

Why would it be after the sale though? The conveyancers will see these restrictions when they process the documents. Surely the buyers conveyancer will be looking to have these restrictions removed prior to or at completion and therefore write to the vultures in time to have these cleared before or at completion? I agree the restriction is standard wording and does not stipulate a 14-day before exchange/completion timeframe.

 

 

[gtn]

Ok that is interesting. On that basis these restrictions are a chocolate teapot. The debt collection solicitor website blog I quoted previously pretty much agrees as well. 

 

National Debt Line (NDL) and CAB both advised I would have to pay these  off as part of the conveyancing process and that the buyer wouldn't proceed unless that was the case. It seems intuitive that would be part of the conveyancing process. Here is the advice from NDL today:

 

Essentially you will need to approach them (the vultures) in order to obtain their blessing to proceed with the sale. You can do this yourself to begin with or alternatively delegate it to any solicitors handling a sale on your behalf. The buying party will normally want any such restrictions to be lifted before they'll proceed with a purchase.

 

The first step should be to approach the creditors themselves to establish what they would be prepared to settle for if not the full balance of their debt. You needn't necessarily announce your intention to sell at this point, just get a broad idea of whether any of them are open to settling for a reduced one-off lump sum.

 

That would make sense to me but it is in complete contrast to your advice and the aforementioned debt collection solicitor website. This bit made me angry: obtain their blessing to proceed with the sale  

 

I don't mind settling at 60% but I feel no moral obligation to settle at all. They did after all buy bad debt for <20p in the £1 and then try to make me and my family homeless twice. If I can get away without paying them anything I will do.

 

There are two lines of advice then in my situation then as follows:

1. I don't need to do anything as these restrictions cannot be enforced after the sale has completed
2. I will need to negotiate with the vultures as the conveyancing process will alert them and I need their 'blessing to proceed with the sale' and the buyer will want them clearing to proceed to buy

So if I do nothing at all the sale process will just proceed and I will have no problems whatsoever. I'm struggling to see that being the outcome in reality although I don't doubt it should be the case. 

 

I need to educate myself on this as I fear being passive will lead me to the NDL route and I'll end up paying 100% to these vultures. 

[gtn]

Stabbed in the back and screwed at the same time you mean, I would laugh but it's not funny is it. This is peoples lives and their families future they are messing with. 

 

I put your argument to NDL without mentioning it as advice from CAG. I also advised NDL the sole nature of the restrictions being against the interest in the property and not the property itself, which is jointly owned. This was their response:

 

You're likely to find in practice that the creditors will refuse to release the restriction unless they are satisfied that their debts will be settled to their satisfaction. Likewise buyers and their representatives tend to be reluctant to proceed until these restrictions are lifted. Otherwise the restrictions serve no benefit for the creditors. The Land Registry won't allow the restrictions to be withdrawn unilaterally without good reason.

We don't purport to offer legal advice on conveyancing issues here so you're best to approach the conveyancing solicitors directly if you wish to discuss the finer points. We can only advise on how this tends to affect such transactions in practice.

 

They then unilaterally ended the chat! I guess they didn't like my response then?

 

I have to say that NDL advice makes perfect sense to me:

1. why bother with restrictions if they are worthless in our circumstance; sole debt and joint ownership?
2. why would the buyer proceed to completion from a risk or moral perspective as they have nothing to gain
3. why would Land Registry allow the restrictions to be withdrawn unilaterally without good reason

This is a big call and literally makes £000's difference to what we can afford when we downsize. 

 

My gut feeling is once the vultures know we are proceeding with a sale they will hold out for 100%. They will find out if I attempt to negotiate or if a conveyancing solicitor informs them during the conveyancing process.

 

How do I manage the process so that:

1. The buyers and their conveyancer do not insist on the restrictions being cleared pre or upon completion
2. The vultures do not find out until after the completion date

For the time being it's as you advised do nothing. I do need to monitor this and plan ahead though.

[gtn]

The more I'm reading the better I understand this.

 

It seems that not all conveyancers understand it either, or as you implied will educate and help you understand it and would rather make sure you pay from the proceeds even though you don't have to. 

 

No other debts, they all dropped off the CCJ register as >6 years old, we didn't pay anything on these and ignored the bailiff threats. 5 of the CCJ's became the 5 restrictions I am looking to manage now. 

