VCS/ELMS PCN PAPLOC now Claimform - residential - Headford Mews, Sheffield, S3 7XL

[FTMDave]

As well as Supremacy of Contract, I've just noticed you sent the snotty letter to VCS, whereas you state the PCN was issued by Excel.

 

Although both companies are owned by the same shark, Simon Renshaw-Smith, they are legally completely separate entities, and one company cannot sue you for a debt with the other company.  Simple Simon has lost in court on this point several times.

 

Can you give us a brief description of what happened, keeping in mind VCS/Excel?  Who were you working for in Headford Mews?  Which company  name was on the signage (if you can remember)?  Which company sent you the PCN?  And the reminder letters?  And the Letter Before Action/Letter Before Claim?

 

Plus, is this place near to you?  If you could go back and get pictures of the signage it would really help and would clarify matters.

 

EDIT: as dx requested above, can you please redact & then upload as a PDF all the communications between you & VCS/Excel.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by FTMDave

[FTMDave]

2 hours ago, Hideyspidey said:

Yes but it was excel then they passed it to vcs and now elms. I just want to know if i reply to them. 

Excel can't pass the case to VCS.  It's got nothing to do with VCS.  Simple Simon has made a huge mistake which you can exploit.

 

You've already been through Pre-Action Protocol.  You got a Letter Before Claim.  You replied that you're not paying.  There's no point in sending any more letters.  It's now up to Simple Simon to decide if he has the gonads to take you to court.

 

You have a brilliant chance of seeing this off due to both Supremacy of Contract and Simon's Excel/VCS mess up.  So to work out how best to exploit this second point - can we see the redacted correspondence please?  

 

 

[FTMDave]

Thanks.  Have you still got the original PCN?

 

Plus, is this place local to you?  Would it be easy to go back and get photos of the signage?

[FTMDave]

Simple Simon might give in after you fought back confidently with a snotty letter, or he may still take you to court.  He has phases of issuing court claims like confetti.  After all, it only costs £25 and can be done in under a minute on a computer as his claims are all copy & paste.

 

You're in a great position to smash any claim, especially due to this Excel/VCS mix-up - as long as you gather evidence now.  Which company was shown on the car park signage?  Which on the PCN?  Etc.

 

This should all have been done in January, not at the last minute when a claim form could drop through your letter box tomorrow, and you should never throw away the paperwork when you're in legal dispute. 

[FTMDave]

Yes, I was thinking SAR too.  Send two off - one to VCS and one to Excel.  Separate envelopes.  Get two free Certificates of Posting from the post office.

 

The reason I ask about signage is because it's important to know whether Simple Simon put up signs with Excel on them, or VCS, or indeed both (such idiocy has been known!)  Are you on good terms with the people you did the work for?  Could they take some pix?

 

 

[FTMDave]

5 hours ago, Hideyspidey said:

Today I have received a claim form for court.  Shall I defend?

Of course you should defend.  As you said in post 1, you were a contractor and had every right to be there.

 

On 11/05/2021 at 14:10, Hideyspidey said:

No I'm in Lincoln.  I could try though.  No original pcn threw it away considering it came just before xmas

To be blunt, that was just stupid.  It takes less physical effort to keep something in your house than to throw it away.  You now have to construct a defence without knowing which of these companies originally pursued you.

 

However, there is a solution, to file a generic defence now and to get the information from the SARs for use further down the line.

 

You need to get photos of the signs in Sheffield.  Can the person you did the work for help you out? 

[FTMDave]

So to sum up.

 

1.  Please fill in the forum sticky.

 

2.  Register on MCOL and acknowledge service.

 

3.  Send a CPR request to the fleecers or their solicitors if they are represented  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/409718-cpr-3114-request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-ppc-private-land-parking-court-claim/

 

You have 33 days to file a defence which gives time for the SARs to turn up and hopefully the photo problem resolved.  I see we have someone who has a court case against VCS shortly at Sheffield county court.  You could post on this person's thread and politely ask if they could take the photos.  Nothing ventured ...  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/419686-vcs-anpr-pcn-paploc-now-claimform-double-dipping-st-marys-gate-retail-park-s1-4qz/page/2/#comments

 

[FTMDave]

3 hours ago, Hideyspidey said:

I have the original privacy notice that they put in my car. Can I post a photo of it?

I don't know what you mean by "privacy notice" but yes, please post up all the evidence you have.

[FTMDave]

4 hours ago, Hideyspidey said:

I have registered on MCOL, do i fill anything out yet?

You need to acknowledge service.

 

4 hours ago, Hideyspidey said:

Will post CPR on Tuesday registered delivery

Up to you, but normal postage with free Certificate of Posting is legal proof of delivery.

 

You uploaded a photo of a sign.  Where has this come from?  Is it something Simon sent?  Or is it a photo you've had taken yourself?

[FTMDave]

Good work.

 

So we're waiting on the SARs, but the best guess is that this is a VCS car park, Simon's teaboy then made a schoolboy error and send out an Excel PCN, after all of the later correspondence and court claim were from VCS.  That means you've never received a VCS PCN, had no right of appeal, etc., etc.

 

That's aside from you having every right to be there.

 

It's not looking good for Simon ...

[FTMDave]

It looks like Simon has realised the Excel mistake and has simply lied and has quickly knocked up a false NTK "from" VCS.  However, can you please redact & upload this round of letters so we can be sure?

