Indigo - "Penalty Notice" - Maidstone East station Car park [Southeastern Trains]

[DragonFly1967]

I think that depends on their wording on the signs dx, if they're classed as an "agent" of the TOC, they'd probably have the right to take you to court. But that doesn't belie the fact that they probably won't as you rightly say, they wouldn't get any money.

 

Incidentally, the average Magistrates court fine for this sort of thing is probably about £75. So even if Indigo or the TOC did take you to court and won, you'd still save money over what they're 'demanding'

[dx100uk]

yes the important bit right at the bottom of the sign is blurred....

[DragonFly1967]

Ascoli. Back in post 8 you said that there was no ticket displayed on the car. Was a ticket to park paid for and not displayed? Or was an app used to pay, so that there was no ticket? Or you just didn't pay?

 

Makes no odds to me, I just want to know which angle to come at this from.

[ascoli]

yes the important bit right at the bottom of the sign is blurred....

 

I will get a clearer photo of the bottom half for you hopefully today

[ascoli]

Ascoli. Back in post 8 you said that there was no ticket displayed on the car. Was a ticket to park paid for and not displayed? Or was an app used to pay, so that there was no ticket? Or you just didn't pay?

 

Makes no odds to me, I just want to know which angle to come at this from.

 

No ticket was paid for (mainly because of the extortionate price of it for a few hours)

[DragonFly1967]

No ticket was paid for (mainly because of the extortionate price of it for a few hours)

 

Right, ok.

 

Then there's not really a great deal you can appeal here. As you've not paid you are in breach of byelaw 14. And although I'd normally say that you should pay up, anything that takes money out of the pockets of the likes of Indigo gets my vote.

 

 

So, you're going to have to approach this from a different angle. They've got you bang to rights on the byelaw offence, so all you can do now is try and string this out as long as possible to try and run them out of time to take any action against you. The letter you've got from the "Debt Recovery Prosecution Service" is actually from London & Southeastern Railways who are obviously the TOC.

 

Now, this demand would appear to be for £100 increasing to £165 if you don't pay within 14 days. However, there is nothing in the Railway byelaws that allows them to increase that penalty for a mere PCN. It does mention additional costs if they have clamped or removed & stored your vehicle, but they didn't do that.

 

So. For now, I'd do absolutely nothing.

 

Wait for them to send you a further demand for £165. Note any date by which you must pay that, and then fire off a letter to them (a couple of working days before that date, 2nd class)) asking what part of the railway byelaws allows them to increase the penalty from £100 to £165.

 

That should take them a few more days to work out, then a few more to reply... Tick-tock

[ascoli]

I would normally always pay for my parking there, but the constant un-advertised price rises made me angry. It adds up a lot when you park there daily.

 

Is that £100 an arbitrary amount as a fine?

And surely it'd cost them more than that to take me to court anyway?

Edited June 27, 2018 by dx100uk
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[DragonFly1967]

The penalty is set in the byelaws, so there's not really a lot that can be said about that. What it actually says is "the owner of any motor vehicle..... left in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area.

 

So as a penalty of £100 is displayed on the signage, there's not really an argument against that as they've followed all of the necessary rules. Threatening/attempting/or actually increasing the penalty to £165 however, is arbitrary. Unless they have clamped or removed and stored your vehicle (which in this case they have not (it's a grey area as to whether they still have the right to clamp (but that's a different argument))) there is no provision in the railway byelaws for them to increase the penalty by adding any additional charges.

 

The penalty is £100. That's it. They could take you to Magicourt and you could lose and you could be ordered to pay a level 3 fine which is, I think, up to £1,000. Out of that, the TOC will see £0.00 but they'll still have the expense of getting you to court in the first place. So it would cost them a lot more than £100 to take you to court. There's the cost of court time, the cost of preparing and then prosecuting their case. So, the question is will they?

 

In 2016, the last year for which figures are currently published (that I can find at least).

 

In England & Wales there are some 1,600 railway stations (to give you a sense of scale). Out of all of those stations and all of those associated car parks, breach of Byelaw 14(3) "parking without paying" was prosecuted only 147 times. Of those 147, only 69 were found guilty and fined. I can't find any concrete information on how much they were fined, but the articles I have read are all less than £100.

 

 

Ultimately, if you did actually receive a summons, I'd offer to settle directly with the TOC out of court for a fiver. Then they'd be £5 up instead of £X out of pocket

[dx100uk]

But all the cases the claimant was the drps or the railway co..and NOT a private parking conpany??