 

The most they have cost so far is a bit of worry/stress at the time and a few quid every month. Insignificant really. If the sale completes I will stop paying those two monthly amounts anyway. Once the sale completes it's a two finger salute to the vultures. 

 

Quote

now stop looking for ways to get mugged and move.

 

I'm a natural born worrier, I like to do what if's and plan a head. I can only do that if I know the facts. That works as I have got this advice from you and ignored the NDL and CAB advice.

 

The MSE link in the thread from your earlier post is a long one but its worth investing the time to do research. Yes I know I don't need to but I'll feel happier. Plus if I have knowledge maybe I can help someone myself.

 

They were all credit cards or personal unsecured loans. The legal process for the CCJ's was a stich up and we were had there, definitely. That's why we didn't pay them.

 

I just need to ensure my solicitor/conveyancer understands that I understand and I wont be mugged through ignorance on this.

 

Thanks for your help. I will post progress and keep CAG updated on this. 

 

also....Received a letter from a DCA today in connection with one of the restrictions. Apparently they need to contact me to discuss how we can work together on a repayment plan. Their team is going to review the case to determine if a home visit (veiled threat) will help me.

[gtn]

Understood.

 

Been there and got the t-shirt. 99.9999% certain no one will visit, but thanks for the advice.

 

Ok I found this article updated on the 23/04/2021 on the .gov.uk website today which states:

 

Jointly owned property

It is not possible to register a charging order as an ‘equitable charge’ on a jointly owned property unless all the owners / registered proprietors are judgment debtors. Where only one of the owners / registered proprietors is the judgment debtor, the order will be registered as a ‘restriction’.

 

A notice or restriction does not impose an obligation to make payment when the property is sold. 

 

That pretty much mirrors the advice from dx100uk and overturns the advice from NDL yesterday.

 

This matters greatly to me so I will continue to seek advice and feedback to further my understanding to the point where I am the expert. Please keep posting help and advice.

 

Ok here is another angle, what if the buyers are obtaining a mortgage to purchase the property, will that impact the process?

[gtn]

Ok an update on the conclusion of this thread. I hope this helps someone.

1. The advice I was given on this thread was in complete contrast to advice I was given by National Debt Line (NDL) and the Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB).
2. The situation was significant in terms of value and impact to me and my family
3. Getting the right advice was therefore critical
4. The advice from the Consumer Action Group (CAG) was 100% correct

Following the advice from CAG has made a huge positive impact and it is shocking that organisations like NDL and CAB are giving misleading and biased advice that would have seriously disadvantaged me. 

 

The key to the successful outcome was getting the right conveyancer. Our first conveyancer took the NDL/CAB approach. We changed conveyancer, and it was exactly as the CAG advice said it would be.

 

RATM - Take the Power back! 

[gtn]

Ok my next step is to stop paying the 2 DCA's repayments that were put in place to fend off the orders for sale. Those vultures have had enough of our money. The CCJ's fell off the register years ago and the restriction k's were chocolate teapots.  It really is one big rip off scheme.

 

I'll need to reassure my wife who is fearful of door stepping and/or further recovery actions. Any advice on potential follow up from the DCA's and how to manage it greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

 

[gtn]

Hello,

 

Yes that's correct. The first CCJ was late 2007 and the second was early 2008. Both CCJ's were removed from the register and our credit files in 2013/2014. I understand they stay on file for 6 years.

 

Both CCJ's obtained a charging order in court and then went for an order for sale, which was unsuccessful. The debts were sold by the original creditors to different DCA's. The original debts were unsecured credit card balances. We started making monthly payments around 2016. 

 

Am I correct in my understanding from what I read so far:

1. The CCJ's are no longer valid as they have expired
2. There is no longer a CCJ to enforce
3. The charging orders (restriction k's) are no longer applicable be cause we sold/moved home
4. There is very little the DCA's can do except harass and threaten us
5. I guess these are not time barred as we have been making payments

 

Ta

[gtn]

Thanks for clarifying and understood.

 

Why would I give them my new address in writing? Seems to be counter intuitive and inviting them to door step me.

 

I'm going to check who issued the CCJ's, as I cannot recall if it was the OC or the DCA. 

[gtn]

Noted. Interesting that CCJ's never expire even though they fall off the register/credit file record. These go back to 2007/2008, a life sentence in effect!