 

The Site Team are working on defences at the moment, work which is due to be finished tomorrow, so hang on 24 hours and we'll get back to you. 

 

In any case, as HB says, the defence will be very, very generic.  We want to keep Simon guessing.

 

Also, in post 40, you set out VCS's PoC in five numbered paragraphs.  Is that what the original is like?  I ask as it would be useful when your defence is filed to attack the PoC paragraph by paragraph.  Usually this isn't possible as Simon just files a cut & paste wall of text.

 

 

[FTMDave]

Understood dx.

[FTMDave]

1 hour ago, Hideyspidey said:

its getting too stressful and i fear a  payment is just the easy option now.

It makes no sense to give in now.  The amount you would pay now, and the amount you would pay even if you lost in court, is essentially the same.

 

1 hour ago, Hideyspidey said:

Ive had another ticket too now from another company despite being on a list of allowed contractors for parking somewhere else.

So this time don't throw away the paperwork, start a new thread, and we'll help you fight that one too.

[FTMDave]

I wrote to hang on 24 hours but in reality the links dx posted are excellent.  Please draft a similar defence and put it here, we'll retweak if necessary.

[FTMDave]

They've sent everything except the original PCN.  Now I wonder why that might be ...

[FTMDave]

It's because the PCN was from Excel, whereas the car park signs and all reminder letters are VCS.

[FTMDave]

Contrary to what I wrote in post 60, Simple Simon hasn't forged anything, but there is no original PCN from VCS because as we know it doesn't exist.

 

Your defence is superb in its legal arguments - but it gives Simon too much information about how you intend to fight back.  Keep him guessing.  The Excel business should be mentioned at the last minute in your Witness Statement when Simon will have no time left to make up his lies.  How about -

 

The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are vague and generic in nature which fails to comply with CPR 16.4.  The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.

 

1. The Defendant is the recorded keeper of [motor vehicle].

 

2.  It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant.

 

3.  As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance.  The Claimant was simply contracted by the management company and not the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner / freeholder.  Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim.

 

4.  In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant.

 

5. The Defendant was there under “supremacy of contract” to provide a service to the property to which the parking space is allocated.

 

6.  The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer.

 

7.  The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety.  It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all.

 

Don't worry about MCOL's usual weekend hissy fit, you have all of next week to file.

[FTMDave]

On 20 May you wrote that you had sent the SARs. 

 

20 May + 30  days + 2 days postage out + 2 days postage back = 23 June.  Am I right?  You did get proof of posting with Certificates of Posting, right?  That means Simple Simon has refused to satisfy your SAR requests in the time required by law, and so you can sue him.  I suspect you have had no reply because Simon doesn't want to admit the Excel/VCS mix-up.  It could of course be incompetence/arrogance/laziness and I am coming up with 2+2=5, but I suspect not.

 

So have a little think about what you want to do about this and then get back to us.

 

IMO you should now send a Letter Before Claim to both VCS and Excel demanding they pay you £100 (?) for causing you distress by not replying to your SARs.

 

However, the worst of the worst things you can do in legal dispute is to show yourself as a paper tiger.  Threatening legal action then doing nothing is the worst own goal imaginable.  If you do send an LBA, and if Simon doesn't answer, you have to sue on the first day after the deadline.  Have a think about what you're prepared to do and let us know.

[FTMDave]

Please redact & upload what VCS sent you, just to be on the safe side.  Their reply seems to be very good news, presumably the PCN is missing.

 

If there are photos of the carp signage, please upload them too.

 

This is not looking good for Simon

 

Are you prepared to sue Excel for not replying to your SAR request?

[FTMDave]

The case will be transferred to your local court, don't worry.

 

No, don't go for mediation.

 

Give me a minute and I'll draft a Letter Before Claim to send to Excel.

[FTMDave]

Have a read of post 17 at  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428408-virgin-mystery-extra-line-2-judgments-for-data-protection-breaches-so-far/#comments  i.e. not just the letter but the extremely-important points BF makes.

 

Post up a draft of a Letter Before Claim for £200 to be sent to Excel.

 

BF has a lot of experience in suing for SAR non-compliance and I will ask him to come onto the thread.

 

If you play this right you'll make a few quid and completely humiliate Simon.

 

[FTMDave]

A few things.  Yes, please start a new thread if you wish to sue Excel.  My fault for muddying the waters with two different matters.

 

Bad stuff - your upload from VCS shows a PCN.  Presumably Simple Simon has realised his mistake and forged it.  Your decision to throw away the PCN issued by Excel has now come back to bite you.

 

Good stuff - Simon's photos show one pathetic unilluminated solitary sign.  So as well as Supremacy of Contract you can hit him with insufficient signage.

 

The quality of the close-up photo of the sign is so bad it's impossible to read it properly.  If this is Simon's doing we're stuck with it, but if you can post up a better legible version that would be great as Simon often messes up his signs.

 

If you haven't already done so, look up if VCS have obtained planning permission for their signs.

[FTMDave]

OK, found the photo of the sign in post 40.

[FTMDave]

1 hour ago, dx100uk said:

???

I think the OP means her local court dx.

[FTMDave]

Your case just gets better and better.  Simon has no planning permission.  He is representing himself yet part of his claim is £50 legal costs!  All this will end up in your Witness Statement further down the line.

 

Get that new thread started if you decide to sue Excel.