Bradford & Bingley Old Mortgage

[stan5131]

Can anyone help me on this one. My sister and her husband separated some 10 years ago. He continued to live in the house. They were divorced and he gave her settlement in full, taking into consideration any capital in the house. 6 years later, she was traced out of the blue by DCA to inform her that the house had been repossessed and there was a shortfall of about £4,500. As her ex husband had left the country (now living in Cyprus) he was untraceable and she was told that she was liable for the debt as her name had never been removed from the mortgage. She was told that they could sue her for the full amount (not half) as they couldnt find him. To cut a long story short, she has been paying this for the last 4 years or so at £50 a month. The debt was passed back into the hands of Bradford and Bingley and she now pays direct to them. She has (on my advice) written to Bradford and Bingley for full disclosure of charges etc and we are waiting to hear.

 

My question is; were they right that she was liable for the whole debt and not just half (I would have presumed that he was responsible for the other half)? Also am I right in presuming that as they property was repossessed, will there be charges and penalties levied that she can now claim back.

 

Has anyone any experience of this? All advice greatly appreciated.

[stan5131]

Cany anyone help please

[stan5131]

Alan. Did you get my pm?

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, Stansfield

Me? Wisdom? You flatterer, you!

I can only speak from personal experience. I ain't a lawyer but I have engaged in legal squabbles in the past and with some success. But this is the biggest thing I've ever done and I get the collywobbles from time to time, same as anyone!

Coincidence, though - my sister-in-law is about to get herself in a similar hole.

Anyway. The parties to a joint mortgage are 'jointly and severally liable', which means that everyone is individually liable for the whole amount: if the mortgage company can't find any particular person they just go after whoever they can find for the lot. Is your sister absolutely certain that she wasn't taken off the mortgage? Why didn't her solicitor do it for her? If she engaged a solicitor then s/he should have told her the implications, advised her or done it for her. If s/he didn't then there may be cause for complaint to the Law Society for, possibly, negligence (though I'm prepared to be corrected - but it's certainly something).

In my experience, Bradford and Bingley's admin was appalling. They took over Leamington Mortgage Corporation in the late 80s/early 90s and seem to have struggled for years to assimilate them. It is worth checking again with her solicitor as to whether she was taken off the mortgage, or B&B

were notified.

Yes, you're right to ask about charges. Go further than that: ask for an entire, detailed statement of account, showing all payments in and disbursements out from the beginning of the account. It's in dispute, it's current so all teh info should be available.

As for charges on the repossession: remember, people whose contracts have been breached are entitled to reclaim their costs and repossession involves solicitors and courts and everything.

I do have a question and it may have significant import (import? there's posh).

Was your sister contacted at the time the mortgage went into default? Or when the property was repossessed? If not, what efforts did B&B make to locate her and make her a party to the proceedings?

What was the case number and court? Where are the papers?

It could be a very good idea, with this one, to get in touch with a solicitor - or, at this stage, the CAB (Citizens' Advice Bureau). I can't really give accurate suggestions without seeing all the papers involved (and there's no reason why I should) but I think there may be a glimmer of light, here.

Westy

[stan5131]

Thanks for your reply Westy. I believe her settlement with her ex husband was made out of court. He gave her a lump sum and said he was arranging to have her name removed from the mortgage. I think she just left it at that.... not wanting any more contact with him and not wanting him to know where she lived as he was very violent which was the reason she left. The house was not repossesed until years later. She was very naive at the time and just throught she had to accept it. She tried to find him but his family said he was living in Cyprus and they had no address for him. I think they used real bullying tactics at the time saying that she would loose her present home if she didnt pay up. She finally accepted and just paid them in monthly payments. She is still paying now. Another interesting twist is that last year he was seen by a family member in the UK. She informed BB and was told they had managed to trace him. A couple of months ago she had a conversation with them and they told her that he was now also paying monthly payments but that HIS case was separate and being dealt by someone else and that she still owed the full amount!!!! His payments had nothing to do with what SHE owed...... even though they had made her liable for the full amount.

[alanfromderby]

Yes, that's what brought me over to your thread.

[stan5131]

Sorry Alan, didnt realise you had replied. Have started new thread under Bradford and Bingley. Thanks mate.

[natwesttookmymoney]

"A couple of months ago she had a conversation with them and they told her that he was now also paying monthly payments but that HIS case was separate and being dealt by someone else and that she still owed the full amount!!!! His payments had nothing to do with what SHE owed...... even though they had made her liable for the full amount."

 

Angela, this is past the casual or self-help. She MUST see a solicitor.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I think their case has as many holes as a Swiss cheese.

 

NB - LOOK AT MY MAIN THREAD. DO IT NOW AND GET YOURSELF A PARACHUTE ACCOUNT.

[stan5131]

Hi Westy. I am at home today with what I think is tonsilitis (if thats how you spell it).

 

My sister first went to see a solicitor when she became aware of the debt to get advice on the "jointly and severally" issue. She was told that this was quite right and she could do nothing but pay it. Should she see a solicitor now or wait until the information on charges comes back?

 

Off to Lloyds tomorrow.

