ross and roberts Bailiff, CAB and Council Tax - Help and Advice Needed

[Lady Python]

I know you're not asking this but; if you have a disability which affects your ability to work, you could claim ESA. After 13 weeks (or whenever they assess you; it'll be backdated) you should be put into a group and should receive some extra money.

 

My son was finally passed as fit to work by his consultant in May this year. He was in the old Income Support. He got hauled in by ATOS and they decided he was fit to work. He was actually happy about that because he really is chomping at the bit to get out and work...but...even though he's as healthy as anyone else now, some employers don't see it that way. He is on the work programme and been getting the qualifications he should have got when he was a teenager but was more in hospital than out of it and is flying through the tests with 96% and 100% pass marks. He really wants to work and I'm hoping someone will see his potential and take him on in the New Year.

 

I had a bad accident myself earlier in the year - badly broke my wrist and it's healed up all wrong. Now under a specialist hand hospital and they say even with an op it's unlikely to be any better than it is now. It's very weak, I can't bend my wrist properly and I always have pain and discomfort in it. I slipped badly at a dance class - the floor was covered in a slippery residue left by the polish the cleaners had been using and we'd been complaining about it for months. The inevitable happened and I went over backwards...splat...ouch. It is a council owned hall so now that I have up-to-date x-rays etc., I will be seeing a solicitor about that. Fortunately I can still type but I can't lift a kettle with my right hand and I'm right-handed.

 

However, because I have my late husband's pensions which take me over the government's £71 limit (£3 over) I don't qualify for JSA or ESA myself, only housing and council tax benefit.

 

Not easy living like this (well existing - can't call it living).

[Lady Python]

I just received a Court Summons this morning for non-payment of Council Tax for last year. At the time I was on benefits (after my husband died), had a serious injury myself and couldn't work. The Benefits Office made a complete mess of my claim going back to when my husband died. That is currently the subject of a Tribunal - I appealed which has been adjourned until next month. I have been taken to Court for just over £349 + the cost of the Court Action/Bailliffs fees. As this amount is subject to the original Tribunal, surely I should not be taken to Court for non-payment at this stage? What do I do now please?

[renegadeimp]

Ok. first thing to do is dont panic. You need to get all your paperwork in order to prove what has happened, so you can walk in to the court and show them. ALso remember its not a criminal court. The majority of LO's for Council tax are just mass stamped. If you turn up with the paperwork to prove its the councils fault, then the council will be forced to sort things out and not you.

[ploddertom]

Have you thought of contacting your local Councillor(s), explain what has happened and ask them to intervene on your behalf.

[outlawla]

My guess is the council will say they're permitted to apply for a liability order while a claim for benefit is in dispute. However, the Local Government Ombudsman – in certain circumstances – has found this to be unreasonable, as have other authorities, which is evident from several sources.

 

This guidance at paragraph 3.11 puts the situation in perspective (the Council Tax Practice Note No. 9):

"

3

.

11

A liability order may be made notwithstanding that the taxpayer is disputing the amount of council tax benefit which has been awarded or the fact that council tax benefit has been disallowed. The billing authority should, however, as a matter of best practice check that there is no outstanding benefit claim and refrain from taking enforcement action where such bona fide benefit claims have been received and are unresolved....

Also worth a look at is this !! "Recovery Action and the outstanding Council Tax Benefit claim"

 

And this post links to LGO reports and loads of other related info.

Edited April 21, 2013 by outlawla

[ss002d6252]

The LGO can only give their own opinion on what the council does - the LGO will admit in a large number of their decisions that the councils are acting legally but that the LGO themselves feel it was unfair.

 

If the council are following what the law says then , legally, they have done no wrong. The High Court have already determined that the council can continue collecting monies until such time as a final decision is made on benefit awards.

[outlawla]

The LGO can only give their own opinion on what the council does - the LGO will admit in a large number of their decisions that the councils are acting legally but that the LGO themselves feel it was unfair.

 

If the council are following what the law says then , legally, they have done no wrong. The High Court have already determined that the council can continue collecting monies until such time as a final decision is made on benefit awards.

 

What are we dealing with here, the legality or the reasonableness of the council's actions?

 

More to the point, should aggrieved charge payers be deterred from disputing unreasonable action because of a High Court judgment, when evidently account payers have had favourable outcomes despite "Regina v Bristol Magistrates' Court, Ex Parte Willsman and Another [1991]"?