 

So the procedure for the 2 debts that I am currently paying monthly owned by DCA's that have CCJ's > 6 years old is write to them with my new address quoting my debt ref. # and nothing else. Stop paying them the monthly payments and wait to see what happens. In one instance it was the OC (HSBC) who obtained the CCJ, in the other it was the DCA (Arrow) who obtained the CCJ.

 

For the 3 other debts (HBOS, Arrow, CL Finance) where I have not written, communicated or paid anything since the CCJ's (all > 6 years old) and restrictions k's were obtained the procedure is:

1.  write to them with my new address quoting my debt ref. # and nothing else and wait to see what happens, OR
2. Continue ignoring them as they are not pursuing them (let sleeping dogs lie rather than running from debt)

 I note we have had a small number of debt collection letters/calls.

 

 

[gtn]

Badtimes 123, totally agree with you and glad the results made you smile.

 

I'm hoping that someone in a similar position as I was will be able to pickup this thread up and use my experience and apply it. Even if it's just the warning that NDL and CAB are really the smiling friend stabbing you in the back.

 

It has been a long and sometimes dark journey, more than a decade and still ongoing. The current status would not have been unachievable without the advice offered in this forum.

 

I'm not in a position to make a donation at this stage, but I soon will be and I certainly will do so. I revisited this thread so that I could update the forum and pass on the outcome to help someone else. Supporting the forum and its volunteers with a donation is a moral given.

 

Letters being written and will be sent with a certificate of postage obtained.  

[gtn]

I checked the CCJ's and some are showing the OC as the claimant and some are showing the DCA/new debt owner as the claimant. What difference does this make to me, and their ability to recover the debt and enforce the CCJ's?

 

For example one credit card provider issued a default notice in 2008 and then the debt was bought by Arrow who issued a CCJ, obtained judgement, then a final charging order and attempted an order for sale. We agreed a monthly payment of £70 a month on a debt of £12K. we have paid £5K and there is still £7K to pay.

 

The debt is owned by Arrow, they have a CCJ, a payment arrangement, we get letters from their legal reps and they had a restriction on our previous home. Where does that leave me once I send the new address letter and stop paying the monthly payment? Why would they just disappear and not pursue enforcement of the CCJ and possibly obtain a charging order?

 

Apologies for the questions, just trying to understand it. Thanks in advance.

[gtn]

Thanks dx100uk, your guidance and advice is greatly appreciated.

 

Ok letters in envelopes ready to go 2nd class and I will get proof of postage.

 

My wife and I had a discussion and have decided to continue paying the two we are already paying, at least for now. We will revisit in due course once we know what follow up action comes our way. Having reviewed the files/paperwork we are still getting regular letters from 4 of these and telephone calls from 1. 

 

 

[gtn]

Hello CAG,

 

Ok we have received a letter to our new address. The original debt was from 2006 with Yorkshire Bank who obtained a CCJ.

 

A final charging order was dismissed and we have had periodic letters offering settlement for 75% and 70%, which we could not afford.  Looking at some of those letters, they mention the original creditor as Yorkshire Bank and their client as MCE Portfolio. The latest letter refers to Yorkshire Bank with no mention of MCE Portfolio. Cabot Financial and MCE Portfolio are part of the same group of companies. The letter is asking that we set up a repayment plan via Cabot Financial. 

 

Looking at this thread and the letters, it would appear Yorkshire Bank sold the debt to MCE Portfolio and it is very unlikely that any paperwork exits to enforce the debt, except the CCJ.

1. Am I correct that Yorkshire Bank sold the debt to MCE Portfolio?
2.  Can  MCE Portfolio and/or Cabot Financial use the CCJ from Yorkshire Bank to pursue the debt?
3. In the past we have largely ignored these letters, so what are my next steps to manage this properly?

TIA and Regards

gtn

 

[gtn]

Hi, and thanks for the reply.

 

5 charging orders with restriction K's, 2 of which we were, and still are paying, following an attempt to obtain an Order For Sale.

 

7 CCJ's all circa 2006 to 2008 five of which obtained a final charging order, 2 of the 5 with final charging orders went for an Order For Sale but were unsuccessful. All of the debts were in sole names and unsecured made up of 5 credit cards, 1 personal loan and 1 overdraft.