[natwesttookmymoney]

IMHO, she shouldn't see the same solicitor as last time who wasn't much help at all, it would appear. Did she not have a solicitor when she got divorced? Give me some time and I'll come up with a few points and questions to put to the legal eagles.

[alanfromderby]

Okay, finally found the correct thread!!

 

There are several issues with this, and before they can be resolved your sister would need to write to the DCA to clarify the exact breakdown of the alleged debt. I would suggest having a look at the National Debtline site, as they have some excellent information and template letters for mortgage shortfalls:

 

National Debtline, for FREE CONFIDENTIAL and INDEPENDENT ADVICE call 0808 808 4000

 

If the money that is owed is interest and charges, then the limitation is 6 years. If it is capital then it is 12 years. However, there may be other issues, such as underselling, that need to be investigated.

 

Certainly, until the debt is properly proved, I would not consider agreeing to any repayments.

[stan5131]

Ok, my sister received her SAR back this morning. We are going to go through these later today so I will post further. At a quick glance, there are lots of "additional interest charges" (some for several hundred pounds). Does anyone know what these might be. Also lots of legal fees for £500 and £600. I will be again later today.

[alanfromderby]

It may be that when the loan was in arrears, they started to charge a higher interest rate.

 

However, the best thing to do is to included everything, and ask in the prelim that you require a full explanation of each of the charges, and a certified breakdown of the cost to Bradford & Bingley in relation to each of the charges.

 

I would add that failure to either refund the charges, or provide a proper breakdown, will result in court action, and that you will be asking the court to make an order that this information be disclosed under part 18 of the CPR.

[stan5131]

Just looking now. Every other month they have listed 'interest for period'. But funnily enough, there are hardly any penalty charges, the odd £70 admin fee, but nothing like what you would expect to see from a property that has been in and out of arrears and then repossessed. There are two litigation fees. one for £500 and one for £600. Redemption fee is £18,000. The house was bought for £23,000 10 years earlier. Shortfall is £4,600. No mention of how much house was sold for but there is an auction fee of £1,600 in there. Are we right in assuming that they must have sold the house for around £13,000 ten years after it was bought for £23,000. Do you think they have disguised penalty charges as interest? Also Alan, do you have a link to the site which tells you how much a propery was worth in a particular year. Thanks Alan.

[stan5131]

nb There are pages and pages showing payment then straight after returned payment which is actually the same amount. no penalty charges showing for those!!!! They are likely to be the only company that dont charge for this if this is so.

[alanfromderby]

Sorry, have not got the link to the housing price index. Looks as though they ma have loaded the interest rate - which is a back-door way of applying penalties.

 

Certainly the under-selling issue has to be investigated, and the ERC seems excessive - and, of course, you did not cancel the mortgage, they did. Although, I don't confess to be an expert on ERC's - that is zootscoots domain.

[alanfromderby]

The other thing to check is whether they have capitalised the charges. Sometimes, rather than charge them to the payment account each month, they will just add them to the capital at the end of the year.

[zootscoot]

Hi Stansfield,

 

You can find out sold prices here:

 

House Prices - House Price Index - Rightmove

 

When you say redemption fee 18,000, do you mean that is just the fee for discharging the mortgage or that was the redemption figure ie the sums outstanding at the time the mortgage was redeemed?

 

Do you know if the mortgage was a regulated agreement under the Consumer Credit Act 1974?

[stan5131]

Hi, seems like the 18,000 was final figure outstanding before the property was sold.

[stan5131]

also what seems incredible is that there are hardly any penalty charges even though the property was in and out of arrears for a couple of years. there was apparently no payments made for seven months yet no admin charges!!!! seems odd.

[alanfromderby]

also what seems incredible is that there are hardly any penalty charges even though the property was in and out of arrears for a couple of years. there was apparently no payments made for seven months yet no admin charges!!!! seems odd.

 

I refer you to post 17.

[stan5131]

Thanks for that Alan. We are putting together a letter. There are lots of things we need to query i.e. sometimes three different amounts of interest in 1 month. Also lots of entries saying "insurance related" these add up to quite a bit too.

[alanfromderby]

I would list EVERYTHING that you think looks out of the ordinary, and then put them to justify it.

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, Angela

 

Sorry I was slightly the worse for drink when I got your messages. However, it seems like you've been getting some good advice and support even without me!!

 

I agree with alanfromderby - query everything. That includes

the original Court Order. Has your sister ever seen it? What does it say? Was she served properly before the Court hearing? Did they make every effort to get in contact with her? What efforts did they make? Was she given a chance to put her side of the case and defend herself? If the house was repo'd, what were the proceeds of sale and how were they allocated? Why wasn't the mortgage completely redeemed? Had every effort been made to secure the best possible price? If it wasn't sold at a price that was in line with the market, why not?

 

If you want any copies of letters I sent to B&B's solicitors, PM me, either with an email address or, if you're not comfortable with that, then just say to include them in teh body of the reply. Happy either way.

 

Apologies for my weakness again!

Westy

[stan5131]

Thanks Westy. We have made a list of questions for B&B. We doubt very much that they will answer any questions over the phone but she is going to give it a try tomorrow. When that fails, would be great to have copies of those letters. Will pm you tomorrow. Cheers