[ss002d6252]

What are we dealing with here, the legality or the reasonableness of the council's actions?

 

And that is the crux - providing the council have acted legally (which it appears has happened) then the LGO will only rule on whether they think its reasonable or not - there's a big difference between what someone thinks is reasonable and what is legal.

[outlawla]

And that is the crux - providing the council have acted legally (which it appears has happened) then the LGO will only rule on whether they think its reasonable or not - there's a big difference between what someone thinks is reasonable and what is legal.

 

From my understanding, the LGO functions only in providing a token number of reports on key areas of maladministration (most complaints are turned down). The published reports may of course be cited by aggrieved persons in a bid to strengthen arguments, in the hope a local authority might be persuaded to U-turn on some unreasonable action.

 

From a legal perspective, actions taken in the circumstances being discussed may be argued as lawful, owing to case law and the relevant Statutory Instrument. However, one or two points need weighing up to conclude whether the actions are reasonable.

 

• Regulation 34(1) of SI 1992/613 allows the billing authority discretion as to whether it applies to the court for a liability order, so is not required to by law. The phrase used in the relevant part being: "the billing authority may....apply to a magistrates' court for an order...."
  

• It is policy for some, if not all councils to put a hold on recovery action pending disputes, etc. Brent Borough council for example, have a policy to inhibit recovery action in these circumstances.
  

3.2 Policy for inhibiting Summonses

 

3.2.1 A pre-summons vetting stage currently exists. This additional process has been established to ensure that Taxpayers are not summonsed whilst they have genuine outstanding matters with us. The vetting stage is undertaken by Capita. A pre summons list is produced containing the names and addresses of potential summons cases. The list is then cross checked against the items of work appearing in workflow including outstanding benefit claims, benefit appeals, complaints and Council Tax correspondence. Where appropriate a summons is not issued giving the Benefits Department/Capita time to resolve the enquiry.

 

• In the House of Lords (28 January 1992) a failed attempt was made to introduce an amendment (No. 164) to the Local Government Finance Bill, to the effect:
  

"

No enforcement order shall be made to recover any sum under this Act unless the court is satisfied that the authority has correctly determined whether there is an outstanding claim for council tax benefit in respect of that sum

."

Lord Henley in the same debate, although opposing the amendment, made it categorically clear the exclusion was to enable councils discretion in discounting vexatious claimants. Clearly the amendment was not blocked in order to give local authorities the green light to process 'en masse' such cases through the court.

"

Although I can appreciate and sympathise with the reason why the amendment was tabled, I can see no reason for changing that position for the council tax. If such a change was made, I am afraid it would leave the way open for taxpayers to avoid or delay their liability to pay the council tax by making bogus claims for benefit and causing those claims to be delayed by failing to provide the correct information. Most authorities will continue to act reasonably if approached by someone with an outstanding benefit claim and would not continue their recovery process until the claim was settled. That is the advice which has been given in a practice note issued by the Department of the Environment to all authorities on enforcement of the community charge and will be reiterated in guidance on enforcement of the council tax

.

[Lady Python]

I received a letter this morning from a debt collector acting on behalf of our local council. The name of the debt collector is Collectiva.

 

The debt they have been given by our council is for overpayment of housing benefit. This is in dispute and is currently the subject of an ongoing Benefits Tribunal Appeal which was adjourned and the final hearing has not yet been set.

 

I have another post about the alleged overpayment (this goes back to when my husband died in 2011) and have now called in the services of a solicitor.

 

What do I do about our local council and this debt collector?

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I've flagged this for the site team in case they have any input on the DCA side of things.

 

My best, HB

[Mr.P]

Respond with something along the lines of:

I do not acknowledge any debt with yourselves. The matter is currently in dispute with the council and has been referred to tribunal. Your attempts to preemptively recover an alleged debt makes a mockery of "due process" and could jeopardise your client's claim.

 

I respectfully suggest that you refer the matter back to your client pending the outcome of the tribunal hearings.

 

Any further contact from yourselves will be treated as harassment and may be reported to the relevant authorities.

[Lady Python]

Respond with something along the lines of:

 

Thankyou for that. Just had a call from a solicitor I tried to get. Seemingly, the government pulled their Legal Aid funding so I can't even get legal representation.

 

This whole thing is so wrong on so many counts.

 

I complied with EVERYTHING the benefits office asked for. I never tried to claim a single penny I wasn't entitled to. The only time I've had to claim benefit in my life.