 

1. £3K HSBC with final charging order (credit card)
2. £4.8K Northern Rock with final charging order (personal loan)
3. £11.6K MBNA with final charging order (credit card)
4. £12K MBNA with final charging order (credit card)
5. £9.5K HBOS with final charging order (credit card)
6. £3.2K HBOS no charging order(bank overdraft) 
7. £7.6K Yorkshire Bank no charging order (credit card)

We moved house earlier this year and the restriction K's did not impact our move.

 

Re #5 and #7 we have received letters from both now.

 

Question: What do you mean "let it run"? Does that mean ignore the letters or reply? If I need to reply, in what way, with a SAR?

[gtn]

Great, ok then that's all very good news. 

 

The 2 we are paying are:

• £3K HSBC (credit card) who got  the CCJ and then sold to MCE Portfolio
• £11.6K MBNA (credit card) sold to Arrow who got the CCJ

We only pay a small amount, that's all we can afford, and it will take years to clear them.

 

Advise noted, I will do nothing.

 

Is there a way to conclude these once and for all? 

[gtn]

Ok, noted and thanks again.

[gtn]

Ok I'm now getting a couple of chasing letters from DCA's, some to my old address! These are redirected by Royal Mail to my new address.

 

Usual content:

• Contact us to set up a payment plan
• 25% settlement discount (pay 75%)
• Complete an income and expenditure form
• One of the letters refers to the charging order!  (on the previous property)

Do I need to write to the DCA and advise them of the new address?

Edited September 12, 2022 by gtn

[gtn]

Thanks Dx. Just looking at the paperwork file and one of these DCA's seems to write once a year! 

[gtn]

Hello dx100uk,

 

All fine here under the current economic circumstances. Definitely more secure financially by selling and getting a cheaper property. We were only able to do that by managing, with the advice from CAG, the restriction K's.

 

I think if we haven't of sold and moved, we would have gone under by now given what has happened in relation to inflation and interest rates.

 

We carried on paying the two creditors that we had already made a payment arrangement with, although that is under review given the inflation impact on our finances. 

 

Nothing heard from any of the creditors except one who has been issuing lots of letters to our new address, making telephone calls, and sending text messages. We have ignored all of it.

 

They have sent Resolvecall to do a home visit. I answered the door and politely told their agent to leave, which he did after leaving a card, with a reference number asking me to call them. I haven't called and we are now getting text messages from them marked URGENT.

 

Is it written off?

 

If it were all written off, excluding the two we pay it would be circa £35K, which includes charges, interest, legal and court fees. That's the CCJ amounts.

 

Sorry make that £51.7K in total.

 

Here's an update on the 7 CCJ's / 5 restriction K's

1. £3K HSBC with final charging order (credit card)                                                           STILL PAYING A SMALL MONTHLY AMOUNT. RECEIVED LETTERS AND A STATMENT TO MY OLD ADDRESS, REDIRECTED BY ROYAL MAIL. NO OTHER ACTIVITY.
2. £4.8K Northern Rock with final charging order (personal loan)                                  JUST AN ANNUAL STATEMENT TO MY OLD ADDRESS REDIRECTED BY ROYAL MAIL. NO OTHER ACTIVITY.
3. £11.6K MBNA with final charging order (credit card)                                                   STILL PAYING A SMALL MONTHLY AMOUNT. OCASSIONAL LETTERS.
4. £12K MBNA with final charging order (credit card).                                                                STILL WRITING (ANNUAL LETTER) TO MY OLD ADDRESS (REDIRECTED BY ROYAL MAIL) AND REFERENCING THE FINAL CHARGING ORDER.
5. £9.5K HBOS with final charging order (credit card)                                                REGULAR LETTERS, CALLS AND TEXT MESSAGES. SENT A DCA TO DO A HOME VISIT, WHO I TOLD TO LEAVE. STILL SENDING TEXT MESSAGES.
6. £3.2K HBOS no charging order(bank overdraft)                                                                      NOTHING HEARD.
7. £7.6K Yorkshire Bank no charging order (credit card)                                                           REGULAR LETTERS VARYING FROM 1 A MONTH TO 1 EVERY 3 MONTHS TO NEW ADDRESS.
8.  

Having reread the whole thread I guess I still do nothing and see what action/follow up is taken if any.

Is that correct, especially in relation to #5?