Parking with Ease - ANPR PCN White Moss Carpark Lake District - NTK received

[Fredo]

Hi everyone,

 

It's been many many years since I last had a parking ticket (probably 30), but that all changed when a 'Parking Charge

- Notice to Keeper letter' popped through my letterbox this morning from 'Parking With Ease'.

Given the circumstances around this charge

I thought it best to seek some advice from anyone on here that understands the legalities of a charge like this.

Here's the background to how I received it:

 

I took a trip to the Lake District a few weeks ago.

Parking charges in the LD,

for anyone who doesn't know,

are both extortionate and EVERYWHERE.

Most come in the form of the regular Pay and Display type.

However, this one car park we went to had something I'd never seen before

 

- a camera captures your number plate when you enter and you key your plate number into a machine when you leave.

The machine then tells you how much you owe based on the time it recorded you entering.

 

we wandered off to walk the dogs and I didn't take note of the time.

When we came back I went over to the machine and keyed in my number plate.

The machine then informed me that it couldn't find my plate in its records.

I tried again, and again.

Still no joy.

The machine then prompted me to enter my plate details along with how long I'd been there so that it could work out my parking fee.

I must admit this got my back up

- what's the point in having an 'intelligent' parking system if it doesn't work and the customer has to try and remember when they arrived.

Having already paid £70+ during the week at other car parks I thought "sod it" and drove away.

This happened on the 17th of Aug.

 

today,

the 10th Sept,

the letter arrives.

On the letter it states that I parked at 15:37:40 and left at 16:50:30 (hrs:min:sec).

That may be correct,

I don't know... and I'm not sure how they'd know either seeing as their machine said it had no record of my arrival.

I can understand how they got my plate leaving,

but if they knew what time I entered why didn't the machine bring it up?

 

They don't provide any photographic evidence of my arrival or departure,

I have no way of telling if their claim is true.

What I'd like to know from any experts on here who can help is

where do I stand legally on this?

Do they have sufficient grounds to make this demand?

Do I have sufficient grounds to request photographic confirmation of my arrival/departure times?

Should I just pay the fine and put this down to experience?

I've attached a copy of the letter I received to this post, front and back pages.

 

I know I probably shouldn't have left without paying something, but after a week of rip-off parking

(machines that only let you park for a minimum of two hours, that won't give change, that will happily accept overpayment but won't tag on the time for it)

I'd just about had enough.

The whole parking experience is enough to put me off going to the Lake District ever again!

 

Any help/guidance that can be offered would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[dx100uk]

welcome aboard.

 

firstly IT IS NOT A FINE.

 

its a speculative invoice

 

have a read of these threads

https://cse.google.co.uk/cse?cx=partner-pub-0964707606882478:652l7hswbgv&ie=UTF-8&q=park+with+ease+lake+district&sa=Search+CAG#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=park%20with%20ease%20lake%20district&gsc.page=1

same private company same area

should give some things to read

and then come back and ask any questions you need answering.

[dx100uk]

opps just spotted their fatal flaw

the NTK is outside of 14 days since the 'offence'

 

bang!!

 

dx

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

Park with Ease are members of the navel gazing IPC and as such, any slight on their part will be ignored but it won't be if they ever tried it on in court.

 

Firstly, The pay machine couldn't find your number plate to pay so the camera must have got your number plate a bit wrong but when a manual check of the CCTV showed up your plate, they thought they could gain from this.

 

let us be very clear.

Unless PWE have the authority from the landowner to take court action, there is nothing they can do.

They have no interest in the land whatsoever except how much they can fleece from unsuspecting members of the public who pay to keep the National Trust going. I'm digressing here.

 

 

To be allowed to gain access to the DVLA database, they must be associated with either the BPA or the IPC and follow the code of practice.

 

If they want you to pay for anything, they must take court action but of course PC members do not follow the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 so with their letters being timed out under PoFA, they will say it doesn't matter. Wrong!

 

To be able to take action against the vehicle keeper they must use PoFA to get the drivers details and if no details are forthcoming then they can go after the keeper.

 

PWE will assume that the driver is also the keeper and act accordingly which is why they take so few cases to court

 

Sorry for the ramble. Two options

 

1 Ignore

2 Appeal as the keeper but never admit to being the driver

[Fredo]

Guys,

 

Thanks very much for your prompt replies and for the time you've taken to pen them. Your help is much appreciated. Also my apologies for not knowing the correct terminology. I always thought this kind of thing was a fine or charge due to non-payment at the time. An invoice sounds better though

 

I do have a few follow on questions I hope you won't mind clarifying for me:

 

Is the 14 day limitation a cut-and-dried scenario? I.e. As they got back to me after the 14 day window is that an end to it and they have absolutely no power to progress this any further? Even if they do have permission from the landowner for court action is there any risk that this could escalate cost wise and I end up with a massive invoice which has escalated due to me ignoring them? If I do ignore it what is likely to happen next?