 

I didn't ask for my husband to be seriously ill and die but it seems the benefits office people think people like me are worse - and get treated worse than criminals.

 

I am so angry - and scared. I don't know where to turn anymore.

[estellyn]

Thankyou for that. Just had a call from a solicitor I tried to get. Seemingly, the government pulled their Legal Aid funding so I can't even get legal representation.

 

This whole thing is so wrong on so many counts.

 

I complied with EVERYTHING the benefits office asked for. I never tried to claim a single penny I wasn't entitled to. The only time I've had to claim benefit in my life.

 

I didn't ask for my husband to be seriously ill and die but it seems the benefits office people think people like me are worse - and get treated worse than criminals.

 

I am so angry - and scared. I don't know where to turn anymore.

 

Write to the council, the collction agency, and send a copy to the Tribunals service, stating that according to Upper Tribunal decision CH/1757/2009, recovery of overpayments should be suspended pending the outcome of an ongoing appeal regarding the overpayment in question. Then give details of your appeal - appeals reference, date you appealled, date of first hearing that was adjourned (and why), and that you are awaiting the date of the next hearing.

 

Insist that all overpayment recovery ceases until there is an appeal outcome, and state in the letter that a copy has been sent to the Tribunals Service.

[Lady Python]

Write to the council, the collction agency, and send a copy to the Tribunals service, stating that according to Upper Tribunal decision CH/1757/2009, recovery of overpayments should be suspended pending the outcome of an ongoing appeal regarding the overpayment in question. Then give details of your appeal - appeals reference, date you appealled, date of first hearing that was adjourned (and why), and that you are awaiting the date of the next hearing.

 

Insist that all overpayment recovery ceases until there is an appeal outcome, and state in the letter that a copy has been sent to the Tribunals Service.

 

I wrote a letter to Collectiva today using the wording Mr P gave me and sent it Recorded Delivery, also taking a copy for the Court.

 

Will also write to the Council as you've suggested. Thanks for that

[estellyn]

I wrote a letter to Collectiva today using the wording Mr P gave me and sent it Recorded Delivery, also taking a copy for the Court.

 

Will also write to the Council as you've suggested. Thanks for that

 

This is NOT an ordinary debt matter, and a copy of the letter I suggested should go to the council, collection agency and Tribunals service.

[Lady Python]

This is NOT an ordinary debt matter, and a copy of the letter I suggested should go to the council, collection agency and Tribunals service.

 

I know this is not an ordinary debt Estellyn. Also, the amount they are trying to claim is over £2000. The Appeal Tribunal Judge who reviewed the case originally in December last year picked up that their figures were wrong. I have a copy of a letter from the Council to the Court acknowledging this. The true figure (thanks to that Judge being vigilant) is just over £900 - a big difference from £2000.

 

I will get the letters you suggested typed up when I go to work (my printer at home is broken). Will submit copies to the Court this afternoon as I have other documents just arrived by Special Delivery from one of the pension providers that also need to go to the Court.

 

Again, thank you for your help and I will keep you posted of what happens.

[Lady Python]

Not sure if I'm posting this in the correct forum or not but really need some advice on how to deal with a serious situation regarding council tax.

 

I received 4 letters in triplicate (each in individual envelopes) through the post a couple of days ago.

 

They are about council tax arrears going back to 2010. My husband died in May 2011 and the debt has passed to me.

 

This is one of the letters received:

 

COMMITTAL RECOMMENDATION

 

Re: Arrears of: Council Tax

Amount Outstanding £xxxx.xx

 

We have made various personal calls to your property for non-payment of Council Tax under a Court Order issued on 17 Jun 2013.

 

You have failed to make an arrangement or make any attempt to clear the outstanding debt, therefore we have no option than to return the Court Order endorsed refusal to pay and recommend a Committal/Bankruptcy Hearing.

 

To avoid this serious action full payment is required with immediate effect.

 

Part Payment will not prejudice proceedings.

 

All payments to be made to Ch-----rs Limited

 

On line Payments www.

24 Hour Payment Line: 0845 xxx xxxx

 

Payment by Debit Card £1.00 Credit Card 2.5%

 

I did have an agreement with the council in place but due to the benefits office getting things very wrong in 2012 I was unable to continue to pay the amount agreed. I am now in a position to make a firm offer of payment but only at what I can afford. My son lives at home but he is unemployed and as he's had his share of serious health problems (kidney transplantee), he's finding it quite difficult to get a job. He's applying for anything and everything.