[DragonFly1967]

DRPS is specific to London & Southeastern Railway (it's them, T/A DRPS). But yes, only the TOC can take the prosecution.

 

All Indiglo could do would be to take it to County, and a (proper) Penalty Charge Notice is completely outside of the CC's jurisdiction, so that would never happen no matter what Indiglo might like to threaten on their Mickey Mouse tickets.

[ericsbrother]

we need to see the tariif notice on the ticket machine as well as the offer masde already posted.

 

As they say the land is covered by byelaw 14 but indigo isnt on the list of authorised persons or entities so they cant demand anything.

 

They therefore cant sue you as they have no locus standi

Again the bit about the penalty going up to £160 is tosh, not on their sign so not allowable under bylaw 14(4)

 

they have to want to take the matter to court as a prosecution and they dont get the money, that goes to the treasury so they spend more money to get nothing.

Edited June 28, 2018 by dx100uk
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[ascoli]

Does it make a difference that the NTK (if that's what that letter actually is) is not from Indigo, but is from London & Southeastern Railway?

 

 

I've also attached the bottom of that sign that was cut off

 

we need to see the tariif notice on the ticket machine as well as the offer masde already posted.

As they say the land is covered by byelaw 14 but indigo isnt on the list of authorised persons or entities so they cant demand anything. They therefore cant sue you as they have no locus standi Again the bit about the penalty going up to £160 is tosh, not on their sign so not allowable under bylaw 14(4)

Basically they have to want to take the matter to court as a prosecution and they dont get the money, that goes to the treasury so they spend more money to get nothing.

 

I will take a photo of the ticket machine when I'm next there

parking2.pdf

[DragonFly1967]

Does it make a difference that the NTK (if that's what that letter actually is) is not from Indigo, but is from London & Southeastern Railway?

 

Yes, but you have the advantage because they're trying it on, as I said in my posts earlier

[ascoli]

Yes, but you have the advantage because they're trying it on, as I said in my posts earlier

 

Should I just start counting down the 15 weeks until 6 months is up, or does the 6 months not apply if it's the railway contacting me and not Indigo?

[DragonFly1967]

Clocks already ticking. They have until 12th Oct to summons you.

 

This is where wasting their time with questions comes in to it, when the time comes.

[ascoli]

Clocks already ticking. They have until 12th Oct to summons you.

 

This is where wasting their time with questions comes in to it, when the time comes.

 

What would your first question to London/Southeastern Rail be? And when would you send it?

 

(Sorry for all the questions, but it's a good help )

[DragonFly1967]

See Post #31

[ascoli]

See Post #31

 

Ah apologies!

 

What are the chances of them ignoring the letters and just proceeding straight to a summons?

[DragonFly1967]

Well, there are never any guarantees, but if they can't/don't/won't justify their own actions, then the chances of them actually winning a court case 'beyond reasonable doubt' start to get quite slim.

 

And if the law that they are attempting to prosecute you under does not allow them to increase the penalty (and it doesn't), then the whole thing starts to unravel.

[ericsbrother]

Look,

they want the money,

they are not interested in spending a small fortune on dragging you in front of the beak when they cant get a bean out of you as a result and may yet get the case dismissed for technical reasons regarding authority for Indigo to be involved in any process.

 

AS Df says appealing and then appealing to POPLA may well run the clock down as by the time they have the appeals heard and then sent out another reminder for you to pay up october will be upon us

[DragonFly1967]

AS Df says appealing and then appealing to POPLA may well run the clock down

 

Oh, that's a whole new can of worms. POPLOL can't adjudicate on Byelaw offences, it's outside of their remit.

 

This means that apart from Indiglo themselves (who will 99.9% of the time dismiss appeals without even considering them (there's no profit in allowing appeals)) there is no route of appeal unless and until the TOC take you to Magicourt.

 

Doesn't sound fair, does it?

[ericsbrother]

But they are BPA members so I reckon they cant do anything whilst you go through the appeals procedure even though we all know it is pointless.

it will cost them money and the appeal can be as simple as Indigo have no locus standi so cant claim anything for breach of conditions.

Let the POPLA decide .

 

i would place money of them telling the OP that they have sided with indigo and he should pay up and not consider the legal merits of either side.

They have done this before but importantly it will run the clock down whilst indigo think they have a chance of grabbing some moolah.

 

it will only be when they rumble that it is a time waster they will move things on.

If they have contacted the DVLA they arent likely to later on say that they know there was no grounds for them to do so and it all has nothing to do with them guv.

Edited June 28, 2018 by dx100uk
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