 

If I were to appeal as the keeper I'm just wondering what path that should take? Should I appeal on the grounds that their system wasn't functioning properly at the time? Should I appeal on the grounds that they're over their 14 day window (something, from what you've said I suspect they'll probably come back and say it doesn't matter)

 

I can handle threatening letters providing they have no grounds to pursue. What I don't want to find is that so many months down the line I get a court letter telling me I now owe them a huge some plus court costs Also, for non-payment of something like this can you be blacklisted?

 

Apologies once more for my rambling. This is all very new to me and I'd like to know clearly where I stand. I suppose a good question to ask would be if you were in my shoes what would you do?

 

Thanks again and for the warm welcome to the forum. Whatever the outcome of this I'll be sure to keep you updated. I note on quite a few of the previous threads the OP didn't come back to say what the conclusion was, which is a bit frustrating.

 

Best wishes

[ericsbrother]

The parking co must sned out the NTK within 12 days after the date of the alleged breach and it has to arrive on your doorstep within 14 days so they get 2 days for service.

 

If they fail to do this no keeper liabiliy is created and they can only chase the driver, who they may not presume is the keeper (but being IPC they incorrectly do and tell lies about this later)

so as long as you do not identify the driver at the time they are stuck without a known debtor.

 

They will then pass the matter on to a pet dca,

who will say the new bill is £160

but not explain how they arrive at this new enhanced figure

 

if you ignore them enough the matter gets pased to a rubbish solicitor, who will again make threats.

When it gets to this stage it is worth telling them they are wrong and if they continue their reckless action you will ask for a full costs recovery.

 

PWE are a one man operation so get things wrong all of the time.

 

Let things take their course.

They have sued a couple of times but lost very badly

but recently Gladstones (who own the IPC and the IAS) have been issuing claims like confetti.

 

When these track through the courts we will see if the parking co's are that keen on losing buckets of money for their recklessness as all of the defended ones are going badly for them and the judge4s are getting wise to their shinanigans.

[Fredo]

Many thanks again for the additional info and further clarification.

 

 

I was considering offering to pay the amount for the ticket which I would have paid anyway had their machine been working properly at the time, providing they send me photographic timestamped proof of entry and exit.

 

 

I'm guessing that would likely fall on deaf ears though.

If I appeal do I have to declare myself as the driver,

or is that automatically assumed if I appeal?

 

As this company is presumably acting on behalf of the owner of this car park,

how do I go about finding out who the owner is if I want to contact them directly and explain the circumstances to them?

[silverfox1961]

In any appeal, always say 'The Driver', never 'I' , Before sending anything, read and read it again to make sure of that.

 

PWE cannot take court action based on assumptions. If they went to court and said that they assume the keeper was also the driver, the judge would say 'ASSUME' No! 'PROOF'

[ericsbrother]

offering to pay for the ticket is accepting liability and they will go after you so dont even think about it.

 

car park belongs to NT so dont bother,

they have thousands of complaint a year and have done nothing in the last 3 years to improve matters.

[Fredo]

Just a quick update on this.

 

 

I got my early Christmas present from PWE this morning threatening 'Legal Action Pending'.

 

 

They've still failed to provide ANY evidence of the alleged infraction and I've now asked them for it three times, including again this morning via email.

 

 

They've just replied saying that they're pursuing legal action.

 

 

They were also late with their original NTK. Should I just sit and see what develops now?

 

Thanks guys.

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

It sounds like threats to me, as this isn't a claim form. See what the guys think when they get here.

 

HB

[dx100uk]

yep idle threats

let it run

 

 

no need to keep poking them.

[Homer67]

As DX says, more toilet paper, at this stage you don't need to reply further as you have advised them that no keeper liability has been formed as the NTK was out of date under POFA.

[ericsbrother]

they have lost court claims from here before and got told off into the bargain

so they wont want to go after anyone that looks like they will be awkward.

 

As you responded and they havent followed procedure they wont be in a hurry to go down the legal route.

 

Email allows them to harass you for free so block their email addy and make sure that they bounce back as undelivered.

 

Make them spned money of they want to harass you, this will again make them think again about the cost of doing so for no return.

[Fredo]

Thanks guys. I'll keep you updated as things progress.

[cumbriaman]

I've had a very similar experience more or less to the same dates as you,

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?470109-Parki-with-ease-(white-moss-rydal)

 

alleged breach towards the end of august,

out of time NTK

and a reminder on the 24th December.

 

 

I've complained to the land owner about the parking operator,

even involved the local MP and sent an appeal telling them where they've gone wrong

but still got the reminder for the first amount which I assumed should have gone up again by now all on a letter which isn't signed by anyone,

also never received any evidence or a response to my appeal