 

Contrary to what these bailiffs/debt collectors are saying, I have never refused to pay the council tax. I have nothing of value, no fancy TV or anything. Everything I own is either very old or secondhand. If they had me committed to jail, I would lose everything. My job, my house (rented from the council) so my son would be out on the street.

 

Also, I have never had a statement with what I've paid, nor what my late husband paid before he died. I am also sure one of these "debts" was paid before he died and there is no breakdown of exactly what is owed. The total of the 4 letters comes to just over £3200.

 

They also say in their letters that they have made numerous calls to my property. As far as I'm aware they have not.

 

Also, I did not know there were Court Orders against me. Liability Orders yes, but Court Orders, no.

 

I need to deal with this as a matter of urgency but really need to know the best way to go about this.

 

I really want to get rid of this debt as I feel I can't move on with my life until I do.

 

Any advice would be very greatly appreciated.

[i hate bailiffs]

You are right they are liability orders they are playing on words as never a court order

If it was to go to court the judge could remit all or part of the debt

 

Not sure how it works with your late husbands part of things

But does not sound right

Deal in writing to council and local MP

sorry for your loss

[ploddertom]

You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

 

You do need to speak to the Council quite urgently to try & sort something out. It may pay you to do this via your local Councillor(s).

[ploddertom]

You should also send off to the Bailiffs for a breakdown of the fees they are charging as it is not unknown for them to have got a set of fees that are according to Enid Blyton instead of legislation. This is better sent initially by email followed by a copy in the post.

 

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

 

We can help you sort fact from fiction when you get a reply.

[ploddertom]

The letter you have received from the Bailiffs is a relatively standard one and has had the desired effect by stirring you into action. There is nothing that says you have to deal with or speak to a Bailiff. It is the Council that have the last say on whether or not they apply for a Committal Hearing, if you have not paid anything then it could be hard to argue against but if you have a history of payments then they will find it difficult. If you are wilfully refusing to pay then the ultimate sanction can be a spell at Her majesty's pleasure and you still have the debt to pay when you come out.

[tomtubby]

Lady Python.

 

Sadly, there is the right to send a debtor to prison if they refuse to pay their council tax but such action is very RARE. Furthermore BEFORE any such committal proceedings can be implemented a bailiff MUST have attempted to enforce the Liability Order. In your case, as the bailiff has been unable to collect the debt he is returning the case back to the council. Let me explain will now happen.

 

Firstly, there is very little point now in paying the bailiff as they are legally entitled to take as a 1st charge their bailiff fees.

 

The local authority will need to consider whether to take further action against you and this is why it is so very important that debtors ( such as you) who are unable to pay WRITE to the council to outline their circumstances and make a payment proposal. By doing this the council will be aware of your background ( ie widowed and with a with a son would appears "vulnerable" ) but most importantly by outlining a payment proposal the local authority would not be able to make an application for committal given that a payment proposal is EVIDENCE that you are not refusing to pay your council tax.

 

You must write to the council and you need to ascertain how much each Liability Order is for and what fees have been applied to each account.

 

PS: The "court orders" referred to by the bailiff are the Liability Orders.

[Lady Python]

Got up this morning to find a Notice of Bailiffs Attendance. The time on this is 6.17am. I was still asleep at that time. I'm surprised my dog didn't bark. They state on this that they are coming back after 6pm tonight.

 

They are not giving me any time to arrange payment with the council or even make an appointment with them. They state on this note that they are going to remove my goods and chattels.

 

For the record, I have paid an amount to the council via their internet payments system. It wasn't a great amount of money but at least something towards these arrears (which I dispute as being correct anyway).

 

I will probably still be at work when these people come back. I have told my son not to talk to them, not to let them in and if they try to force entry, call the police. Why these people are still allowed to persecute and harrass in this day and age when there are other means of recovering money available, I do not know. Sometimes it feels like we're still living in Dickensian times.

 

I need to move fast on this (I'm at work at present and waiting for the boss to come back as I will probably have to get time off in a hurry today) so need to know how to deal with this latest development.

[Daz1979]

Best thing to do is contact the council to check the payment has gone through and explain to the council that payment has been made and ask them to stop bailiffs making a visit. They might contact the bailiffs and stop them making another visit.

 

More advice here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-bailiffs